GE - UFP: what kind of relationship should be?

[Typhonis 1]

Hmmm well since the Empire appears to be run by humans and the Federation is lousy with them .they may conclude that the Empire is going to cut a deal with the Federation and let them "rule" the Alpha Quadrant in all but Imperial name so they may lauch a preemptive strike on the UFP .

[SCVN 2812]

I think a full scale conflict between the Empire and the Federation is unlikely.

For one: fighting a war with the Federation would require taking ships from the Empire which were previously assigned to the various tasks assigned to them such as hunting for rebels, maintaining a pressence to discourage rebellion, putting down rebellions, conquering planets, and patrolling sectors bordering non-Imperial space. Judging by the films exclusively The Imperial Star Destroyer appears to be the workhorse of the Imperial fleet and at least in all the books I've read, they are the most commonly used capital ship, and according to a quote from a novel they numbered in the 25,000s +/- a few thousand (which on this scale really doesn't matter much). With over a million worlds in it's grip (arguably most or at least a significant portion not particularly happy about being under Imperial rule), keeping this massive empire together would be no easy task. Constant vigilance and a stardestroyer or two ready to come in turbolasers blazing at the first sign of rebellion is neccessary although the speed of hyperspace travel negates the dissolution of the imperial fleet somewhat in this role however not in the rebel hunting role which had the imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a "vain effort to engage the rebels."

Considering the fact that the Empire is dealing with an open and heavily armed rebellion in it's home galaxy and the fact that fear of imperial retribution is pretty much all that's keeping many worlds from openly supporting the rebellion (redistributing the Empire's forces to ensure protection of extra-galactic interests in a galaxy that is not under firm Imperial control would remove the cause of that fear - such as a significant number of stormtroopers garrissoned on the planet or a stardestroyer squadron stationed in the sector, for many worlds and cause the Empire headaches- at the very least). An unstable home galaxy is hardly going to make it very easy for the Empire to establish any sort of significant pressence in the Milky Way.

A quick scan of their ships is going to reveal that the Federation is not a very high threat to the Empire should they launch a pre-emptive strike. The sheer lack of the extreme (in both scale and technology level) infrastructure required to be of any use to the Empire that they would discover after scouting missions around their point of entry into the Milky Way would likely contribute to an overwhelming feeling of it not being worth their effort.

In all likelyhood the Federation would realize just out far out of their league the Empire is and just as they made peace with conquerors and oppressors of minor races before for the sake of peace, they would attempt to do so again. Since is nothing of any significant value in the Milky Way except raw materials which can be accessed much easier in their home galaxy where the technology and infrastructure they are used to is prevalent, the Empire would likely accept and establish a small defense perimeter around their end of the wormhole in order to thwart any unlikely treachery from the Federation or aggression from any aggressive races they were not able to contact and/or establish peaceful relations with.

Basically my take on it is that in the end it's logistics and a willingness to accept any reasonable peace that comes at a reasonable cost (and historical precedent shows that the Federation's standards for reasonable cost when it comes to achieving peace with other races are pretty low) that gives the Federation it's survival. After all, what exactly is the point in conquering somebody who has nothing of any signfiicant value except underdeveloped real estate in an area where the you have no established interests in the first place and even if you decide to conquer them anyway despite the overwhelming lack of anything useful except raw materials and man power which you allready have in spades back home and with either one requiring little extra development it's just going to turn around and bite you in the ass because in deploying sufficient forces for conquest, you've had to further weaken your forces at home, leaving them easier prey for rebels and domestic uprisings.

[AdmiralKanos]

Interesting argument. In effect, "the Empire wouldn't waste the effort" and "the Federation would take any action to avoid it". Makes sense, unless one side or the other does something reckless, paranoid, or stupid to incite hostilities.

For example, if Captain Janeway spent any time in Imperial space, I am confident that she would engender such anger and hatred that a full scale war would commence shortly.

[SCVN 2812]

It's actually well documented, on several occassions Janeway botched negotiations with alien species because she got on their nerves. A race called the Tak Tak comes to mind, she didn't bother to learn diplomatic protocol for them from any sources beforehand so she ended up insulting them by doing something stupid.

[LordShaithis]

In Chuck Sonnenburg's "Worlds Without End" fanfic, the Federation and Empire were intially allies, the Emperor seeing the Federation as a means of establishing a foothold in the new galaxy, that could be discarded or annexed when convenient.

[master_yoda]

I think a full scale conflict between the Empire and the Federation is unlikely.

For one: fighting a war with the Federation would require taking ships from the Empire which were previously assigned to the various tasks assigned to them such as hunting for rebels, maintaining a pressence to discourage rebellion, putting down rebellions, conquering planets, and patrolling sectors bordering non-Imperial space. Judging by the films exclusively The Imperial Star Destroyer appears to be the workhorse of the Imperial fleet and at least in all the books I've read, they are the most commonly used capital ship, and according to a quote from a novel they numbered in the 25,000s +/- a few thousand (which on this scale really doesn't matter much). With over a million worlds in it's grip (arguably most or at least a significant portion not particularly happy about being under Imperial rule), keeping this massive empire together would be no easy task. Constant vigilance and a stardestroyer or two ready to come in turbolasers blazing at the first sign of rebellion is neccessary although the speed of hyperspace travel negates the dissolution of the imperial fleet somewhat in this role however not in the rebel hunting role which had the imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a "vain effort to engage the rebels."

Considering the fact that the Empire is dealing with an open and heavily armed rebellion in it's home galaxy and the fact that fear of imperial retribution is pretty much all that's keeping many worlds from openly supporting the rebellion (redistributing the Empire's forces to ensure protection of extra-galactic interests in a galaxy that is not under firm Imperial control would remove the cause of that fear - such as a significant number of stormtroopers garrissoned on the planet or a stardestroyer squadron stationed in the sector, for many worlds and cause the Empire headaches- at the very least). An unstable home galaxy is hardly going to make it very easy for the Empire to establish any sort of significant pressence in the Milky Way.

A quick scan of their ships is going to reveal that the Federation is not a very high threat to the Empire should they launch a pre-emptive strike. The sheer lack of the extreme (in both scale and technology level) infrastructure required to be of any use to the Empire that they would discover after scouting missions around their point of entry into the Milky Way would likely contribute to an overwhelming feeling of it not being worth their effort.

In all likelyhood the Federation would realize just out far out of their league the Empire is and just as they made peace with conquerors and oppressors of minor races before for the sake of peace, they would attempt to do so again. Since is nothing of any significant value in the Milky Way except raw materials which can be accessed much easier in their home galaxy where the technology and infrastructure they are used to is prevalent, the Empire would likely accept and establish a small defense perimeter around their end of the wormhole in order to thwart any unlikely treachery from the Federation or aggression from any aggressive races they were not able to contact and/or establish peaceful relations with.

Basically my take on it is that in the end it's logistics and a willingness to accept any reasonable peace that comes at a reasonable cost (and historical precedent shows that the Federation's standards for reasonable cost when it comes to achieving peace with other races are pretty low) that gives the Federation it's survival. After all, what exactly is the point in conquering somebody who has nothing of any signfiicant value except underdeveloped real estate in an area where the you have no established interests in the first place and even if you decide to conquer them anyway despite the overwhelming lack of anything useful except raw materials and man power which you allready have in spades back home and with either one requiring little extra development it's just going to turn around and bite you in the ass because in deploying sufficient forces for conquest, you've had to further weaken your forces at home, leaving them easier prey for rebels and domestic uprisings.

It would take the Empire a few weeks or months at most to build a few thousand isd's (considering they built 60% of DS2 in 6 months.)

[Doomriser]

This is a good point. The Federation has more to fear from the Empire than the Empire has to fear from the Federation, so a hostile response may actually be more likely from the Federation side, as strange as this may seem for self-professed pacifists.

Suppose the Empire simply ignores the Federation as an insignificant gnat, and starts colonizing worlds in Federation space (putting the shoe on the other foot; the Federation has traditionally been the one to "invade through settlement"). Would the Federation accept this, or would they become agitated? Would they resist? Would they be stupid enough to start a war to protect their territorial claims? Remember that the Federation actually started the Dominion War by mining the Bajoran wormhole and blaming the Dominion for sending reinforcements to their Cardassian allies; would they try something similar here?

Here's an answer to your question in fanfic form:

"Expansion" by Michael January

http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/stories/expan.txt

[LMSx]

Actually, considering the size and scope of the Empire, it's just as likely that the wormhole will pop out somewhere near, say, Bakura or Endor, where there is no convenient Star Destroyer hanging out nearby.

I could imagine the Federation slowly (empthasis on slowly, due to warp travel) spreading a few spies in non-descript clothing out among the Outer Rim territories, to discover that there is a galaxy-spanning civilization in control. It's likely that any incursion into less populated space would be largely invisible, since few people, if any, would be interested in a few odd ships and people appearing in a population of trillions, if not quadrillions.

The obvious problem, of course, is the Federation "morality", which could get in the way of acquiring useful info. Obi-Wan seemed to have no moral qualm chopping off the arm of a hostile in Tatooine, so any spies would like to deal with more legitimate sources, which would in turn lead to more rapid discovery, finally resulting in a Imperial scout ship being sent over to the wormhole to discover where the hell these strange people are coming from.

Given a month or so of quiet intelligence-gathering, Michael's Federation assessment of the Extragalactic Empire page would then apply.

[Cpt_Frank]

It may be the wormhole remains undiscovered by the Empire until Starfleet 'shows' them where it is. But the first thing the Empire will do when they are in the ST galaxy is eleminating those annoying Borg.
The Feds will probably appreciate that, and then, the Empire will start to colonize, completely disregarding the backward Alpha Quad powers: They're not a threat, and with the time, they will be assimilated into the Empire.
Surely the Feds will launch some clumsy, foolish attack on the Empire sooner or later, and that is the point where their fate is sealed: They will be destroyed, and their worlds will be consolidated and integrated into the Empire.

[omegaLancer]

After meeting the first Imperial warship, it is very likily that after thinking it over the human Star fleet admirals would stage a coup, and hand over the federation in exchange of being made Moff in the newly acquire terrorities.

While Picard and other starfleet captains may object, they would either flee to join the rebels or be eliminated.. The higher up in the federation have shown behavior on many occassions to rival that of Emperor and Vader, and the Empire finding another island of human kind would welcome them with open arms...