GE - UFP: what kind of relationship should be?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2002-07-26 09:32am

There are crappy, pro-Trek fanfics that always imply that Imperials are just a bunch of stupid, trigger-happy people that seen everything as "Rebels". Thus give reason for both sides to fight each other.

*Spoiler warning!*

Mike Wong's fanfic gives us a paranoid officers (Commander Chang and Admiral Halsey) that provoked the Empire, give them sufficient reason to conquer the Feds.

*end of spoiler*

But what if no provocation ever happens on the first place? Will the Empire and the Federation start fighting each other?

What kind of first contact would be? And what's the follow-ups? Trade agreement? Non-aggression treaty? Student exchange? Poor country aid? (because, in the Empire's scope & views, the Federation might just be a poor, underdeveloped country in the corner of Milky Way galaxy)

IMHO, Imperial officers are *NOT* just a bunch of barbaric, trigger-happy officers who assume everything they encounter as 'rebels'. Yes, they are expansionists, but WAY more subtle and clever than, let say, the Borg.

Besides, why should bother with the Feds at all? I'm sure His Majesty Emperor Palpatine has greater picture in his mind: the entire Milky Way galaxy. Yet, the Empire need a reason, because I believe His Majesty cares about public opinion and stability among the Imperial citizens.

Here's my scenario: The Feds will be desperately ally themselves with the Empire due to increasing threat of the Borg or the Dominion (heck, they allied themselves with the So'na in "Insurrection", due to more or less same reasons), and the Empire will use the Feds as a tool to conquest the Milky Way Galaxy.

How about your scenario? Anyone?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-07-26 10:33am

The initiative in this case depends on the Empire, which in turn depends on how the Captain on the scene decides things. If the Captain keeps his cool and analyzes the situation, he'll probably soon find out that based on preliminary readings from such indices as power generation levels, the Federation ship is probably not a significant threat. That will go a long way towards making him feel safe, and people in safe, confident positions don't shoot quickly, because they think they can afford to hold.

Both sides will be actively trying to communicate with each other. Assuming that the Federation ship doesn't emit a particle of the week that the Imperial ship sees as a threat, they'll eventually find a common frequency somewhere.

The Imperial commander will probably be harsh - he's a military officer, after all, but the Federation commander will probably stay cool. Even if he demands that they surrender because they're suspected to be Rebels or smugglers, the Federation commander would probably put his hands up to avoid provoking them and allowing the Imperial officers to come on board. If they do that, then there should be peace, if the Federation commander tries to act tough, he disappears.

There's about an 80% chance of it going relatively peacefully. Considering the remoteness of the Federation from the base of Imperial power, there is a significant chance that weak as they are, they'll be offered one or two out of three choices.

1) The Corporate Sector kind of thing, near total non-interference.
2) Aid, but there will be more Imperial presence.
3) Make the Federation an Imperial Sector completely.

If the Moff in charge is kind enough to offer 1, the Federation will bicker but if the Moff isn't too trigger happy, they can probably get by peacefully. If 2, the Federation will bicker over how much Imperial presence is allowed, but if the Moff has a pretty good temper, there MIGHT still be peace. If they offer 3, war. War? Massacre!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-26 10:46am

I think Kaz is underestimating how well an Imperial politician could spindoctor becoming vassals.

Think about it. The local power structure will be retained, vastly superior technology will be moved in, actual military training, and of course, BDZing of local worlds that offer trouble.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-26 12:18pm

This is a good point. The Federation has more to fear from the Empire than the Empire has to fear from the Federation, so a hostile response may actually be more likely from the Federation side, as strange as this may seem for self-professed pacifists.

Suppose the Empire simply ignores the Federation as an insignificant gnat, and starts colonizing worlds in Federation space (putting the shoe on the other foot; the Federation has traditionally been the one to "invade through settlement"). Would the Federation accept this, or would they become agitated? Would they resist? Would they be stupid enough to start a war to protect their territorial claims? Remember that the Federation actually started the Dominion War by mining the Bajoran wormhole and blaming the Dominion for sending reinforcements to their Cardassian allies; would they try something similar here?

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-26 12:23pm

If someone like Lord Vader is in command of the fleet that makes first contact well there will be fireworks but if it's someone like Thrawn then there may be some type of peace.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-26 12:24pm

I had another idea; what if the Empire starts annexing primitive worlds, since those are the easiest to annex? What if they don't even do it violently, but simply show up with their advanced technology and start assimilating these worlds into the Empire through peaceful means?

Would the Federation stand by and allow this in their territory, given all of their "First Contact Protocol" and "Non-Interference" blathering? If they fight, would they be admitting that they consider these planets Federation property even though they aren't Federation citizens? If they consider it none of their business, how long would it be before the Empire has such a large presence that they can simply declare ownership of the Federation's territory through population counts and squatter's rights?

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-26 12:28pm

Yes, the Federation would be stupid enough to start a war to protect their territorial expansion. Although first they would complain about Imperial forces landing on Federation colonies in Imperial space and siezing control. The Federation would sit back and do nothing, trying to whip up sympathy from their public and their neighbors and allies with the "woe is me" strategy.

Finally, after the Empire had at last "crossed the line", the Federation would try to launch some kind of sneak attack to show the Empire their resolve on the false assumption that the Empire would back down from anything once threatened.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-26 12:31pm

I don't think the feds would dare attack any Imperial vessels once they realise what they're fighting. The power ratings on even old vessels like dreadnoughts would soar off their charts! More likely the feds would try and get their hands on the technology in an attempt to unravel its secrets for their own use, whether that would work or not is debatable but their admiralty would have to be more incompetent than even we imagine for them to attack a foe that has massive advantages in every area of a battle and could squash them like a bug,

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-07-26 01:06pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:I don't think the feds would dare attack any Imperial vessels once they realise what they're fighting. The power ratings on even old vessels like dreadnoughts would soar off their charts!

If they can scan it. Remember that they may not be able to scan through Imperial hulls at all. And an Imperial vessel won't be running at peak power all the time; its emissions when idling or cruising at sublight would be unremarkable.

Moreover, they will be unable to determine its offensive output, as they are unfamiliar with their weapons technology (remember how they couldn't even tell that the Borg cube possessed any weapons the first time they encountered them, because they were unfamiliar with the technology). People don't understand how sensor technology works; it's not magic.

You generally identify emissions and interactions, and then you compare those with the emissions and interactions for known phenomena. For unknown phenomena, you have no database of emissions and interactions to compare your readings with, so you are left scratching your head. That's why Federation sensors tend to be useless the first time they encounter something new (which rarely happens, given the amazing compatibility of technology in a galaxy where Voyager can barter for plug'n'play spare parts in the Delta Quadrant and everyone uses the same communication protocols, but it not unheard of).

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-26 02:07pm

OK that all makes logical sense so my last post can be pretty much discarded. My lack of science knowledge shows heh.

It’s true that they might not be able to get power readings on Imperial vessels but depending on what ships the Empire sends in to the alpha quadrant. If they only send ships of impstar size or smaller then the feds might go for it thinking their superior numbers (they wouldn’t know how many ships are on the other side) could swing it, on the other hand of they send in an executor class the feds won’t dare breath funny near the Imperials. I mean the biggest warship the feds have encountered is what a borg cube? An executor would dwarf that to say the least, and look at the trouble they had with a single borg cube…

There is a part of me that desperately wants to see a fed fleet get creamed by a clone wars era dreadnaught when the try and jump it though heh

There’s also a part of me that wants to see the reaction of the feds if the DS dropped out of hyperspace near Earth.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2002-07-26 02:20pm

Crazy_Vasey wrote:If someone like Lord Vader is in command of the fleet that makes first contact well there will be fireworks but if it's someone like Thrawn then there may be some type of peace.

I don't really share your view of Vader being a trigger happy leader who would wish to plunge Empire, no matter how powerful, into a war with an unknown alien force just like that. Empire operates with a certain objective in mind and that doesn't simply mean blasting the hell out of everyone they encounter. From Empire's point of view, a war with the Federation alone (or any other Milky Way power) would be a minor skirmish, but still it would be a waste of resources and time.

If Wong's scenario about the Empire annexing primitive worlds which are not Federation members would occur, I believe that Feds wouldn't dare to oppose it militarically -- especially not if Empire's methods were peaceful. According to themselves, Federation doesn't basically have any right to interfere others' internal matters, despite what happened in Insurrection. They would certainly be worried by what was going on in their neighbourhood and do whatever they could to achieve peaceful relations with the Empire.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-26 03:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:I had another idea; what if the Empire starts annexing primitive worlds, since those are the easiest to annex? What if they don't even do it violently, but simply show up with their advanced technology and start assimilating these worlds into the Empire through peaceful means?

Would the Federation stand by and allow this in their territory, given all of their "First Contact Protocol" and "Non-Interference" blathering? If they fight, would they be admitting that they consider these planets Federation property even though they aren't Federation citizens? If they consider it none of their business, how long would it be before the Empire has such a large presence that they can simply declare ownership of the Federation's territory through population counts and squatter's rights?

If the Empire started annexing primitive worlds the UFP would probably do nothing, if it's done peacefully. If the Empire was subjugating entire worlds the UFP would probably try opening talks with the Empire to see if it was possible that peace could be established.

Military action by the UFP would be the last resort, if that. After a couple months of observing the capabilities of the Empire the UFP just have to hope that the Empire isn't looking to gain the resources of a whole galaxy.

If it came down to it, I'm sure the UFP would resist but that doesn't make a big difference....hopefully they could gain the attention of the Rebels, if they are still around.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-26 03:22pm

That assumed that the Rebels can even get past the wormhole. With the Imps in charge of it, any unauthorized ship will be lucky to make to the wormhole intact.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-26 03:25pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:That assumed that the Rebels can even get past the wormhole. With the Imps in charge of it, any unauthorized ship will be lucky to make to the wormhole intact.

True, but that is something the Rebels were damn good at.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-26 03:31pm

Only because the emperor underestimated the Rebels, and besides, the rebels will lose a good deal of ships if they try, and I don't think they can afford that.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-26 03:36pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:Only because the emperor underestimated the Rebels, and besides, the rebels will lose a good deal of ships if they try, and I don't think they can afford that.

True, and I was thinking. Who says the Rebels would actually try and help the UFP. Sure, the Rebels are a bunch of nice people but they are probably more worried about events in their own galaxy. They will probably just sit back and hope things go well for the ST galaxy.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-07-26 05:40pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:True, and I was thinking. Who says the Rebels would actually try and help the UFP. Sure, the Rebels are a bunch of nice people but they are probably more worried about events in their own galaxy. They will probably just sit back and hope things go well for the ST galaxy.

I don't know about that. The addition of a second galaxy to the Empire would make them almost unassailable. There's a possibility of Rebel infiltrators sneaking in with technical data and giving it to a relatively large power, like the Dominion or the Borg. Either power would probably be capable of making "monkey see, monkey do" copies of Hyperdrive or TLs, though there's the question of power generation in that case.

I think that most of the Alpha and Beta quadrant nations would become client states in short order, with a creeping and insidious machination reducing them to Imperial Administrated sectors within a generation

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-26 06:21pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:True, and I was thinking. Who says the Rebels would actually try and help the UFP. Sure, the Rebels are a bunch of nice people but they are probably more worried about events in their own galaxy. They will probably just sit back and hope things go well for the ST galaxy.
I don't know about that. The addition of a second galaxy to the Empire would make them almost unassailable. There's a possibility of Rebel infiltrators sneaking in with technical data and giving it to a relatively large power, like the Dominion or the Borg. Either power would probably be capable of making "monkey see, monkey do" copies of Hyperdrive or TLs, though there's the question of power generation in that case.

I think that most of the Alpha and Beta quadrant nations would become client states in short order, with a creeping and insidious machination reducing them to Imperial Administrated sectors within a generation

I do wonder how the Empire beating on a less advanced civilization like the UFP would help the rebellions cause?

That's if news got back to the home galaxy of course.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-26 10:15pm

Like Lord Wong said, the Imps'll make BS up about what's going on in the ST galaxy and use it as an excuse to tighten it's grip.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-07-26 11:39pm

I'm sure that if the Empire just ignored the Federation and colonized planets close to Fed space the Federation would try something stupid like trying to steal a hyperdrive or Turbolaser. This would likely lead to reprisals, specifically BDZs of colonys. And from here it would escalate and the Hawks on the Fed council would demand open war even though it would be a useless gesture.

(And the Imperial commanders willl wonder why a gnat would try an pick a fight with a tiger.)

But if they don't do anything stupid like that, they might acually get along. And most likely the Feds will ask for their help against the Borg/Dominion. And when the Romulans/Klingons find this out they will think the Federation is attempting to gain power to control of the entire quadrant. And the K/R would attack and be crushed.

Either way would end in Alpha Quadrant bloodshed and Imperial Victory.

Singular Quartet · Post by **Singular Quartet** » 2002-07-26 11:43pm

Imperials will expand into ST galaxy, at the very least exploring the entire place. And crushing the borg with a spare DS or Galaxy Gun... get the locals on your side real fast...

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-07-27 05:54am

Assuming that the Federation ship doesn't emit a particle of the week that the Imperial ship sees as a threat, they'll eventually find a common frequency somewhere.

particle of the week.. he he he

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-07-27 12:13pm

I think the Empire would economically dominate the Federation like the West did the Soviet Union. The Empire's economic system would overwell the alpha quadrant and the Empire might even be able to simply "buy" the galaxy

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-07-27 12:33pm

They would certainly be able to buy the ferengi.

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-07-27 12:47pm

I wonder what the other AQ/BQ powers (Romulans, Klingons, etc) would do if the Empire turned up and the Federation started cozying up to them.

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GE - UFP: what kind of relationship should be?

GE - UFP: what kind of relationship should be?

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