BSG: "The Hand of God"

[Techno_Union]

Gah! I went out with friends last night so I recorded everything from SG1 to BSG... but gosh dangit I forgot that SG1 was 90 minutes instead of 60!!! Which means as soon as BSG kicked off their plan to attack the base, click, the tape is done.

I hope they repeat the episode soon...

[tumbletom]

Oh man, this was a freakn awesome episode...I loved the whole thing...just oh man...yeah it was cool...Lee freakn owns!!!

Ahem..anyway...
I think we can now quanify the speed of the colonial's jump drive thx to this episode. In the beginning, when the raptors were looking for the tylium, that other guy told Boomer that that asteroid was the only source of tylium in 12 lightyears or something. Also, he implied that it took many jumps to make it there (when they said something like if they had to go 15 jumps to find more tylium) But still, it seems that they had to have done it in a reasonable amount of time (a couple of hours transit at the most) because i dont think they spent more than a day getting back to the fleet..

But anyway, the i think this shows the speed of the ships (upper or lower end, not enough proof)

[StarshipTitanic]

Gah! I went out with friends last night so I recorded everything from SG1 to BSG... but gosh dangit I forgot that SG1 was 90 minutes instead of 60!!! Which means as soon as BSG kicked off their plan to attack the base, click, the tape is done.

I hope they repeat the episode soon...

BSG repeats on Monday or Tuesday at 10pm.

Also, he implied that it took many jumps to make it there (when they said something like if they had to go 15 jumps to find more tylium)

Because they were looking for it, not because they were travelling in a straight line directly to it. We already know jumps are instant, we don't know how long their range is.

[Broomstick]

One possible question with vipers - assuming that Viper Mk II do not have inertial dampeners and the Mk VII does (By the official website), could Starbuck just be assigned one of the Mk VII? I think there is one or two remaining.

I was thinking about that when I watched the show last night. The best thing I can come up with is that the Mk IIs do have inertial compensation, but that it has limits. So starbuck pulling a turn may actually be pulling 36 gs, but inertial compensation knocks out 30 of those, leaving her 6 gs of force to deal with.

Inertia isn't exactly the same thing as g-force. Inertia is a resistance in change of speed or direction. G-force is a measure of acceleration. There is a relationship there, but it's not exact. So an inertial damper might keep you from snapping your neck on a quick reverse, but it might not help you with a constant 6g acceleration along an unchanging vector.

Or maybe it would.

Because, you see, they're never explained in detail.

In any case, they apparently aren't perfect or infinitely powerful. So a military force would design ships/vehicles that work up to the limits of inertial dampers + human tolerance. Given that the average, unacclimated human being will tend to pass out at 4 or 5 g's, insisting on the Viper pilots being able to handle 6 (problably through a combination of training/acclimitazation and g-suits) is probably a good idea. In actual combat you fly to the limit because that's how you survive.

[Broomstick]

Oh I agree, I just don't understand why people think she's never going to get back in a cockpit again.

I dunno. I thought it was pretty obvious that both Tigh and the Doc expect her to recover enough to fly again.

Knee injuries are problematic. NOW they know she's recovering, but when she was first rescued the damage was significant.

In any case, she's still looking at rehab time.

When the supply of people was effectively infinite they could afford to have Starbuck the flying specialist. Hell, they could afford to throw her in the brig. Now, however, the supply of people is very limited. They need to cross train everyone. Also, as a senior pilot Starbuck needs to become a better commander.

Anyhow - when you need ideas it would be foolish to discount someone else's opinion just because they don't have some sort of fancy certificate at hand. As resident Viper expert and the instructor of the new recruits she deserved a place at the planning table. She has demonstrated "out of the box" thinking, why shouldn't they pump her brains for ideas just like everyone else?

And hey, that stunt with Apollo down the shaft was quite super-heroic... and even less plausible than Adama asking Starbuck for fresh ideas on defeating a superior force.

[Jason von Evil]

How much weight was Adama putting on that machine?

I agree with Kendall. Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh are in their old age. They realize it and want to be prepared. Training Lee and Kara to one day take command is that preparedness.

[Aaron]

Oh man, this was a freakn awesome episode...I loved the whole thing...just oh man...yeah it was cool...Lee freakn owns!!!

Ahem..anyway...
I think we can now quanify the speed of the colonial's jump drive thx to this episode. In the beginning, when the raptors were looking for the tylium, that other guy told Boomer that that asteroid was the only source of tylium in 12 lightyears or something. Also, he implied that it took many jumps to make it there (when they said something like if they had to go 15 jumps to find more tylium) But still, it seems that they had to have done it in a reasonable amount of time (a couple of hours transit at the most) because i dont think they spent more than a day getting back to the fleet..

Raptors are limited to short-range jumps only. So it takes them more jumps to make it to a destination than the Galactica, which has long range capability and seemingly made the jump in one hop. Everything I've seen on the show indicates that jumps are instantanious. Although it might take a couple hours for the Raptors to survey the asteroid fields.

But anyway, the i think this shows the speed of the ships (upper or lower end, not enough proof)

The drives work by creating an artifical wormhole, so the transit time is either instantanous or so close to it that may only take seconds.

[Aaron]

How much weight was Adama putting on that machine?

I agree with Kendall. Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh are in their old age. They realize it and want to be prepared. Training Lee and Kara to one day take command is that preparedness.

Even if they wern't in this situation, it's common for military members to train to move up to the next level. Starbuck wouldn't always function as a pilot, usually there are "shore" postings that they fill every few years. Various things like attend a command college, or fill a position as an ops officer on an Admirals staff.

But like we said, Adama and Tigh are going to die off eventually and Lee and Kara are the next senior officers in the chain of command. It's actually pretty important to bring them up to speed.

[SirNitram]

In any case, they apparently aren't perfect or infinitely powerful. So a military force would design ships/vehicles that work up to the limits of inertial dampers + human tolerance.

Groundling with a question time. Is the physical 'feedback' of G-forces ever useful in flying, as a means of knowing how you're doing or what the situation is? Would it therefore be good for a combat pilot to still experience some.. And thus, as it gets up there, start to get nasty?

[Knife]

Twas a good episode. I like that they 'went outside' for once. They've had quite a few episodes just in the Galactica so it was nice to see some action. Not that the character drama has been bad.

I'm with Striav, I'm getting a little worried about the Starbuck wank, but if the strength of the episodes are going to stay like this, then it's something I can overlook.

I don't mind the 'flea flicker' tactic but I though the 'hide the Vipers under the cargo box' was a bit cliche-ish. I would have liked to see the Galactica move in for support, though.

My pet theory at this point, is that even durring the Cylon/Colonial war 50 years ago, that the Cylon's discovered Kobol itself and decided to colonize it and make it their home world. Perhaps they dug up some interesting facts/theories about early colonial times and have decided to re-enact history.

One of the other fears I have about the show is it seems more and more like the Galactica and the 'fleet' were 'choosen' by the Cylon's which would make the odds of such things happening as very slim.

[Junghalli]

When I see nuclear fireballs clearly visible from space erupting along multiple points on the planet's surface and we know that Caprica city was hit by a 40 megaton device then I can quite reasonably assume that many cities have been reduced to smoldering heaps. The city they've been wandering through (aside from looking distinctly Canadian) was pretty sizeable. Why was it NOT hit during that nuclear blitzkrieg? No signs of nuclear winter like effects, its like everyone simply dropped dead and vanished with no ill effects on the city.

Maybe they used a neutron bomb or biological weapon?
And something to remember: explosions shown from space are almost always hideously wanked, because a reasonably sized nuclear detonation simply doesn't look very impressive against the backdrop of a whole planet. According to SDN's nuclear effects calculator that 40 megaton nuke would have a fireball 1.9 km across. Seen from orbit that's a pinprick.

[Aaron]

Maybe they used a neutron bomb or biological weapon?
And something to remember: explosions shown from space are almost always hideously wanked, because a reasonably sized nuclear detonation simply doesn't look very impressive against the backdrop of a whole planet. According to SDN's nuclear effects calculator that 40 megaton nuke would have a fireball 1.9 km across. Seen from orbit that's a pinprick.

Neutron bombs produce very little in the way of blast effects. Their primary purpose is to produce massive amounts of gamma radiation. There's no way that the nukes we saw going off on Caprica were neutron bombs.

[StarshipTitanic]

Detonation screen captures:

http://img158.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img158& ... 0016yp.jpg

http://img203.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img203& ... 0022kw.jpg

[Typhonis 1]

http://img203.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img203& ... 0022kw.jpg

Man that second screencap shows at least 6 basestars in it....is that Caprica or Pacifica?

[StarshipTitanic]

It's Caprica because that's the planet Boomer and Helo were heading for. There is no Pacifica.

[Aaron]

It's Caprica because that's the planet Boomer and Helo were heading for. There is no Pacifica.

I think Pacifica is a Battlestar.

[Aaron]

Yup, Pacifica is one of the 12 original Battlestars.

Damn the lack of edit.

[StarshipTitanic]

I think Pacifica is a Battlestar.

I'm certain he was referring to the planet in the picture, not the derelict.

A pity that the writers resurrected that moronic 12 battlestar myth.

[Aaron]

I'm certain he was referring to the planet in the picture, not the derelict.

A pity that the writers resurrected that moronic 12 battlestar myth.

I think it's only that there were 12 built during the original Cylon War. There's dialogue to indicate that there are over 120 Battlestars in the modern Colonial navy.

Was there a planet called Pacifica in TOS BSG?

[StarshipTitanic]

I'm certain he was referring to the planet in the picture, not the derelict.

A pity that the writers resurrected that moronic 12 battlestar myth.

I think it's only that there were 12 built during the original Cylon War. There's dialogue to indicate that there are over 120 Battlestars in the modern Colonial navy.

Yes, I know this. It doesn't make it any less moronic.

Was there a planet called Pacifica in TOS BSG?

No, just a battlestar from faint background dialogue in the pilot.

[Aaron]

Yes, I know this. It doesn't make it any less moronic.

True, thats no were near enough to secure all the Colonies.

[Galvatron]

Maybe the original twelve Battlestars represented a small, peacetime fleet when the Cylons were still docile slaves. That all changed, no doubt, when the Cylons rebelled and the colonies needed more ships to combat them.

Besides, in the new BSG, wouldn't the old Cylon Basestars have originally been part of the Colonial fleet?

[Broomstick]

In any case, they apparently aren't perfect or infinitely powerful. So a military force would design ships/vehicles that work up to the limits of inertial dampers + human tolerance.

Groundling with a question time. Is the physical 'feedback' of G-forces ever useful in flying, as a means of knowing how you're doing or what the situation is? Would it therefore be good for a combat pilot to still experience some.. And thus, as it gets up there, start to get nasty?

Yeah, it can be.

Keeping in mind I'm strictly a civilian pilot I can only tell you how I use g-force feedback in my own flying. The military perspective will no doubt have some overlap but may differ in some aspects that I'm simply not aware of.

The first use is in turning. The steeper the bank, the greater the g-force, which rises exponetially. In a 10 or 15 degree bank this is so slight as to be unnoticable to most human bodies. However, as the bank increases while level flight is maintained, which also requires more effort to keep coordinated and under precise control, the g-force increases. In a 30 degree bank in level flight, for example, you're under about 1.15 g's, which you'll notice. It's not at all bad or unpleasent at that point, but you'll notice. Now, as I circle over a hypothetical water tower, trying to make out who loves whom in the spray-painted graffiti, one of the ways I maintain that precise turn is through paying attention to the g-force. If it increases, then either I've started climbing or I've increased the bank. If it dimishes, I've either started descending or decreased the bank. This comes in handy when I need my eyes outside of the cockpit rather than looking at the instruments.

At 60 degrees of bank the occupants of the airplane are under 2 g's. Same thing applies - increase or decrease in g-force under those circumstances means you're getting sloppy and need to make adjustments. 2g's is tolerable, but it's starting to get uncomfortable for any length of time. When you reach for something you tend to undershoot because your arm weighs twice as much and it's hard to judge the exact effort you need to get the job done. Swing your neck around too fast you might pull a muscle. Do a whole lot of this when you're not used to it and the next day you might have a low-level body ache from slightly sore muscles all over. Granted, there are roller coasters that subject riders to 3 or 4 g's, but the duration of that is measured in seconds - I've spent 10 or 20 minutes at a time practicing steep turns and subjecting myself to these forces. It's a different effect.

(Just for the record, I find things start getting painful around 2.5-3 g's for me. The only time I inflicted that on myself it was to avoid a collision with another airplane - it was a damn near thing. When I looked down I could read the instruments in the other guy's cockpit, we were that close. Yeah, I was scared spitless and shaking. If something like that doesn't scare you, you're fucked up)

Mind you, the body adapts - aerobatic and combat pilots routinely work under much greater g-forces but they work up to that level gradually. And if they take time off they have to re-acclimatize. Even folks like me, if we wind up doing a lot of this sort of stuff, adjust. A couple weeks of this sort of thing and when you reach for something in the cockpit while pulling 2 g's you'll start hitting the mark instead of fumbling as the part of your brain that coordinates your movements recomputes things.

G-forces can also give you information about climbs, descents, and other things. A sudden decrease in g-force, so you're experiencing less than 1 g, or even going into negative g's (meaning you feel pulled to the roof of the cockpit instead of the floor) can provide valuable information as well. When you tell the airplane to do something the result should be smooth and consistent - if it's not, then you need to find out why.

G-force information can kill you, too - because an increase in g-force can be either acceleration or climb, if you aren't clear on which is happening the consequences can be dire. Navy carrier pilots launching on dark nights (that is - cloudless) and therefore with little or no other feedback have occssionally been known to fly their birds into the ocean - they misinterpreted the acceleration and climb components, and corrected the wrong way. These are the best flyers, and if it can nail them it can, potentially, nail anyone.

G-forces can also provide information in some unusual situations, specifically the spin vs. steep spiral distinction. I discussed spins in a prior BSG thread, and won't go into so much detail here, but suffice it to say that a steep spiral can, in it's latter stages, closely resemble a spin from both inside and outside the cockpit. However, it's not the same thing and the proper recovery from one can be fatal in the other. So knowing the difference is important. In a spin you're... well, spinning, like a centrifuge. Which means the further you get from the axis of spin the greater the g-force, and vice versa. When I was involved in spin training this meant my right elbow (very near the center of gravity and axis of spin) was almost in free-fall and my left elbow was under several g's. This registers as a very strong pull to one side. In a steep spiral (so I'm told - I actually haven't been in one of this sort yet) the g-force is constant because you're not spinning, although you are in a very tight turn. So the g-force will be equal on both sides of your body and any pull you feel will be down relative to you, not to one side. It's a pretty fine distinction, fine enough that people won't always pick up on it in time, but if you do perceive the difference that could be extremely important information.

However, there is one other point about g-forces that is very useful and vital information in many situations. Aircraft can only withstand so many g's. A combat or acrobatic craft is built to withstand significantly more than what are called utility or normal aircraft. These specs are given in the pilot's handbook, and in some cases on a little plaque inside the cockpit. So, if I read that my aircraft is only certified for 2 g's and I know what 2 g's feels like then I know that when the g's start mounting I better do something because I don't want to break my airplane. And if an aerobatic craft is only rated for 6 g's you probably don't want to exceed that, even if you are wearing a parachute or have an ejection system - again, knowing what 6 g's feels like could be extremely valuable information (such airplanes are usually equipped with g-meters, to give more precise feedback about exact forces, but those that fly 'em listen to their own bodies as well because sometimes instruments fail)

And that might well be a reason to not completely insulate a viper pilot from g forces. These ships have enough power to rip themselves apart if mishandled. When fleeing or attacking, pilots will need to push the vipers to the limit - but no farther. Increasing g-forces as they approach that limit would provide an impossible to ignore signal that they are reaching the limits of what the craft can endure. After all, nothing is gained by accidently wrecking the viper, right?

[Knife]

Maybe the original twelve Battlestars represented a small, peacetime fleet when the Cylons were still docile slaves. That all changed, no doubt, when the Cylons rebelled and the colonies needed more ships to combat them.

Besides, in the new BSG, wouldn't the old Cylon Basestars have originally been part of the Colonial fleet?

That would seem reasonable. The Cylon fleet created to defend the Colonies with a small Colonial command and control fleet.

As I said in my 'pet theory', I think the Cylon's probably 'branched out' some durring the war 50 years ago. They probably knew they were going to rebel long before they did and set up an infrastructure first and I do think they found Kobol early in the game and have found interesting shit.

[tumbletom]

Oh man, this was a freakn awesome episode...I loved the whole thing...just oh man...yeah it was cool...Lee freakn owns!!!

Ahem..anyway...
I think we can now quanify the speed of the colonial's jump drive thx to this episode. In the beginning, when the raptors were looking for the tylium, that other guy told Boomer that that asteroid was the only source of tylium in 12 lightyears or something. Also, he implied that it took many jumps to make it there (when they said something like if they had to go 15 jumps to find more tylium) But still, it seems that they had to have done it in a reasonable amount of time (a couple of hours transit at the most) because i dont think they spent more than a day getting back to the fleet..

Raptors are limited to short-range jumps only. So it takes them more jumps to make it to a destination than the Galactica, which has long range capability and seemingly made the jump in one hop. Everything I've seen on the show indicates that jumps are instantanious. Although it might take a couple hours for the Raptors to survey the asteroid fields.

But anyway, the i think this shows the speed of the ships (upper or lower end, not enough proof)

The drives work by creating an artifical wormhole, so the transit time is either instantanous or so close to it that may only take seconds.

Your right, I should have said range, not speed...