Doom Star vs. Death Star

[seanrobertson]

Perhaps, but is a planet cracking shot neccessary to take down the Death Star? We know the DS2 can make superlaser shots in tactical combat. Can the DS1? I'm actually assuming it can.

Yes on the former count, depending on what you mean by "planet-cracking." Like Mike said, the DS1 was 6 planetary diameters from an Alderaan hit with a 1E38J+ blast.

That's about 3E22 megatons. With a profile of ~1E10 m^2 (lower-limit based on the overly conservative WEG size), the Death Star would've absorbed no less than 5E15 MT at 70,000 km.

That'd very much "crack" a planet. It wouldn't send a terrestrial body's mass hurtling outward beyond escape velocity, but then, this Doom Star doesn't do that, so it's not a concern, is it? Like Adam said:

2.) Stellar Converters do not scatter a planet's mass at escape velocity (minimum) - they crack a planet and create asteroid fields through some funky weapons effect (If you scatter a planet's mass DS-style, the debris is moving fast enough that gravity cannot hold it together. Therefore it will not sit in place forming an asteroid field.)

Do you disagree with his assessment? I don't know much about a Doom Star but I know to take Adam's analysis _very_ seriously.

[Darth Wong]

Phase cloak ships exists on a seperate plane of existence.

Wrong. They cannot move through other ships. Try playing the game sometime.

They can't see each other, but they might very well bump into each other.

Wrong.

Without knowing more about the exact technobabble behind phasing technology, your hypothesis about gravity affecting phase cloaked ships is utter bullshit.

Wrong.

More dense material affecting phased ships indeed!

Play the game sometime.

Hmmm... that's an interesting thought anyway. Can phased ships pass through black holes? Any such instance in sci-fi?

Play the game sometime.

Besides, it's the fault of the progammers that they couldn't get space sharing in.

We're talking about a universe which "exists" solely as a game. Don't waste my time with useless bullshit evasions. Oh, and by the way, why don't you try setting off a pulsar near a cloaked ship?

Well, some people say otherwise.

Wow, what a stunning argument.

The question becomes, just how much of a comparison can we make? The weapon damage yields in MoO2 are not logical when you compare the damage ratios of fusion/fission missiles compared to anti-matter ones. This suggests that some weird alternative math model might be in use, rather than an arithmatic relationship. And yes, this part is indeed bullshit and utter crap.

Then why did you post it?

This part is debatable. Like I've said, the damage yields of the MoO weapons just doesn't fit. Like, antimatter missiles with the same amount of 'explosive' material are only what? Twice as powerful in damage terms than a ordinary nuke? Compare the yields of 1 kg of hydrogen fusion and 1 kg of matter/antimatter.

Since MOO2 does not quantify the amount of reactant, this is a pure bullshit argument.

[Coalition]

This part is debatable. Like I've said, the damage yields of the MoO weapons just doesn't fit. Like, antimatter missiles with the same amount of 'explosive' material are only what? Twice as powerful in damage terms than a ordinary nuke? Compare the yields of 1 kg of hydrogen fusion and 1 kg of matter/antimatter.

Would storing hydrogen for a fusion explosion be easier than storing antimatter for the M/AM bomb?

The hydrogen (in whatever isotope selected) could be stored as a frozen liquid, with a way to inject it properly.

The antimatter though, needs heavy safeguards to avoid blowing up the mounting ship (or material to quick-create it as the bomb is launched).

That would explain why the antimatter bomb is only double damage than fusion.

[Murazor]

And I find your argument to be bullshit. The Death Star was ready to fire again at Yavin, on the same day as it destroyed Alderaan. Moreover, it takes WEEKS for a Doomstar to charge up a strategic stellar converter shot, since you can only do it once in a game turn, and a game turn is at least a tenth of a year (I believe original MOO game turns were a whole year, but someone mentioned earlier that a MOO2 game turn is 0.1 years).

And maybe it would be able to destroy the phase cloaked Doom Star.

Maybe? MOO2 phase cloaks do not allow a ship to pass through another ship; it is obvious that they still have a presence in spacetime, and that it can be both detected and fired upon with sufficient technology. Moreover, after ten combat turns a phase cloak wears off and becomes an ordinary, partial cloak.

However, how are gunners going to target it if the ships in Master of Orion start combat cloaked and with shields up?

See above.

And thanks to the subspace teleporter it can just jump around the Death Star laughing at the one shot weapon of doom.

You're a fucking moron. What about the hundreds of thousands of turbolaser cannons, each of which would be powerful enough to wipe out a planetary colony with a single blast?

Thank you for supporting my point with calling names... Thank you very much. May we discuss this with you starting the "rabid Warsie" mode?
First of all, the DS1 had been sitting at the Alderaan meteorite field until the Millenium Falcon arrived. How long this was we can't now, but probably it took some time. Later, it took at the very least the time Han, Luke and Leia needed to "escape" (about an hour in film time, probably more in reality). It took some time for them to fly to Yavin. And later, the Death Star needed to circunnavigate the gas giant in order to get in shoting position fighting its way through the rebel fighters. All that needed some time again... So the Superlaser may very much have a long reload time for use in estrategical mode.
Secondly, an turn of the game is a "month" out of ten that make a galactic year. Have you played the game? And I have used it up to three times in a turn last night only for being sure that you were mistaken (you owe me a Huge Gaia, a Medium Toxic and a Medium Terran).
In third place, imperial sensors aren't what you make them appear for. The millenium falcom (too small to house a cloaking device if we must believe imperial officers) hide behind the bridge of a Imperial Star Destroyer unnoticed. Another good example is when some cloaked asteroid caused mayhem around Coruscant thanks to Thrawn. And phase cloak seems to be at the very, very least much better than the Chimera cloak as it doesn't blind the people inside it and completely prevents enemy ships (of a kind designed to fight them and so with a knowledge of its technical characteristics) from targeting the ship. It will wear off... But with a time dilation device, the Death Star will have suffered very devastating blows before being able to answer them. For the turbolasers, which is the range of those things? The superlaser fired quite well from about six planetary diameters of an standard habitable planet, but we have never seen any turbolaser attack from such a distance (now is when you need to use some dark example from the EU)
The subspace teleporter that has an efective range of several thousands kilometers means that the Doom Star can dodge the superlaser and appear behind the Death Star and continue hammering it beyond the range of turbolasers while the DS turns slooowly to face its enemy with the superlaser (certainly the only weapon with a slight possibility of making a one kill shot onboard the station).

[NecronLord]

Thank you for supporting my point with calling names... Thank you very much. May we discuss this with you starting the "rabid Warsie" mode?

This is Stardestroyer.net. Flaming and ridicule are part of the SD.Net experience, as the tagline says, "Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people" while you may not be stupid per se, the accepted response on SD.net is to quit bitching and do it back. You will not gain a moral high ground by complaining about it, (Bitch ).

[D.Turtle]

For the turbolasers, which is the range of those things?

There is an EU example of a ship shooting from outside a solar system at a ship in orbit of one of the planets in the solar system (Coruscant).

Dont have the books, dont have the quotes, but others should be able to provide those.

[The_Nice_Guy]

There is an EU example of a ship shooting from outside a solar system at a ship in orbit of one of the planets in the solar system (Coruscant).

A target might dodge out of the way, if there was enough distance, wouldn't it? Both the Doom Star and the Death Star, if engaging at far enough distances, where their weapons were all limited by the sped of light, would be able to see and dodge incoming attacks.

The Doom Star gets a slight edge in any such contest due to its cloak, its TWF, and the sub space teleporter. There is no question in my mind that the Doom Star can land the first shot, but whether that first shot is enough to take down the Death Star is the key point.

Thinking back on a numbers issue, if we suppose that Alderaan had a working planetary shield around it when the superlaser hit, and assuming that the planetary shield is proportionately stronger than ordinary ship shielding(it's bigger after all), what is the adjusted power of the superlaser? It's energy to blow up planet+energy to shatter shield.

Without any real idea of how much energy shields can soak up, it's easy to posit any high figure that can only increase the energy yields of Star Wars weapons.

[Darth Wong]

Thank you for supporting my point with calling names... Thank you very much. May we discuss this with you starting the "rabid Warsie" mode?

Drop the "style over substance" fallacies, asshole.

First of all, the DS1 had been sitting at the Alderaan meteorite field until the Millenium Falcon arrived. How long this was we can't now, but probably it took some time.

Wrong. There is a continuous scene between Obi-Wan detecting the destruction of Alderaan via the Force and their arrival at Alderaan, and it's only a few minutes.

Later, it took at the very least the time Han, Luke and Leia needed to "escape" (about an hour in film time, probably more in reality). It took some time for them to fly to Yavin.

Considering they nabbed Leia before her execution which was ordered "immediately" and were on the run from that point on, it seems rather unlikely that they wasted a lot of time lounging around.

And later, the Death Star needed to circunnavigate the gas giant in order to get in shoting position fighting its way through the rebel fighters. All that needed some time again...

Yeah, about half an hour.

So the Superlaser may very much have a long reload time for use in estrategical mode.

Compared to a few weeks? You're on drugs.

Secondly, an turn of the game is a "month" out of ten that make a galactic year. Have you played the game? And I have used it up to three times in a turn last night only for being sure that you were mistaken (you owe me a Huge Gaia, a Medium Toxic and a Medium Terran).

You blew up three planets with a single stellar converter on a single ship in one game turn?

In third place, imperial sensors aren't what you make them appear for. The millenium falcom (too small to house a cloaking device if we must believe imperial officers) hide behind the bridge of a Imperial Star Destroyer unnoticed.

Yet another moronic statement. This is like saying that a modern aircraft carrier's radar is no good because it doesn't pick up some guy walking around on the flight deck. It wasn't designed to do that; it's not an indication of weakness, dumb-ass.

Another good example is when some cloaked asteroid caused mayhem around Coruscant thanks to Thrawn. And phase cloak seems to be at the very, very least much better than the Chimera cloak as it doesn't blind the people inside it and completely prevents enemy ships (of a kind designed to fight them and so with a knowledge of its technical characteristics) from targeting the ship.

Which is precisely why it cannot move the ship into a different plane of reality, hence the laws of thermodynamics dictate that there must be trackable emissions. Yet again, you proudly demonstrate your stupidity.

It will wear off... But with a time dilation device, the Death Star will have suffered very devastating blows before being able to answer them.

More bullshit. A single plasma cannon won't blow away a planetary colony, but a single blast from a HTL will. Ergo, even a fully loaded Doomstar with plasma cannons is a pipsqueak compared to Death Star tactical firepower, never mind its main gun.

For the turbolasers, which is the range of those things? The superlaser fired quite well from about six planetary diameters of an standard habitable planet, but we have never seen any turbolaser attack from such a distance (now is when you need to use some dark example from the EU)

Do you have a problem with such examples? There are lots of them. Not to mention the planetary ion cannon at Hoth which had no problem hitting the small frontal profile of an ISD in orbit.

The subspace teleporter that has an efective range of several thousands kilometers means that the Doom Star can dodge the superlaser and appear behind the Death Star and continue hammering it beyond the range of turbolasers while the DS turns slooowly to face its enemy with the superlaser (certainly the only weapon with a slight possibility of making a one kill shot onboard the station).

Yet again, you demonstrate your idiocy. What part of "hundreds of thousands of turbolasers" are you too fucking stupid to understand?

[The_Nice_Guy]

Which is precisely why it cannot move the ship into a different plane of reality, hence the laws of thermodynamics dictate that there must be trackable emissions. Yet again, you proudly demonstrate your stupidity.

Oh wait, aren't the laws of physics being broken routinely in sci-fi?

Please, if somebody wants it a certain way, they can very well have it that way, and to hell with the laws of physics. In the game itself, phased cloak ships can observe the enemy while not being observed themselves. Who gives a flip about thermodynamics?

Phased cloak simply means that the ship can become intangible and invisible while being able to observe things around it at the same time. Never mind about the background technobabble about it. They can do it, and that's that! It's like asking you how FTL is achieved in Star Wars. When you come right down to it, it's all bullshit, asshole.

The Wobbly Guy

[HRogge]

Phased cloak simply means that the ship can become intangible and invisible while being able to observe things around it at the same time. Never mind about the background technobabble about it. They can do it, and that's that! It's like asking you how FTL is achieved in Star Wars. When you come right down to it, it's all bullshit, asshole.

If you can see the outside, there is a way how energy from the outside interacts with the inside of your ship. Most energy might pass through the ship, but a small fraction get's to the sensors of your ship. Now imagine how HUGE this fraction becomes when your ship is "hit" by a DS full powered shot.

[Darth Wong]

Which is precisely why it cannot move the ship into a different plane of reality, hence the laws of thermodynamics dictate that there must be trackable emissions. Yet again, you proudly demonstrate your stupidity.

Oh wait, aren't the laws of physics being broken routinely in sci-fi?

New phenomena are observed which, if they were observed in real life, would require new theories. If we saw that in real-life, we would not suddenly discard thermodynamics, idiot.

Please, if somebody wants it a certain way, they can very well have it that way, and to hell with the laws of physics.

Classic mentality of scientifically ignorant fools everywhere.

In the game itself, phased cloak ships can observe the enemy while not being observed themselves. Who gives a flip about thermodynamics?

People who are intelligent enough to understand it, unlike you.

BTW, you could replace "thermodynamics" with "logic" in that last sentence and your argument would be essentially unchanged.

Phased cloak simply means that the ship can become intangible and invisible while being able to observe things around it at the same time.

The ship is not totally intangible or invisible, dumb-fuck. Pulsars still affect it, you can still barely see it, it can still see you, and it can't move through other objects. How many times do I have to repeat myself, moron?

Never mind about the background technobabble about it. They can do it, and that's that!

Proof through vehement assertion. Lovely logic.

It's like asking you how FTL is achieved in Star Wars.

It is achieved in such a manner that the laws of thermodynamics are not necessarily broken; read the ICS.

When you come right down to it, it's all bullshit, asshole.

No, you're all bullshit, asshole.

[The_Nice_Guy]

Phased cloak simply means that the ship can become intangible and invisible while being able to observe things around it at the same time. Never mind about the background technobabble about it. They can do it, and that's that! It's like asking you how FTL is achieved in Star Wars. When you come right down to it, it's all bullshit, asshole.

If you can see the outside, there is a way how energy from the outside interacts with the inside of your ship. Most energy might pass through the ship, but a small fraction get's to the sensors of your ship. Now imagine how HUGE this fraction becomes when your ship is "hit" by a DS full powered shot.

Hold on, that's if they know where the target is. If we're talking about a mexican style standoff where both ships are stationary, sure, the Death Star can get off a shot in the right direction, and have it HIT the target.

But in a mobile battle, it's more difficult. The point is that trying to detect the Doom Star is a futile task.

But pouring out TBL fire in every other direction... Hmm...

New phenomena are observed which, if they were observed in real life, would require new theories. If we saw that in real-life, we would not suddenly discard thermodynamics, idiot.

Strawman. Did we see anything in real life pertaining to this theoretical discussion of fictitious ships?

Classic mentality of scientifically ignorant fools everywhere.

More ad hominem? Nice comeback.

People who are intelligent enough to understand it, unlike you.

BTW, you could replace "thermodynamics" with "logic" in that last sentence and your argument would be essentially unchanged.

Strawman. Sci-fi requires a certain abandonment of logic. By logic, Death Stars do not exist. FTL travel is unproven.

The ship is not totally intangible or invisible, dumb-fuck.

According to who? You, oh great master of ignoring the obvious fluff text of the technology? It states very clearly, "Ship cannot be detected".

Pulsars still affect it, you can still barely see it, it can still see you, and it can't move through other objects. How many times do I have to repeat myself, moron?

Conceded, due to Hrogge's explanation. The crew of the Doom Star will get a very nasty shock if the superlaser hits...

Proof through vehement assertion. Lovely logic.

I can say the same for you. Scif-fi is all about twisting and ignoring the laws of science to get a certain desired result. FTL drives, anybody? Or am I going to beat you over the head by pointing out that science as we know it right now doesn't posit the existence of FTL travel, hereby rendering all arguments moot? Or how is it possible for a Death Star to be able to generate so much power to fire the superlaser? In the end, we all have to accept that things are the way they are, simply by some fiat or ignorance of basic science.

It's ALL proof through vehement assertion? Pot, kettle, black.

It is achieved in such a manner that the laws of thermodynamics are not necessarily broken; read the ICS.

Did I mention thermodynamics prior to your quote? No, I didn't. It might not ignore the laws of thermodynamics, but it sure ignores other current theories of physics. It's all about the suspension of belief.

If we can accept that FTL travel is possible, there's a lot of other stuff we can accept in these fictitious settings. Like the Force, lightsabers, and not incidentally, phasing cloaks.

No, you're all bullshit, asshole.

Pot, kettle, black. We're all assholes.

The Wobbly Guy

[Darth Wong]

Hold on, that's if they know where the target is. If we're talking about a mexican style standoff where both ships are stationary, sure, the Death Star can get off a shot in the right direction, and have it HIT the target.

But in a mobile battle, it's more difficult. The point is that trying to detect the Doom Star is a futile task.

But pouring out TBL fire in every other direction... Hmm...

Why is it a futile task to detect the Doom Star? The fact that it is not detectable by MOO2 sensors means it must be invisible to all types of sensors in all sci-fi universes now?

New phenomena are observed which, if they were observed in real life, would require new theories. If we saw that in real-life, we would not suddenly discard thermodynamics, idiot.

Strawman. Did we see anything in real life pertaining to this theoretical discussion of fictitious ships?

Please look up the definition of "strawman", idiot. I am pointing out that your moronic "logic" (that anything we see which violates existing scientific theory means that ALL science is promptly discarded) does not follow.

Classic mentality of scientifically ignorant fools everywhere.

More ad hominem? Nice comeback.

Yet another pathetic attempt to assign a fallacy name which you obviously do not understand. I pointed out WHY your argument is false, rather than using the insult as an argument in and of itself.

People who are intelligent enough to understand it, unlike you.

BTW, you could replace "thermodynamics" with "logic" in that last sentence and your argument would be essentially unchanged.

Strawman.

Here's a hint, moron: you can't just randomly throw out the names of fallacies and hope they apply. How is it a "strawman" to point out that your "relativity does not explain this, therefore all science and logic go out the window" logic is bullshit? By your moronic "reasoning", every time throughout history that any scientific observation has disproven existing theory would have been a good time to discard all of science and logic.

Sci-fi requires a certain abandonment of logic. By logic, Death Stars do not exist. FTL travel is unproven.

Wrong. "Logic" does not say anything about FTL travel whatsoever; it is merely a method of examining the ramifications of a premise, you idiot. It is certain observations and theoretical explanations for those observations which indicate that FTL travel is impossible.

The ship is not totally intangible or invisible, dumb-fuck.

According to who? You, oh great master of ignoring the obvious fluff text of the technology? It states very clearly, "Ship cannot be detected".

And yet it can, since your planets can detect a lone phase-cloaked ship approaching in time to go to tactical mode before they reach bombardment range, dumb-ass.

Pulsars still affect it, you can still barely see it, it can still see you, and it can't move through other objects. How many times do I have to repeat myself, moron?

Conceded, due to Hrogge's explanation. The crew of the Doom Star will get a very nasty shock if the superlaser hits...

Obviously.

Proof through vehement assertion. Lovely logic.

I can say the same for you.

Oh really? How, since (unlike you) I have actually provided justifications for my points rather than simply mindlessly restating them whenever challenged?

Scif-fi is all about twisting and ignoring the laws of science to get a certain desired result. FTL drives, anybody? Or am I going to beat you over the head by pointing out that science as we know it right now doesn't posit the existence of FTL travel, hereby rendering all arguments moot?

You're a moron; science is a descriptive model for the physical universe. Given a slightly different physical universe where the rules are a bit different, the scientific method would still apply, and many of the laws of science would still apply (most of them in fact, given a universe where humans exist and mundane actions such as throwing a ball or spitting on the ground still have predictable consequences).

Or how is it possible for a Death Star to be able to generate so much power to fire the superlaser? In the end, we all have to accept that things are the way they are, simply by some fiat or ignorance of basic science.

It's ALL proof through vehement assertion? Pot, kettle, black.

Tu Quoque fallacy, not to mention pure bullshit. You are merely appealing to the unexplained as an excuse to dismiss everything we do know. This is the epitome of the non-rational mind.

It is achieved in such a manner that the laws of thermodynamics are not necessarily broken; read the ICS.

Did I mention thermodynamics prior to your quote? No, I didn't. It might not ignore the laws of thermodynamics, but it sure ignores other current theories of physics. It's all about the suspension of belief.

Yet again, you don't understand what you are talking about. In real life, there have been countless incidents in which an observation violated the then-known laws of physics. We did not say "oops, I guess we can throw science and logic out the window"; we simply revised our theories.

If we can accept that FTL travel is possible, there's a lot of other stuff we can accept in these fictitious settings. Like the Force, lightsabers, and not incidentally, phasing cloaks.

Non sequitur.

No, you're all bullshit, asshole.

Pot, kettle, black. We're all assholes.

Speak for yourself; this is like the alcoholic moron who thinks it's OK because he believes everybody else is an alcoholic too.

[Connor MacLeod]

I thought it might be interesting to checck the MOO2 manual and the description of the phasing cloak's effects (page 101):

"It [the phasing cloak] allows a ship to temporarily shift its hyperspatial harmonics - in a sense moving its atoms partially into another dimension - instead of just eliminating the evidence of its movements.)

This basically indicates what Mike initially assumed is in fact correct.

[Connor MacLeod]

Perhaps, but is a planet cracking shot neccessary to take down the Death Star? We know the DS2 can make superlaser shots in tactical combat. Can the DS1? I'm actually assuming it can.

The DS can absorb up to 3e31 joules of kinetic energy without harm (1 megaton is 4.2e15 megatons. Roughly speaking, it can handle thousands of one trillion (1e12) megaton detonations.

The fact that a Doom Star cannot initiate an extinctoin event, much less totally scatter a planet's mass, in a single shot is literally orders of magnitude below this (about a million times, at least.) Much as other people have been pointing out.

Phase cloak ships exists on a seperate plane of existence. They can't see each other, but they might very well bump into each other. Without knowing more about the exact technobabble behind phasing technology, your hypothesis about gravity affecting phase cloaked ships is utter bullshit.

More dense material affecting phased ships indeed!

Did you ever *bother* to check the MOO2 manual before you spouted this off?

Well, some people say otherwise.

Some people talk out of their asses too.

The question becomes, just how much of a comparison can we make? The weapon damage yields in MoO2 are not logical when you compare the damage ratios of fusion/fission missiles compared to anti-matter ones. This suggests that some weird alternative math model might be in use, rather than an arithmatic relationship. And yes, this part is indeed bullshit and utter crap.

This part is debatable. Like I've said, the damage yields of the MoO weapons just doesn't fit. Like, antimatter missiles with the same amount of 'explosive' material are only what? Twice as powerful in damage terms than a ordinary nuke? Compare the yields of 1 kg of hydrogen fusion and 1 kg of matter/antimatter.

The Wobbly Guy

Ever heard of "inefficiencies?" Just because Fusion puts out 6e14 joules per kg at 100% while Matter/Antimatter puts out 9e16 joules at 100% per kg at 100% does not automatically make antimatter superior. All that the comparison would indicate is that antimatter bombs are highly inefficient (which is not unreasonable either - I suggest you read Mike's Photorp page to see why.)

[Murazor]

Do you have a problem with such examples? There are lots of them. Not to mention the planetary ion cannon at Hoth which had no problem hitting the small frontal profile of an ISD in orbit.

My policy on "what is canon and what is not" is that the films, their novels, screenplays, and radio dramas are canon. Everything else is speculation.
Doesn't that sound familiar? However, the Star Destroyer at Hoth (though given the size of the planet it didn't appear to be soo far away -perhaps one or two thousands km above the planetary surface-) is a decent example of mid-range using of beam weaponry.

[Murazor]

Several things you must consider there are, young Wong. You are being every bit as fanatical with this as creationists with that theory of the "intelligent design". Don't start calling names and putting everything you don't agree with as bullshit and just give the reasons that most of the time are pretty good.

Hold on, that's if they know where the target is. If we're talking about a mexican style standoff where both ships are stationary, sure, the Death Star can get off a shot in the right direction, and have it HIT the target.

But in a mobile battle, it's more difficult. The point is that trying to detect the Doom Star is a futile task.

But pouring out TBL fire in every other direction... Hmm...

Why is it a futile task to detect the Doom Star? The fact that it is not detectable by MOO2 sensors means it must be invisible to all types of sensors in all sci-fi universes now?

That O.K corral thing is nonsense made post. When we confront different warships everything it has to offer gets into play. The Yamato had the bigger guns, but it was destroyed without damage for the United States.

[Murazor]

Drop the "style over substance" fallacies, asshole.

Continue, please. I've always liked the sound of the rain.

First of all, the DS1 had been sitting at the Alderaan meteorite field until the Millenium Falcon arrived. How long this was we can't now, but probably it took some time.

Wrong. There is a continuous scene between Obi-Wan detecting the destruction of Alderaan via the Force and their arrival at Alderaan, and it's only a few minutes.

In fact, things didn't happen that way. We know that the Force has a very significative penalty in hyperspatial distances (New Jedi Order) and that may mean that Obi Wan was only able to detect the traces of the destruction when they get close enough. In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

Later, it took at the very least the time Han, Luke and Leia needed to "escape" (about an hour in film time, probably more in reality). It took some time for them to fly to Yavin.

Considering they nabbed Leia before her execution which was ordered "immediately" and were on the run from that point on, it seems rather unlikely that they wasted a lot of time lounging around.

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

And later, the Death Star needed to circunnavigate the gas giant in order to get in shoting position fighting its way through the rebel fighters. All that needed some time again...

Yeah, about half an hour.

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

So the Superlaser may very much have a long reload time for use in estrategical mode.

Compared to a few weeks? You're on drugs.

See above. And please, don't think that everybody around here is like you.

Secondly, an turn of the game is a "month" out of ten that make a galactic year. Have you played the game? And I have used it up to three times in a turn last night only for being sure that you were mistaken (you owe me a Huge Gaia, a Medium Toxic and a Medium Terran).

You blew up three planets with a single stellar converter on a single ship in one game turn?

No... because the game doesn't allow such a thing. But I understood that you were saying that every empire does only have one planet killing stellar converter that they hide somewhere, never using it in battles.

In third place, imperial sensors aren't what you make them appear for. The millenium falcom (too small to house a cloaking device if we must believe imperial officers) hide behind the bridge of a Imperial Star Destroyer unnoticed.

Yet another moronic statement. This is like saying that a modern aircraft carrier's radar is no good because it doesn't pick up some guy walking around on the flight deck. It wasn't designed to do that; it's not an indication of weakness, dumb-ass.

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

Another good example is when some cloaked asteroid caused mayhem around Coruscant thanks to Thrawn. And phase cloak seems to be at the very, very least much better than the Chimera cloak as it doesn't blind the people inside it and completely prevents enemy ships (of a kind designed to fight them and so with a knowledge of its technical characteristics) from targeting the ship.

Which is precisely why it cannot move the ship into a different plane of reality, hence the laws of thermodynamics dictate that there must be trackable emissions. Yet again, you proudly demonstrate your stupidity.

Hmmm... This is a good answer. I accept that they can hit it while cloaked. Now they only have to detect it.

It will wear off... But with a time dilation device, the Death Star will have suffered very devastating blows before being able to answer them.

More bullshit. A single plasma cannon won't blow away a planetary colony, but a single blast from a HTL will. Ergo, even a fully loaded Doomstar with plasma cannons is a pipsqueak compared to Death Star tactical firepower, never mind its main gun.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther

The subspace teleporter that has an efective range of several thousands kilometers means that the Doom Star can dodge the superlaser and appear behind the Death Star and continue hammering it beyond the range of turbolasers while the DS turns slooowly to face its enemy with the superlaser (certainly the only weapon with a slight possibility of making a one kill shot onboard the station).

Yet again, you demonstrate your idiocy. What part of "hundreds of thousands of turbolasers" are you too fucking stupid to understand

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position. About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

[Murazor]

And now... Something everybody has missed.
The Xentronium (more advanced material avalaible for armor) gives 10 points of armor for unit, while Neutronium gives 6. This basically means that Xentronium has almost twice the strength of the most powerful armor of the empire with the exception of quantum crystalline... of which the Death Star isn't made.

[Lord of the Farce]

In fact, things didn't happen that way. We know that the Force has a very significative penalty in hyperspatial distances (New Jedi Order) and that may mean that Obi Wan was only able to detect the traces of the destruction when they get close enough.

Care to provide an example of this? Because that certainly seems to be contrary to how Destiny's Way seems to portray Jacen's reappearance in the Force to be simutaneous despite the people who felt it being all over the galaxy.

In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

So are you saying that it is impossible for there to have been an Imperial outpost or a deep space recon ship to have been closer to Dantooine than the distance between Tatooine to Alderaan?

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

So it's stupid to have any sort of eventual means of escape near prisons, therefore all prisoners and their guards have to walk marathon lengths to go between the prison and any sort of transports? You're kidding, right?

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

And in all that time, it seems that not one person (care to remember where Luke & Co were?) needed to change their clothes?

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

What happened was NOTHING like a kamikaze bomber flying towards an aircraft carrier from behind.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther

Ehhh... I don't exactly see your purpose in claiming that a SW starfighter is hardly destroyed by over 200 gigatons of firepower, so I'll just leave it be.

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position. About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

And turbolasers (even lasers used on light transports) has demonstrated range in light seconds, your point?

And now... Something everybody has missed.
The Xentronium (more advanced material avalaible for armor) gives 10 points of armor for unit, while Neutronium gives 6. This basically means that Xentronium has almost twice the strength of the most powerful armor of the empire with the exception of quantum crystalline... of which the Death Star isn't made.

And would you care to provide any info on the thickness of the armour used? Twice the strength means about jack all if the thickness is insufficient.

[Murazor]

Care to provide an example of this? Because that certainly seems to be contrary to how Destiny's Way seems to portray Jacen's reappearance in the Force to be simutaneous despite the people who felt it being all over the galaxy.

It is said by Kip Durron's Padawan, that Niko something that said that he wasn't sure if he was going to be able to warn other Jedi about the Vong invasion because it seemed that they weren't close enough. The yammosk may have interfered, but it appears prettly clear that the Force does have penalties with distance in light years.

In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

So are you saying that it is impossible for there to have been an Imperial outpost or a deep space recon ship to have been closer to Dantooine than the distance between Tatooine to Alderaan?

I hadn't say so. Tatooine was in the outer rim and Alderaan in the core. However, the rebels would have made their best to hide their base, so the sequence of 1)giving orders of searching the unhabited Dantooine, 2)making orders reach nearby ships, 3) reach the planet (hyperdrive is fast but far from instantaneous), 4) locate the base, 5) send back the info to the Death Star, must have taken some time.

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

So it's stupid to have any sort of eventual means of escape near prisons, therefore all prisoners and their guards have to walk marathon lengths to go between the prison and any sort of transports? You're kidding, right?

They should have access to means of transport (those turbolifts) that the prisoner would be unable to use without some ID.

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

And in all that time, it seems that not one person (care to remember where Luke & Co were?) needed to change their clothes?

I don't think that it took weeks for them to reach Yavin, but hours. And they did change clothes. The Stormtrooper uniform, remember?

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

What happened was NOTHING like a kamikaze bomber flying towards an aircraft carrier from behind.

Of course... Having a light freighter (that was as big as a complete figter squadron) hiding in a blind spot the size of Texas isn't a sign of weakness.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther

Ehhh... I don't exactly see your purpose in claiming that a SW starfighter is hardly destroyed by over 200 gigatons of firepower, so I'll just leave it be.

The point is that Wong seems to consider that one shot of a heavy turbolaser means a dead Doom Star.

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position. About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

And turbolasers (even lasers used on light transports) has demonstrated range in light seconds, your point?

The point of the subspace teleporter isn't going beyond the range of turbolaser (although it would work) but from the shooting range of the superlaser (only weapon that means one shot one kill).

And now... Something everybody has missed.
The Xentronium (more advanced material avalaible for armor) gives 10 points of armor for unit, while Neutronium gives 6. This basically means that Xentronium has almost twice the strength of the most powerful armor of the empire with the exception of quantum crystalline... of which the Death Star isn't made.

And would you care to provide any info on the thickness of the armour used? Twice the strength means about jack all if the thickness is insufficient.

[/quote]

The Death Star is made of neutronium, right? (though I would want to know why it didn't pull Endor with its gravity). If the Doom Star is made of something much stronger... Then the thickness of the armor is suficient. And so weapons as the stellar converter that hit badly ships with Xentronium armor will hit haaard ships made of Neutronium. With the benefit that the Stellar converter does allways do estructural damage regardless of shields and armor.

[Connor MacLeod]

Do you have a problem with such examples? There are lots of them. Not to mention the planetary ion cannon at Hoth which had no problem hitting the small frontal profile of an ISD in orbit.

My policy on "what is canon and what is not" is that the films, their novels, screenplays, and radio dramas are canon. Everything else is speculation.

Doesn't that sound familiar? However, the Star Destroyer at Hoth (though given the size of the planet it didn't appear to be soo far away -perhaps one or two thousands km above the planetary surface-) is a decent example of mid-range using of beam weaponry.

My, aren't we quite the capable troll? You arbitrarily indicate it is "several thousand kilometers" based on your subjective impressions. Guess we can't beat that, can we? (It should be noted that the Planet Defender can target vessels in high orbit - tens of thousands of kilometers at the very least. Capital weapons have *FAR* greater range than planetary weapons, and ion cannons are shorter-ranged than turbolasers.)

There is also the fact the Death Squadron was established in the TESB novel/Radio Drama as being capable of bombarding the planet from "outside the system" - even if we conservatively assume they only refer to the planetary system - this indicates ranges of many tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers, minimum. (And for a *clean* bombardment, no less.)

That is not the only evidencee for weapons ranges:

1.) Rebel Dream: The Lusankya demonstrates the ability to target objects the size of ground vehicles at distances of tens of thousands of kilometers (the Executor-class is in a geostationary orbit above the planet.) They are easily able to direct their fire in such a fashion that their own forces can be close enough and not be harmed by the same bombardment.)

2.) Rebel Stand: New Republic Capital ship targets a Yuuzhan Vong worldship in orbit around Coruscant from outside the planetary system. This is indicative of weapons ranges of many light seconds or light minutes, at a bare minimum.

3.) Showdown at Centerpoint: The Light Cruiser Intruder demonstrates the ability to target a small shuttle from tens of thousands of kilometers out (again, it was in geostationary orbit.)

4.) Destiny's Way: The Millenium Falcon could target Yuuzhan Vong fighters (moving at near-lightspeed) with both cannons and missiles from tens of thousands of kilometers away, at a minimum (odds suggest it is "much" more distant.)

5.) The Essential Gudie to Weapons & Technology: It states that targeing systems allow Imperial gunners to target vessels "at the edge of visual sighting distance" - For a Star Destrtoyer-size target, this is thousands of kilometers, but this is also *grossly* conservative, as Imperial Gunners incorporate macrobinocular viewplates (if not electrobinocular) visual enhancement to provide at least 100x magnification, thus the distance can be literally orders of magntiude more. For that matter, if one uses the Executor rather than a Star Destroyer, the range also goes up rather steeply (tens of thousands rather than thousands of kilometers.)

6.) Ambush at Corellia: Demonstrates weapons ranges from tens of thousands of kilometers up to a million kilometers.

7.) The Krytos Trap: Duel between the Lusankya and a Golan platform demonstrates weapons ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers (Golans are anywhere from mid to geostationary orbit, and the Lusankya had just bypassed the planetary shield.)

8.) The Last Command: Thrawn attacks Coruscant and is able to target vessels and objects in low orbit, even though he is *far* beyond the range of the ground weapons. At a minimum, this is again tens of thousands of kilometers - but it could easily be twice that if not more, as Thrawn is also at the outer edge of the effective weapons range of the Golan defense platforms and other defense ships.

9.) Star by Star: Ability to engage targets while moving at relatavistic velocities indicates weapons ranges of tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, minimum.

Conclusion: Star Wars vessels can engage each other at ranges of thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers at a minimum, and can tarrget things millions of kilometers away (if not more, although this would generally imply a stationary/immobile target.)

[Durandal]

Let's not forget Thrawn's demonstration on the Noghri homeworld, in which his star destroyer in orbit fired on the ground at his command, meaning that, not only can turbolasers fire that far, but they can traverse a distance of tens of thousands of kilometers in a few seconds.

[Connor MacLeod]

In fact, things didn't happen that way. We know that the Force has a very significative penalty in hyperspatial distances (New Jedi Order) and that may mean that Obi Wan was only able to detect the traces of the destruction when they get close enough.

Cite some evidence of this please.

Of course, one could also point out that deaths on a massive scale were immediately detected both when Kyp Durron destroyed Carida in "Champions of the Force", as well as the deaths Kueller caused in The New Rebellion, but why bother trying to be objective?

In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

Of course, not knowing where Dantooine is sort of hampers your argument.

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

Considering there are other means of conveyance than simply walking, that is questionable. (It also assumes the Hangar, the detention area, and the garbage chute are somehow very distant from one another.) In short, yet more idle speculation on your part.

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

The Death Star was "in range" of the moon the very minute they'd cleared the gas giant. Tarkin had already given the order to fire by the time the Death Star blew up. Didn't you even bother to watch the movie?

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

ROFLMAO. The Falcon approached the Avenger from head on - they *Did* detect it - until it skimmed the bridge and latched itself to the back of the command tower and shut off all its systems. How do you expect them to notice it, or expect to focus active scans there, exactly? Not expecting something is not evidence of "poor sensor quality." Your name wouldn't be Mueon neccesarily, would it?

We should also note that "Ambush at Corellia" establishes that the Engines interfere with aft sensor scans.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther.

Proof?

We should also note that DS turbolasers are at LEAST 200 GT per shot (Ref: AOTC ICS, which is above official sources anyhow.) Provide evidence that a Doom Star's guns can match that, when they can't render planets uninhabitable.

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position.

About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

Even assuming we treat the WEG evidence as 100% true (its questionable, since they typically do not match the canonical armament of an ISD, much less the size discrepancies.), thousands of turbolasers at hundreds of gigatons apiece will be more than enough to shred the Doom Star, given that it has no way in hell of penetrating the DS's own defenses (they consider chemical warheads to be effective weapons even at high tech levels, for chrissake! Or did you forget about the Merculite missiles, or the more powerful Zeon missiles?)

[Darth Wong]

Continue, please. I've always liked the sound of the rain.

Empty rhetoric.

In fact, things didn't happen that way. We know that the Force has a very significative penalty in hyperspatial distances (New Jedi Order) and that may mean that Obi Wan was only able to detect the traces of the destruction when they get close enough. In fact, the time the Death Star had been there was enough to allow imperial scouts to reach Dantooine (a non-populated planet) in search of an Rebel base and as the rebels were unlikely to have a base near any imperial outpost, I would say that the Death Star had been sitting there for quite a time).

Please directly quote the source for your claim about this "penalty", and your estimation of it. How long do you think it was?

Considering that they had to run by feet from the garbage tank to the hangar and that that probably meant several kilometers (it would be highly stupid to have the prisoners near eventual means of escape and Imperial design isn't usually so stupid)... Yeah. They were some time in the Death Star.

Measured in minutes, not hours.

Yeah, about half an hour.

Plus the time that the Death Star needed to reach Yavin, that probably was also some MORE time.

Measured in hours, not days or weeks. They can go from the Core to the Outer Rim in hours, not days. See TPM and AOTC.

Compared to a few weeks? You're on drugs.[/b]

See above.

Where? The part where you make completely qualitative claims and end up with nothing but egg on your face? There is no fucking way you can concoct delays of weeks for the Death Star's recharge, never mind the fact that the official literature says it's a day at most (you know, the same official stat that you cited yourself, before trying to equate it to the stellar converter's recharge time of weeks).

And please, don't think that everybody around here is like you.

Empty rhetoric.

And I have used it up to three times in a turn last night only for being sure that you were mistaken (you owe me a Huge Gaia, a Medium Toxic and a Medium Terran).

You blew up three planets with a single stellar converter on a single ship in one game turn?

No... because the game doesn't allow such a thing.

Precisely. Therefore, stellar converters can only fire once every few weeks. You lose.

But I understood that you were saying that every empire does only have one planet killing stellar converter that they hide somewhere, never using it in battles.

Your poor reading comprehension, strawman fallacies, and red herrings are not my problem. You were arguing about stellar converter recharge rate. The ability to use three different stellar converters on three different ships in one turn is a complete red herring to an argument over the recharge rate of a single stellar converter mounted on a single doom star.

Yet another moronic statement. This is like saying that a modern aircraft carrier's radar is no good because it doesn't pick up some guy walking around on the flight deck. It wasn't designed to do that; it's not an indication of weakness, dumb-ass.

No... But if the modern carrier doesn't pick an eventual kamikaze bomber coming from behind, it is very bad designed and it is an indication of weakness and of clear limits for the accuracy of imperial sensors.

Too bad for you, then, that the ISD did pick up the MF approaching. They only lost it because they figured it must have gone into hyperspace and were scanning at long range for it.

Hmmm... This is a good answer. I accept that they can hit it while cloaked. Now they only have to detect it.

MOO2 sensors can detect a phase-cloaked ship approaching. They just can't detect it accurately enough to target it. Given a Death Star's vast turbolaser armament, they don't need to be that accurate. They can just blanket its general area.

A plasma cannon won't blow a planetary colony armored with a dome made with the best materials used for military shipbuilding. An heavy turbolaser won't blow it either, considering that a direct hit hardly destroys an shielded figther

A direct hit from light guns, not heavy guns, and one which invariably DID destroy said fighters. Red herring, yet again.

The subspace teleporter has a range of about 40000 km. This will seriously prevent the Death Star to get the superlaser in the required position.

A single tactical turn is long enough for fighters to lift off from the ground and get a significant distance into space. That's probably a few minutes, so I wouldn't wax too poetic over the rapidity of this subspace teleporter. Its movement range is much lower than the Death Star's weapon range of some 50 million km, isn't it? The Death Star can start taking tactical shots when the Doomstar is still about a thousand subspace teleporter jumps away.

About hundreds of thousands, my problem is the part of "Death Star I has 10000 turbolasers and ion cannons" that given its spherical form means that it only can target the Doom Star with half of that weaponry at most.

And you figure half of the Death Star's many hundreds of thousands of turbolasers will not be a problem because ...?