The Asgard and the Ori (and a few Ancients)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-09-23 11:25pm

It just hit me. The Asgard can more or less utterly defeat the Ori. And they could do it with a single ship no less. I am not talking about super nova technology or time dialation devices. Consider this.

Recently we have seen what the Ancient Disrupter technology is capable of. It can be selectively modified to be useful against a variety of targets. Human biological masses, or the bonding that holds together Replicators. This was shown quite clearly by Dakara.

This Disrupter technology is not limited to the Ancients. Both the Asgard and SGC have this technology. This is thanks to a Colonel Jack O'Neill. When he had the Ancients library uploaded into his brain, he built a disrupter weapon for use against the Replicators. The Asgard quickly adapted the technology and scaled it up significantly. They built omnidirectional ship mounted, directional ship mounted, and satelite mounted. Eventualy Earth was able to reverse engineer the original and build their own weaponized versions for infantry uses.

The Asgard demonstrated their ship mounted versions twice in Season 8 of SG1.

The technology of the Disrupters used by the SGC and the Asgard is fundamentaly the same as the technology of the Dakara weapon. The differe is merely a matter of scale. All the Asgard have to do is send a single ship with its disrupter modified for human bio mass. One shot and the Ori ship is completely unmanned.

Give the Asgard a little time and they can find the Ori home galaxy. With this done, the Asgard could easily put time dialation fields around each Ori planet and then induce the stars into blackholes. Ori threat taken care of.

The technology exists, has been demonstrated, and used. We know they are capable of doing this, and it would take but a handful of ships.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-09-23 11:28pm

There's only one hiccup I can think of- the technology of Adria's personal shield. If it occured to the Ori that there was a similar threat to the now-destroyed Dakara weapon (which penetrates current Ori shields, as we saw in "Counterstrike"), the possibility exists they would adapt that shield to their ships. Assuming it's possible.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2006-09-23 11:44pm

There's another hiccup. In the Ori home galaxy, there aren't any Ancients around to keep the Ori from directly intervening to protect their followers.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-09-24 01:01am

...And a third, slightly less grand hiccup. Earth was not willing to sacrifice a few thousand people who had turned to the Ori in their own galaxy. They weren't willing for entire human populated worlds to be slaughtered just to stop the Ori. The Ori galaxy is no different. They likely have a great many humans (as we have only seen humans and nothing else), and we know resistance cells exist on those worlds.

A full all out assault by a Dakara like weapon would be effectively going genocidal on them. The SGC, and I imagine the Asgard, simply wouldn't go there. It might be used tactically, but likely not strategically.

Do we have any solid proof the weapon on Dakara penetrates Ori shields? We know the shields were down during the first blast because no one was around to turn off the shields when the team beamed into the Ori ship. We know that the sheilds were down again when they arrived at Dakara, as the team beamed out just before the wave hit. Are there any examples of this weapon working with the shield up?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-09-24 01:55am

We know that the Asgard weapon could pass through Replicator upgraded Hattak shields.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 04:35am

Alyeska wrote:We know that the Asgard weapon could pass through Replicator upgraded Hattak shields.

And an Iris which blocks a huge range of energy for that matter.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2006-09-24 04:54am

Perhaps the super-weapon on Dakara could get through the Ori ship's shields thanks to absurd amounts of power, maybe it had a ZPM powering it? That would neatly explain things, I think.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 06:54am

Dobut it, it didn't really appear to require power to move through things so much as it got through all but the most hyper advanced shields.

I mean the only thing we know that could stop it was Adiras personal shield and she probably has the best shield the Ori themselves can possibly design. The Priors were just as helpless as anyone else afterall.

The mountain the weapon was situated in itself was shielded, but the Ancients who built the weapon would know exactly what to shield against.

And Carter was very confident if any part of the Replicators survived the detonation with an intact subspace network, they would be able to shield themselves from the effects very VERY quickly. Hence the requirement to hit them everywhere in the Galaxy at the same time.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-24 08:30am

The thing is... The universe is a big place. Pinning down where the Orii are, could be difficult. I mean, just look how far I have them away in my fanfic.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2006-09-24 08:34am

This is funny;

'The Dakara weapon can by-pass all shields ... except for the shields shielding the control room of the Dakara weapon ... oh and the shield worn around some very hot chicks neck ... but yeah, apart from those they will be an instant hit agains Ori ships!'

Guys, the fact that both times the weapon was used against an Ori ship, the ship's shields were convienently down should tell you something.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-24 08:35am

I'd think the only thing really stopping the Asgard is resources.
I mean, what do they have left? One colony planet? A fleet of O'Neills and smaller ships, plus the refugee fleet?
I'd think they'd have to go about consolidating their new homeworld and taking back the Ida galaxy before going on the offensive against the Ori.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 08:47am

Crown wrote:This is funny;

'The Dakara weapon can by-pass all shields ... except for the shields shielding the control room of the Dakara weapon ... oh and the shield worn around some very hot chicks neck ... but yeah, apart from those they will be an instant hit agains Ori ships!'

Guys, the fact that both times the weapon was used against an Ori ship, the ship's shields were convienently down should tell you something.

Oh Grow up. We have OBSERVED it passing RIGHT THROUGH all known shielding be it Goa'uld, Asgard, Replicators, Prior shields... The ONLY shields we know resisted it were:

1. The custom shield Adira wears which is heavily implied to be uber Ori Tech built specificaly for her.
2. The actual mountain that that weapon is situated in, built by the people who BUILT the weapon itself.

THATS IT.

There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be. The fact that the Jaffa opened fire on the Ori ship above Dakara even with its shields up implies they had no dobuts about it rather then saying 'Uh, we're screwed guys, their shield is up...'.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2006-09-24 09:20am

There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be. The fact that the Jaffa opened fire on the Ori ship above Dakara even with its shields up implies they had no dobuts about it rather then saying 'Uh, we're screwed guys, their shield is up...'.

The weapon did work on the orii ship whilst the shield was up. Killed all the jaffa on it then adrea who then proceeded to annihalate dakara.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 09:53am

Zac Naloen wrote:
There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be. The fact that the Jaffa opened fire on the Ori ship above Dakara even with its shields up implies they had no dobuts about it rather then saying 'Uh, we're screwed guys, their shield is up...'.

The weapon did work on the orii ship whilst the shield was up. Killed all the jaffa on it then adrea who then proceeded to annihalate dakara.

Uh no. Carter knocked down the shield allowed her and SG1 to be beamed up, remember?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2006-09-24 09:59am

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:
There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be. The fact that the Jaffa opened fire on the Ori ship above Dakara even with its shields up implies they had no dobuts about it rather then saying 'Uh, we're screwed guys, their shield is up...'.

The weapon did work on the orii ship whilst the shield was up. Killed all the jaffa on it then adrea who then proceeded to annihalate dakara.
Uh no. Carter knocked down the shield allowed her and SG1 to be beamed up, remember?

oh shit, yeh. My memory is being shit for sg-1 at the moment.

An Ancient · Post by **An Ancient** » 2006-09-24 10:06am

Given that we know SG-verse sensors can detect incoming ships at FTL speed, what's to stop the Ori ships just waiting for an Asguard ship to turn up and popping it as soon as it appears? Or, for that matter, simply have another one as insurance, if one gets hit, the other takes out the Asguard. The only 'rapid fire' effect is the directional wave, the Dakara style sphere blast takes Asguard ships time to power up.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-24 10:08am

An Ancient wrote:Given that we know SG-verse sensors can detect incoming ships at FTL speed, what's to stop the Ori ships just waiting for an Asguard ship to turn up and popping it as soon as it appears? Or, for that matter, simply have another one as insurance, if one gets hit, the other takes out the Asguard. The only 'rapid fire' effect is the directional wave, the Dakara style sphere blast takes Asguard ships time to power up.

Even the smaller Asgard ships can withstand repeated hits from Ori ships.
A fleet of O'Neills flying in wouldn't have that much trouble I'd wager.
As for dealing with the Ori themselves - it'd be nice if the Asgard could convince some Ancients to tag along and protect them from any ascended type nastiness. It'd be in their interests too after all.

An Ancient · Post by **An Ancient** » 2006-09-24 01:06pm

[quote=Cao Cao]
Even the smaller Asgard ships can withstand repeated hits from Ori ships.[/quote]
Really? All I recall is the one Asguard ship in 'Camelot' that as far as I can tell was only ever seen to be hit by the smaller Ori pulse cannon's, not their uber-beams of death. Even a Ha'tak can take a few of those, not impressive.
[quote=Cao Cao]
A fleet of O'Neills flying in wouldn't have that much trouble I'd wager.
[/quote]
As above, I seriously doubt the Asguard ships could withstand more than a few seconds under fire.
[quote=Cao Cao]
As for dealing with the Ori themselves - it'd be nice if the Asgard could convince some Ancients to tag along and protect them from any ascended type nastiness. It'd be in their interests too after all.[/quote]
That would be nice, but the odds of it actually happening...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-09-24 01:36pm

An Ancient wrote:Really? All I recall is the one Asguard ship in 'Camelot' that as far as I can tell was only ever seen to be hit by the smaller Ori pulse cannon's, not their uber-beams of death. Even a Ha'tak can take a few of those, not impressive.

This matches my memory, too. However, the Daedalus class uses (probably under-powered or backwards) asgard shields. They were able to withstand one hit.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-09-24 02:03pm

Chris OFarrell wrote: Oh Grow up.

You first.

We have OBSERVED it passing RIGHT THROUGH all known shielding be it Goa'uld, Asgard, Replicators, Prior shields... The ONLY shields we know resisted it were:

1. The custom shield Adira wears which is heavily implied to be uber Ori Tech built specificaly for her.
2. The actual mountain that that weapon is situated in, built by the people who BUILT the weapon itself.

THATS IT.

There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be.

Why are you being so retarded? There is NO EVIDENCE EITHER WAY. You don't know that they wouldn't block the Dakara weapon any more than we know it would. That's because we haven't OBSERVED it. I thought this site was about EVIDENCE, and you don't have it.

I don't recall evidence of a prior's shield being active when the wavefront hit. Thus the claim that Prior shields are useless is also dubious. Perhaps there's a screencap or something that proves otherwise, though.

The fact that the Jaffa opened fire on the Ori ship above Dakara even with its shields up implies they had no dobuts about it rather then saying 'Uh, we're screwed guys, their shield is up...'.

And they had only tried this tactic once, against an unshielded, parked ship. What evidence do they have that it would work against an Ori's shields? Just because they had no doubts doesn't mean that they couldn't be wrong.

I refer you back to Ethon where everyone was so damn confident that they could take out a pissant sat weapon (and Carter stunned that it could penetrate their Asgard shields), or that the Ancients in the recent Atlantis episode were confident their creation wouldn't attack them. Did these turn out well? Confidence that something will happen doesn't mean it will happen. Jesus, this is basic stuff here.

Given the evidence we have, I would probably lean towards the possibilty that Ori sheilds can't block the weapon on Dakara, but I wouldn't be so idiotic as to make a declaritive statment as you have done on the issue. Nor would I strap on a bunch of weapons on an Asgard ship and rush to the Ori galaxy without first testing it on a fully shielded Ori ship.

Besides, we KNOW what protects her. A pendant that contains a piece of the holy city. If push comes to shove, the Ori are going to install little pieces of their city in shields all across their galaxy if this weapon makes an appearance.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-09-24 04:50pm

An Ancient wrote:Really? All I recall is the one Asguard ship in 'Camelot' that as far as I can tell was only ever seen to be hit by the smaller Ori pulse cannon's, not their uber-beams of death. Even a Ha'tak can take a few of those, not impressive.

I could swear the Asgard ship got hit by the beam weapon in the initial barrage. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
However those Ori pulse weapons are nothing to sneeze at either, they were tearing apart Lucien Alliance Ha'taks (among the better Ha'taks out there) effortlessly yet the Asgard ship's shields withstood them.

As above, I seriously doubt the Asguard ships could withstand more than a few seconds under fire.

As NecronLord said, the underpowered hand-me-down Asgard shields on the BC-304s can take at least one head on hit from the beam weapons.
Considering O'Neills represent the pinnacle of Asgard tech, designed to fight the Replicators I think they could give the Ori ships a run for their money. The problem is as I've said a lack of ships and resources on the part of the Asgard, whereas the Ori have an entire galaxy.

That would be nice, but the odds of it actually happening...

Still, are the Alterans so damn bloody minded that they'd refuse a call from their old allies to help the fight against their mortal enemy?
What am I saying.. of course they are. The writers will never paint them as anything else.
But I dunno.. rogue Ancients maybe? Is Oma still around? I didn't quite get whether she survived her battle with Anubis.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-09-24 05:12pm

Cao Cao wrote:I didn't quite get whether she survived her battle with Anubis.

It's a never-ending battle. From what I remember, she will be in combat with him for eternity, or some such.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2006-09-24 05:28pm

I doubt the Asgard would kill the followers of the Ori.
They did not go on a killing spree against the Goa'uld, a foe which would have been much easier for them to defeat.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 09:15pm

CaptJodan wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote: Oh Grow up.

You first.

Hello, was I talking to you dipshit?

We have OBSERVED it passing RIGHT THROUGH all known shielding be it Goa'uld, Asgard, Replicators, Prior shields... The ONLY shields we know resisted it were:

1. The custom shield Adira wears which is heavily implied to be uber Ori Tech built specificaly for her.
2. The actual mountain that that weapon is situated in, built by the people who BUILT the weapon itself.

THATS IT.

There isn't any evidence AT ALL that the Ori ship shields would be any more effective in blocking the wavefront then anyone ELSES shields would be.
Why are you being so retarded? There is NO EVIDENCE EITHER WAY.

Of COURSE there is no evidence. Oh except for the fact that EVERY starship shield ever seen has completly failed to block the wavefront and there is no evidence suggesting that the Ori shields are any different, EXCEPT for a single personal shield the Orici herself wares which is heavily implied to partake directly of the power of the Ori themselves.

You don't know that they wouldn't block the Dakara weapon any more than we know it would.

It's not upto me to prove a negative. The Dakara wavefront has been observed to pass through any defense except the Oricis ubershield and pass explicitly unchecked through any ships defenses, PERIOD. We also know the Jaffa were more then willing to fire the weapon at the Ori ship when it arrived in orbit, despite its shields being up, in short there is no evidence that the wave wouldn't pass right through these shields as it does just about everything else.

The ONLY exceptions, once again, are:

1. The mountin itself, which is built by the people who built the frigen weapon.
2. A personal shield which 'has a peice of the temple of celestus' or some BS saying from Adria, implying its far more then a normal shield.

The Jaffa firing the wave against the Ori ship knew it was on the ground and sure as hell couldn't gurantee that they WOULD catch the ship without its shields down. Two Priors who have personal shields which can be activated at a split seconds notice (because of COURSE they wouldn't activate them with a massive wave of energy heading for them).

For the record, I don't absoloutly think there is 100% proof of the Dakara wave being able to pass straight through Ori shields, but the evidence is very clearly pointing that way both in terms of past behavour of the wave and fact that Adira clearly considered the weapon a deadly threat she had to deal with instantly, the fact that Priors couldn't defend against it anymore then the people on the planet and so on.

If you had bothered to read my original post instead of jumping in to a response to someone else and apparently taking it as a personal insult or something, you would see I stated that the ONLY two things that have been shown to stop the wavefront are the personal shield of Adira (not ALL Ori shield technology) and apparently some kind of shielding around the mountain, built by the Ancients who built the weapon.

On THAT evidence, there is NOTHING saying that the Dakara wavefront will have any more problems with Ori ships then with any other ship.

So try READING next time what I said.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-24 09:33pm

NecronLord wrote:
An Ancient wrote:Really? All I recall is the one Asguard ship in 'Camelot' that as far as I can tell was only ever seen to be hit by the smaller Ori pulse cannon's, not their uber-beams of death. Even a Ha'tak can take a few of those, not impressive.
This matches my memory, too. However, the Daedalus class uses (probably under-powered or backwards) asgard shields. They were able to withstand one hit.

Actualy they were able to withstand a bare minimum of at least 2-3 hits. If you count every time the ship is thrown around violently enough to throw people from their chairs as a beam hit (not an unreasnoble assumption as we don't see any massive secondery explosions on the ships or anything), it would be up in the 10 hits to collapse the shields, or there abouts.

And again this is an underpowered hand me down version of Asgard shields on a ship a fraction the size of an O'Neill...