Which fantasy empires could resist D&D's Baator/Hell?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-26 01:19pm

What fantasy worlds/empires could resist the onslaught of the Hell of Dungeons and dragons?
Here is a site detailing massive amounts of detail and fluff about Baator and it's inhabitants, I'll copy the stat blocks of the lords if anyone wants to see it.

The normal planar rules preventing Devils from freely teleporting and remaining on the plane have been disabled, although mass banishment spells will work if sufficiently powerful.
Unless stated otherwise the Blood war is still in effect meaning that the number of Devils is not truly unlimited in terms of availability.
The scenarios are:

1)holding out against a small regiment lead by 3 pit fiends and 25,000 lesser devils.

2) An invasion by one of the lords of hell being summoned and unleashed to their plane, who can summon any of his servants to come and destroy the plane. (Let's Say Mephistopheles or Bel or Dispater with a copy of his iron tower)

3)The whole empire/world is bought to the attention of the 8 lords of the 9 who will freely attempt to destroy, "eat" or corrupt it and it's inhabitants, and although the Lords themselves will not sully their hands unless threatened by some fool they will dispatch a few chosen lieutenants/archdevils to lead their dispatched forces.

4)Due to a cruel Joke, Asmodeus, avatar of the Overlord decides to test out his army of Nessian pit fiends on the world in question.
His army of Nessian pit fiends (Much, much larger/tougher.stronger/more dangerous than the normal kind) is apparently more than the largest army ever deployed in the war, and for this purpose he decides to dispatch a mere 6.66 million (Who can summon others if neccesary) to attack the chosen world, and he or his agents will take care of any cosmics or gods who might interfere.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-11-26 01:39pm

Death, you realise NONE of that stuff is 'canon' for Dungeons and Dragons in any way, shape or form.

If you want anything close to canon stuff for Hell from D&D/D20, refer to the following books

Monster Manual 2 (Nice detailing of some of hells armies)
Manual of the Planes (either)
a few articles in Dragon Magazine
Book of Vile Darkness (3e)
and the Planescape products.

NOT fan fluff

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-11-26 01:56pm

Ghetto Edit.

Also, the Hells in D&D are 9 Infinite 'Planes' under the command of one ruler that is worshipped as a god, and even grants mortals spells.

So, you're basically asking what FINITE organization can stand up to an Empire of Infinite size, power and resources.

The answer is: It depends directly on how much Hell decides to send against them.

All out war, no one.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-26 01:57pm

It isn't canon, but it does use just about every piece of fluff out there as abase and is a legal way for anyone to get stats that don't contradict any books (Stats wise a abomination from ELH would beat just about any lord of hell, and even a demi god could take over a layer with ease, or the Simbul would rpae a Lord of the nine instead of barely defeating a weak exiled arch-devil).

Frankly, the fluff and info there are better than what WOTC has been cranking out for years, and is a cheap free way for any non D&D fans to understand why even Netheril at it's height would barely be a speed bump to a lord.
In other words, it's a good source for stats that don't invovle copy right infringement, if you want I can state outright now that the hell in question is the one fleshed out in that site (Which build on the standard version, only improving some stats), after all OA is jsut glorified fanfiction with no base.

Post by **Edi** » 2005-11-26 03:32pm

What I can state outright that this massive spamming of essentially fluff threads with little or no use at all is starting to get fucking annoying. This thread here is particularly pointless. DEARH, do you actually have anything to contribute to this community but endless spam? Your reverting back to the habits you had as the .303 bookworm are not making you many friends here. I don't care much what happens to you, because you are fortunately ratehr inactive in my usual haunts, but even so the first feeling that comes to the fore whenever your name appears is irritation. That should say something.

Think about it. Because I'm not the only one, and I'm a rather disinterested party at that.

Edi

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-26 03:48pm

DEATH wrote:Frankly, the fluff and info there are better than what WOTC has been cranking out for years, and is a cheap free way for any non D&D fans to understand why even Netheril at it's height would barely be a speed bump to a lord.

Thank you for confirming your source is completely full of shit. The canonical history has Netheril comitting the following deeds vs. the Lower Planes.

Completely removing one Pit Fiend and his entire Hordes from the Nine Hells and dropping them into the Ethereal as a self-contained Demiplane. This was not an Archwizard, but a servant of one. Sword Play Novel.

From the same source, an Archwizard strides into said domain of the Pit Fiend, annihilates entire hordes with one spell, and is stated, by the Fiend, to be unkillable by him, even on his home turf.

In Finder's Bane we find that the Netherese Empire launched an all-out invasion of all the planes, but was eventually driven back. Eventually.

Then of course there's Elminster In Hell where Mystra gets her butt kicked by the Lords. Halaster and Simbul descend and Asmodeus himself rises up and considers their offer, because he knows these two could take out any of the Lords he wanted dead.

Oh. And Simbul is only a match for the Lord of Shade.

Any source claiming the Nine Hells can defeat Netheril is ignorant of the Canonical history and the sheer powerlevel involved. Netheril slew a Goddess and supplanted her. The Lords just wish they were divine.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Darth Sephiroth · Post by **Darth Sephiroth** » 2005-11-27 12:47am

Send in Lina Inverse, or give Kaze a fully repaired Magun and a lot of anger...

And if all else fails send in either Black Mage or Bun-Bun, both would be either ruling within days or have completely wrecked the place (Black Mage already pulled this off once I think)

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2005-11-27 03:00am

SirNitram wrote:Then of course there's Elminster In Hell where Mystra gets her butt kicked by the Lords. Halaster and Simbul descend and Asmodeus himself rises up and considers their offer, because he knows these two could take out any of the Lords he wanted dead.

....huh? How does Mystra herself get her ass kicked, while two of her followers are able to kick the lords? Was her avatar simply in a weakened state, from the large number of planes seperating her home and Baator?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-27 07:24am

Mystra blasts a large amount of pit fiends/lesser devils, but runs away before the infinite amount of devils can overwhelm her or a lord of the 9 comes to beat her, The Symbul was fighting powerful devils and one exiled Arch devil or "unique" devil, but not a lord of the 9 or established arch devil.

Halaster and Simbul descend and Asmodeus himself rises up and considers their offer, because he knows these two could take out any of the Lords he wanted dead.

You mean the part where Asmodeus laughs and makes hell itself shake?

Oh. And Simbul is only a match for the Lord of Shade.

Where has the Simbul fought Larloch or Prince Telamont Tenthul? (Lord of shade)

From the same source, an Archwizard strides into said domain of the Pit Fiend, annihilates entire hordes with one spell, and is stated, by the Fiend, to be unkillable by him, even on his home turf.

Pit fiends are the highest level of generic devils, menaing they are the equilevent of a lieutenant-general or general, the dark 8 are advanced pit fiends (Although it wasn't sttated in core WOTC if they have class levels or are merely fully advanced).
A Pit fiend has no advantages on it's home territory apart from being permanently killable, Dispater of the iron tower is untouchable on his home turf (Although he is the exemplar of the home turf=invincible lord).

Any source claiming the Nine Hells can defeat Netheril is ignorant of the Canonical history and the sheer powerlevel involved. Netheril slew a Goddess and supplanted her. The Lords just wish they were divine.

So the fact that Deities and demi gods says that the lords are equal to demi-lesser gods is nonsense? and the fact that the devils rule their layers despite the presence of multiple greater gods on those layers?
Under the Demigod>>>>Lord logic, Tiamat should have become the ruler of Hell long ago, she is a intermiadete god after all.

In Finder's Bane we find that the Netherese Empire launched an all-out invasion of all the planes, but was eventually driven back. Eventually.

Really where? I only read the third book in the trilogy and it sounds very intersting.
Still not as good as the Illithid who ruled the planes (Yet still stayed the fuck out of Hell, the Abyss).

Was her avatar simply in a weakened state, from the large number of planes seperating her home and Baator?

I may be wrong, but I think the layer seperation rule only applies to clerics, and Gods are merely stronger on their home plane.
I'll need to check my copy of Elmisiter in Hell, but I think it was Mystra herself who ran away from hell.
Also Ed greenwood said that the reason the novel didn't follow the outcome of a straight stat/cr fight is that he doesn't think Asmodeus should be as weak as his BoVD stats dictate.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-11-27 07:44am

A few points:

The Malazan Empire has enslaved demon lords and used them as cannon fodder in the past. They would have a decent chance of fighting off a diabolical invasion. They would also probably recieve aid from several gods.

Asmodeus's physical form may just be an avatar of his true self (Manual of the Planes). The stats in the BoVD just reflect the avatar.

Netheril, as Nitram mentioned, launched expeditions into other planes and into space. They eventually abandoned their expeditions.

As for the Mind Flayer empire, it is actually in the future. After some catastrophe, they projected part of their empire into the past, conquered whole planes, enslaved the Gith, and collapsed from expanding too fast while the Gith rebelled. That's why no one knows their origin. They just showed up and started kicking ass (Lords of Madness).

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-27 08:53am

As for the Mind Flayer empire, it is actually in the future. After some catastrophe, they projected part of their empire into the past, conquered whole planes, enslaved the Gith, and collapsed from expanding too fast while the Gith rebelled. That's why no one knows their origin. They just showed up and started kicking ass (Lords of Madness).

That is seriously cool, did it invalidate their origin from the outer planes? (The planes where having spiders in your brain is a literal statement)?
Also any explanation as to why they didn't send the knowledge of their defeat to the past?

The Malazan Empire has enslaved demon lords and used them as cannon fodder in the past

How powerful were those lords?
Thay (FR) managed to enslave a demon lord with an artifact from a Netheril old Wiuzard king Lich (Not a devil/archdevil from hell), before it broke free, caused massive earthquakes and left Szuss Taum very weak.

Also in case anyone missed it, the main strength of hell is it's infinite numbers, and access to massive amounts of magic and teleporting.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-11-27 10:33am

In answer to DEATH's questions:

1) No one knows where they came from. The Far Realms was always speculation and it remains so. They could still be from there. As for the knowledge of their defeat, only a fraction of their empire escaped to the past. They may have carried that with them or they could have lost it over the millenia.

2) The Malazan series is based on a D&D campaign. The demon lords are equivalently powerful. In Gardens of the Moon, one is contained in a jar djin style, to the used against that heinous, god-killing bad ass Amoandar Rake after he's been tired out putting down a Jaghut Tyrant.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2005-11-27 10:49am

I'm not familiar with D&D but I'm going to toss out the fantasy/mystical civilization that always comes to my mind whenever magic confrontations are brought up: Marvel's Asgard. How would they fare in these situations? Feel free to shoot it down as a stupid suggestion.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-27 12:16pm

Jason wrote: Marvel's Asgard. How would they fare in these situations? Feel free to shoot it down as a stupid suggestion.

Depends if Odin is involved, the Lords should be able to beat non greater gods (Thor exists in D&D although he doesn't have the same abilities as Marvel thor despite his 102 strength).
Odin on the other hand can destroy a galaxy, although the asgradians themselves would be overwhelmed but Odin (Especially in the Destroyer armour) would be too much for anything save maybe Asmodeus or on of the more powerful lords on their home turf.

The tyrants/Overlord/Lawful Evil would crush him, it's an overgod with a wider scope than FR's AO, but it would not get involved, and the ludicrous amounts of devils might win but it wouldn't be very costworthy despite the mindboggling scope of the war.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2005-11-27 12:49pm

So, does that mean they survive scenarios 1 through 3 and eventually fall in scenario 4 (although inflicting enough damage to make it not worth the effort) assuming Odin is involved?

Does anything change if Odin is dead and Rune Thor is King of Asgard (assuming Asgard isn't destroyed and is its normal self except for Odin not being around) with Beta Ray Bill filling in for classic Thor?

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-27 01:32pm

Rune Thor could probably Negotiate a truce due to the massive costliness of the attack in all circumstances except a open "portal" to the Asgard, the devils will come in although a organized massive army may not, but a solitary arch devil can do some nasty damage if he stays below his radar.

(3 powerful arcanaloths [Weaker than a base pit fiend- cr 18-19, possibly advanced hd] given prep time were able to raise an army that destroyed Myth Drannor itself by sheer weight of numbers, fiction has it that Devils/Demons can cross over permanently if given an invitation or open doormat [See Er'tu for an example and him beggining to raise an army]).

So, does that mean they survive scenarios 1 through 3 and eventually fall in scenario 4 (although inflicting enough damage to make it not worth the effort) assuming Odin is involved?

Probably, 6.66 million uber pit fiends that can each summon a few devils is a force commonly known as a "Apocalypse".
Rune Thor was much more powerful than Odin, he might be able to simply take Asgrad to a different plane, or set it up as another floating city in the upper planes like Bahamuts (If we accept a planar crossover)

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-27 05:19pm

DEATH wrote:Mystra blasts a large amount of pit fiends/lesser devils, but runs away before the infinite amount of devils can overwhelm her or a lord of the 9 comes to beat her, The Symbul was fighting powerful devils and one exiled Arch devil or "unique" devil, but not a lord of the 9 or established arch devil.

She summoned fucking Asmodeus and offered to off some lords in exchange, and he knew she was for real. Don't fuck with me.

Halaster and Simbul descend and Asmodeus himself rises up and considers their offer, because he knows these two could take out any of the Lords he wanted dead.
You mean the part where Asmodeus laughs and makes hell itself shake?

Yes. Probably thinking of what she'd do to a certain upstart.

Oh. And Simbul is only a match for the Lord of Shade.
Where has the Simbul fought Larloch or Prince Telamont Tenthul? (Lord of shade)

Larloch's a scribe. Don't bring him up. The Chosen went to Shade in the Sorcerer, end of the Avatar Trilogy, and don't beat him.

From the same source, an Archwizard strides into said domain of the Pit Fiend, annihilates entire hordes with one spell, and is stated, by the Fiend, to be unkillable by him, even on his home turf.
Pit fiends are the highest level of generic devils, menaing they are the equilevent of a lieutenant-general or general, the dark 8 are advanced pit fiends (Although it wasn't sttated in core WOTC if they have class levels or are merely fully advanced).

Whoop de fuck. A servant stole an entire domain of your precious Nine Hells from under his feet. Would you consider someone no match for the US if he casually walked off with one of the Four Stars and all the units under his command? Now what if this was one of the opponent's housekeepers?

A Pit fiend has no advantages on it's home territory apart from being permanently killable, Dispater of the iron tower is untouchable on his home turf (Although he is the exemplar of the home turf=invincible lord).

This one had quite a few, actually, so clearly he's one of the advanced ones. He had the ability to divinely recreate the terrain, repeatedly tilting tunnels into pits, opening eyes in bedrock, and conjuring new spaces. All after he lost connection to the Nine Hells.

Sounds like he really is a Lord.

Any source claiming the Nine Hells can defeat Netheril is ignorant of the Canonical history and the sheer powerlevel involved. Netheril slew a Goddess and supplanted her. The Lords just wish they were divine.
So the fact that Deities and demi gods says that the lords are equal to demi-lesser gods is nonsense? and the fact that the devils rule their layers despite the presence of multiple greater gods on those layers?
Under the Demigod>>>>Lord logic, Tiamat should have become the ruler of Hell long ago, she is a intermiadete god after all.

Don't lie to the people, boy, I have Deities and Demigods. It says there are rules for the Demonic to grant spells and they have a Divine Rank of 0, but can still grant spells. Page 8 boxed text. It offers alternate rules where they can be more powerful, but those aren't canon.

And why the fuck would the Gods want to rule Hell?

In Finder's Bane we find that the Netherese Empire launched an all-out invasion of all the planes, but was eventually driven back. Eventually.
Really where? I only read the third book in the trilogy and it sounds very intersting.

Finder's Bane is one of the Harper Books. That's the title. It has the Lich with the Spelljammer uncovering a Gate in the Anaurach large enough for his ship.

Still not as good as the Illithid who ruled the planes (Yet still stayed the fuck out of Hell, the Abyss).

Why would they want to go there, kid? It's hostile to their existance, why colonize it when there's more hospitable regions? Oh yes: Because you're a trolling dumbfuck.

Was her avatar simply in a weakened state, from the large number of planes seperating her home and Baator?
I may be wrong, but I think the layer seperation rule only applies to clerics, and Gods are merely stronger on their home plane.
I'll need to check my copy of Elmisiter in Hell, but I think it was Mystra herself who ran away from hell.
Also Ed greenwood said that the reason the novel didn't follow the outcome of a straight stat/cr fight is that he doesn't think Asmodeus should be as weak as his BoVD stats dictate.

That's nice. Simbul still strode through Hell. Lady Polaris still appeared in an more-powerful-than-normal Pit Fiend's realm and was untouched. Karsus still killed a Greater God and replaced her.

Netheril still takes the crown. Because you don't like this doesn't mean you get to lie.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-27 05:22pm

Archaic` wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Then of course there's Elminster In Hell where Mystra gets her butt kicked by the Lords. Halaster and Simbul descend and Asmodeus himself rises up and considers their offer, because he knows these two could take out any of the Lords he wanted dead.
....huh? How does Mystra herself get her ass kicked, while two of her followers are able to kick the lords? Was her avatar simply in a weakened state, from the large number of planes seperating her home and Baator?

Remember: Mystra is Midnight, a forty some year old woman's mind with a divine power behind it. Simbul and Halaster are centuries old and have smashed entire armies. The most likely reason is simply that Midnight wasn't ready for this battle; her battles with Cyric in Pandemonium in Trial Of Cyric The Mad demonstrated she hasn't changed all that much from a mortal viewpoint.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-27 05:32pm

DEATH wrote:Also in case anyone missed it, the main strength of hell is it's infinite numbers, and access to massive amounts of magic and teleporting.

You're a lying twat, can this be emphasized enough? Anyone whose read even a modicum of Planescape knows that the Nine Hells are definately finite in their size and population. It's the Abyss which is infinite in number and layers. And even they lack infinite Balors, as shown by the fact you aren't up to your eyebrows in them.

This '6.66 MILLION PIT FIEND!' wank is just that, unsupported fanwank. These millions never show up in any of the battles of the Blood War, their all-consuming war which is, you know, what ties up the infinite hordes of the Abyss and the incredibly powerful hordes of Baator forever and ever, to the safety of the material plane.

I hate fucking fanwankers, don't you guys?

Archaic` · Post by **Archaic`** » 2005-11-27 09:54pm

SirNitram wrote:Remember: Mystra is Midnight, a forty some year old woman's mind with a divine power behind it. Simbul and Halaster are centuries old and have smashed entire armies. The most likely reason is simply that Midnight wasn't ready for this battle; her battles with Cyric in Pandemonium in Trial Of Cyric The Mad demonstrated she hasn't changed all that much from a mortal viewpoint.

Granted, she's certainly lacking on a tactical level, and will be for some time yet, but as far as raw power goes, shouldn't her avatar have been significantly more powerful than any of her chosen?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-11-27 10:30pm

Anakin is more powerful then Obiwan, and that didn't help, did it?

All the power in the world is useless unless you know how to use it properly

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-27 10:46pm

Archaic` wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Remember: Mystra is Midnight, a forty some year old woman's mind with a divine power behind it. Simbul and Halaster are centuries old and have smashed entire armies. The most likely reason is simply that Midnight wasn't ready for this battle; her battles with Cyric in Pandemonium in Trial Of Cyric The Mad demonstrated she hasn't changed all that much from a mortal viewpoint.
Granted, she's certainly lacking on a tactical level, and will be for some time yet, but as far as raw power goes, shouldn't her avatar have been significantly more powerful than any of her chosen?

It should be... but all the power in the world don't help if you don't think to use it right. My argument is we can basically resolve the issue by thinking of it in terms of experience: The Simbul, with Mystra riding shotgun, had the power plus the knowhow to do the job. Raw power doesn't work on Baator, because the locals always have more than you, just as numbers never work on the Abyss.

lance · Post by **lance** » 2005-11-28 01:17pm

Don't lie to the people, boy, I have Deities and Demigods. It says there are rules for the Demonic to grant spells and they have a Divine Rank of 0, but can still grant spells. Page 8 boxed text. It offers alternate rules where they can be more powerful, but those aren't canon.

And why the fuck would the Gods want to rule Hell?

Actually the demon lords seem to be in a state of flux, like Thanos and omnipotence.
For example Orcus is a lesser diety as per faiths and pantheons pg 221.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-28 03:22pm

I apologize, I can't argue any of your points (I don't have most of my books and almost no 2ed books at all).
I conceed to your points, despite fighting a infinite foe over most of reality, a personal bodyguard held on one plane cannot be near 6.66 million, you are right, I am wrong.
Sorry Nitram.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-28 03:23pm

I apologize, I can't argue any of your points (I don't have most of my books and almost no 2ed books at all).
I conceed to your points, despite fighting a infinite foe over most of reality, a personal bodyguard held on one plane cannot be near 6.66 million, you are right, I am wrong.
Sorry Nitram.

Actually the demon lords seem to be in a state of flux, like Thanos and omnipotence.
For example Orcus is a lesser diety as per faiths and pantheons pg 221.

Also another Lord is G something from FR, an exiled former lord of the 9 who is a demigod yet was cast out of hell and couldn't apparently resist.