Mercenary chopper downed in Iraq

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Chmee
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Mercenary chopper downed in Iraq

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BAGHDAD, April 21 -- A helicopter carrying contractors for the U.S. Defense Department was shot down Thursday killing 11 people, including six Americans, U.S. and Bulgarian officials said.

The helicopter, a Russian-made Mi-8 piloted by a three-man Bulgarian crew, was brought down about 12 miles north of Baghdad at 1:45 p.m. local time.

An embassy official said the six American passengers worked for Blackwater Security Consulting, a North Carolina-based contracting firm that provides security for U.S. officials in Iraq.

The identities of the other two people who died in the crash were not immediately known, but a U.S. official said they were not Americans.

Blackwater has paid a heavy price in the war in Iraq. Two Blackwater employees died in March in an insurgent attack 60 miles south of Baghdad. A year earlier, four Blackwater employees were killed in the turbulent city of Fallujah and two of the corpses hung from a bridge, triggering a bloody three-week siege by U.S. Marines.

"The helicopter was shot by missile fire" according to a statement issued by the Bulgarian Defense Ministry in Sofia.

The Arabic language television network Al-Jazeera briefly showed what it said was the burning wreckage of the helicopter.
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God damn I'm tired of the media calling these guys 'security contractors' ... they're fucking mercs!
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Post by Aaron »

Of course their Mercs. But that sounds bad, so the Neo-cons came up with security contractors to make them sound more appealing to the public.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

They are nothing more than security guards. They guard shit, it's not like they're searching out and fighting the insurgency.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I agree with WP. They could've just been standard security guys rather than full blown soldiers of fortune.
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Post by Chmee »

IIRC, private 'security contractors' are the third-largest armed force in Iraq behind the U.S. and U.K. .....

They're being sent into hostile territory and engaging in firefights, the whole war effort relies on the size of this armed private force .... are they mercs in the Belgian Congo sense of the word? Probably not. But they're not rent-a-cops guarding a water cooler, either.
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Post by The Dark »

Used to be second...I don't know if it's changed, but last year the private forces had more persons in Iraq than the UK did.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Chmee wrote:IIRC, private 'security contractors' are the third-largest armed force in Iraq behind the U.S. and U.K. .....
Probably forth if you count the insurgency and maybe fifth behind Iraqi security forces. But unlike the U.S. and U.K. troops these people do not engage in military operations. I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. They protect personal and equipment and that is it. They are just like Barney from the mall minus 300lbs and with an automatic weapon.
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Post by Chmee »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Chmee wrote:IIRC, private 'security contractors' are the third-largest armed force in Iraq behind the U.S. and U.K. .....
Probably forth if you count the insurgency and maybe fifth behind Iraqi security forces. But unlike the U.S. and U.K. troops these people do not engage in military operations. I don't see why this is so difficult for you to understand. They protect personal and equipment and that is it. They are just like Barney from the mall minus 300lbs and with an automatic weapon.
So they never fire weapons at Iraqis, is that really your contention, or are we just getting into a semantics debate on what military operations are? I would guess the distinction is lost on the people taking incoming rounds from them ...

Dark -- that may be true, I wasn't positive if they were #2 or #3.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Dark wrote:Used to be second...I don't know if it's changed, but last year the private forces had more persons in Iraq than the UK did.
It's about 20,000 to 8,000 in favor of the contractors. However that still puts them far behind Iraqi goverment forces and probuably behind the insurgents. So forth rank would seem about right.
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Post by Chmee »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
The Dark wrote:Used to be second...I don't know if it's changed, but last year the private forces had more persons in Iraq than the UK did.
It's about 20,000 to 8,000 in favor of the contractors. However that still puts them far behind Iraqi goverment forces and probuably behind the insurgents. So forth rank would seem about right.
My ranking them third among 'armed forces in Iraq' was sloppy on my part, I didn't mean to include enemy forces ... I would have said 'third largest coalition partner' but of course they're not an official partner, nor an ally .... so what do you call them? 'Second biggest armed group on our side?' Sheesh, no wonder the media prefers 'security contractors', that's pretty wordy. If it's at 20,000+, does that still make them bigger than 'Iraqi forces we trust to not run away'?
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
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Post by The Dark »

Third among "coalition forces"? After all, they are a force working for the coalition, even if they're not a unified group under governmental control.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Chmee wrote:So they never fire weapons at Iraqis, is that really your contention, or are we just getting into a semantics debate on what military operations are?
Jesus are learning impared, or is your overwhelming need to stand on soap boxes and scream somehow clouding your judgement? These people fundamentally do the same job as bodyguards and mall rent-a-cops. Military operations would include searching out insurgents and weapons, engaging in patrols, ie playing offensive as well as defense. Security contractors simply protect things from those wanting to start shit. If the insurgants didn't insist on killing those who are working to rebuild their country then their presence would not be necessary.
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Wicked Pilot wrote:
Chmee wrote:So they never fire weapons at Iraqis, is that really your contention, or are we just getting into a semantics debate on what military operations are?
Jesus are learning impared, or is your overwhelming need to stand on soap boxes and scream somehow clouding your judgement? These people fundamentally do the same job as bodyguards and mall rent-a-cops. Military operations would include searching out insurgents and weapons, engaging in patrols, ie playing offensive as well as defense. Security contractors simply protect things from those wanting to start shit. If the insurgants didn't insist on killing those who are working to rebuild their country then their presence would not be necessary.
I'm not learning impaired, but I find the hairsplitting a little insulting to my intelligence, yeah ....

Some of them do armed convoy escort, right? So what you're seriously trying to argue is that search & destroy missions likely to involve contact with the enemy: military operation. Convoy duty likely to involve contact with the enemy: not military operation? If that's your distinction, okay, but I gotta tell you, a lot of us poor schmoes just see 'guys paid to do things that will quite often involve them getting into firefights with the bad guys = mercenaries'

Thousands of these guys are performing duties that, if they weren't hired, would have to be carried out by U.S. military personnel, requiring an increase in the size of the force deployed there and all the political costs that could involve.

I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint that these guys are not a merc force being sent out on search & destroy missions, or to conquer territory, but to claim that they are nothing more than rent-a-cops seems like a real stretch.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Oh look, Chmee is trying to impersonate his idol Daily "Screw 'em" Kos!

It's sooooo adorable......not
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Post by Chmee »

MKSheppard wrote:Oh look, Chmee is trying to impersonate his idol Daily "Screw 'em" Kos!

It's sooooo adorable......not
Not a clue what you're ranting about ... but then, I'm fairly used to that by now. Come on back when you have something constructive to add to the discussion, which WP was consistently able to do despite disagreeing with me completely.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
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an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer
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Post by Aaron »

As far as I'm concerned they are merc's in the sense that they are soldiers in the employ of a government yet they have not sworn allegiance to that power, and they are paid to be there. These guys motivation is money, if it was king and country they would have stayed in the military. Whether they are engaged in actual combat ops is besides the point to whether they are mercs or not. The fact that they are activelly being targeted by the rebels would seem to indicate that at least one side seems to see them as more then mall security guards.
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Post by tharkûn »

The fact that they are activelly being targeted by the rebels would seem to indicate that at least one side seems to see them as more then mall security guards.
No more than a robber who shoots the rent-a-cop as he cleans out the bank. Security gaurds are often targeted for the simple reason that they stand between the guy with the gun and whatever he wants to steal, destroy, or sabotage.
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Post by Aaron »

tharkûn wrote:
No more than a robber who shoots the rent-a-cop as he cleans out the bank. Security gaurds are often targeted for the simple reason that they stand between the guy with the gun and whatever he wants to steal, destroy, or sabotage.
I'd say that shooting down a helicopter full of them or hanging merc corpes from a bridge is a little different than gunning down a rent a cop whose in your way at the bank.
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Post by Chmee »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
tharkûn wrote:
No more than a robber who shoots the rent-a-cop as he cleans out the bank. Security gaurds are often targeted for the simple reason that they stand between the guy with the gun and whatever he wants to steal, destroy, or sabotage.
I'd say that shooting down a helicopter full of them or hanging merc corpes from a bridge is a little different than gunning down a rent a cop whose in your way at the bank.
Come on now, I see those rent-a-cops riding to their mall jobs in Mi-8's all the time!
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
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make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The mercs can do a lot more, but for this scenario, they're likely just protection for certain infrastructure sites such as political and industrial targets. They may have been told to do other tasks, but I'll bet the US et al have used their own spec-ops for any real problems since disavowing all knowledge isn't required here. To compare mercs to rent-a-cops is pretty fucking out of it.
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Post by tharkûn »

I'd say that shooting down a helicopter full of them or hanging merc corpes from a bridge is a little different than gunning down a rent a cop whose in your way at the bank.
All that has changed is the stakes, not the roles. The higher stakes lead to bigger weapons and more fun vehicles - just like the rent-a-cop for the mall vs the rent-a-cop for who rides on the armored truck filled money for ATMs. Hanging them from a bridge is in the same vein as morons who pose for pictures with their victims. Part of it is thrill and part of it is psycological.
Come on now, I see those rent-a-cops riding to their mall jobs in Mi-8's all the time!
Rent-a-cops can and due pack heavy weaponry and fun transportation. When the stakes are high enough, or somebody is paranoid enough; then money gets forked out for men on rooftops, federal fire arms licenses, bullet-proof glass, and dedicated SUV's.

The difference between the mall rent-a-cop and these guys is one of magnitude, not kind. They are being paid to shoot people who might want to dick over something their employer doesn't want dicked over. The only change is that the availible weapons on both sides are of higher caliber.
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Post by Chmee »

Yep, just rent-a-cops ....
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By Lisa Myers & the NBC investigative unit
Updated: 4:15 p.m. ET Feb. 17, 2005

There are new allegations that heavily armed private security contractors in Iraq are brutalizing Iraqi civilians. In an exclusive interview, four former security contractors told NBC News that they watched as innocent Iraqi civilians were fired upon, and one crushed by a truck. The contractors worked for an American company paid by U.S. taxpayers. The Army is looking into the allegations.

The four men are all retired military veterans: Capt. Bill Craun, Army Rangers; Sgt. Jim Errante, military police; Cpl. Ernest Colling, U.S. Army; and Will Hough, U.S. Marines. All went to Iraq months ago as private security contractors.

"I went there for the money," says Hough.

"I'm a patriot," says Craun.

"You can't turn off being a soldier," says Colling.

They worked for an American company named Custer Battles, hired by the Pentagon to conduct dangerous missions guarding supply convoys. They were so upset by what they saw, three quit after only one or two missions.

"What we saw, I know the American population wouldn't stand for," says Craun.

They claim heavily armed security operators on Custer Battles' missions — among them poorly trained young Kurds, who have historical resentments against other Iraqis — terrorized civilians, shooting indiscriminately as they ran for cover, smashing into and shooting up cars.

On a mission on Nov. 8, escorting ammunition and equipment for the Iraqi army, they claim a Kurd guarding the convoy allegedly shot into a passenger car to clear a traffic jam.

"[He] sighted down his AK-47 and started firing," says Colling. "It went through the window. As far as I could see, it hit a passenger. And they didn't even know we were there."

Later, the convoy came upon two teenagers by the road. One allegedly was gunned down.

"The rear gunner in my vehicle shot him," says Colling. "Unarmed, walking kids."

In another traffic jam, they claim a Ford 350 pickup truck smashed into, then rolled up and over the back of a small sedan full of Iraqis.

"The front of the truck came down," says Craun. "I could see two children sitting in the back seat of that car with their eyes looking up at the axle as it came down and pulverized the back."

"I said, 'Wow, what hit this car?'" remembers Hough.

Could anyone have survived?

"Probably not. Not from what I saw," says Hough.

The men assume that in all three incidents the Iraqis were seriously hurt or killed. But they can't be sure.

"It was chaos and carnage and destruction the whole day," says Craun.

Two of the men — Craun and Colling — say they quit immediately.

Craun, in an e-mail two days later to a friend at the Pentagon, wrote: "I didn't want any part of an organization that deliberately murders children and innocent civilians."

Errante says he also quit after witnessing wild, indiscriminate shootings on two other missions.

"I said I didn't want to be a witness to any of these, what could be classified as a war crime," says Errante.

Once back in the U.S., Craun — recipient of the Bronze Star — took the allegations to Army criminal investigators. The Army tells NBC News it's looking into the matter.

This is not the firm’s first brush with controversy. Custer Battles is a relatively new company in the booming field of so-called "private military companies" in Iraq providing veteran soldiers from around the world for various security jobs. Named for founders Michael Battles and Scott Custer, who are military veterans, the company quickly nabbed lucrative contracts in Iraq, where U.S. authorities needed firms who were willing to accept high-risk assignments.
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Post by Aaron »

The definition of merc from dictionary.com. These guys seem to fit the bill. Calling them security contractors is simply a nice way of putting it as merc has a negative ring to it.
mer·ce·nar·y
adj.

1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.


n. pl. mer·ce·nar·ies

1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

What the hell is that article suppost to prove? A security guard doing something immoral or illegal doesn't make him a mercenary, it just makes him a security guard who is immoral and/or a criminal. And nice hasty generalization there, you do it with such a nice touch. Never mind the fact that the only real specific example it gives involves Kurds doing the autrocities.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

mer·ce·nar·y
adj.

1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.


n. pl. mer·ce·nar·ies

1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.
That covers the Kurds, but if they're Americans working for the American Army then they're not mercenaries right? If they are, then at my base are the civilian contractors who man the gate, instruct academics, clean the offices, mow the grass, etc, mercenaries also?
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