Marriage and Transexuals

[Alyeska]

I just read about an interesting dilemma facing conservatives who want to “protect” marriage in the newspaper today.

The transsexual loophole.

There is a case of a married couple where the husband has undergone sexual reassignment and is now a woman. They are still legally married, though her/his gender status has yet to be changed.

As far as the “morality” brigade is concerned, this situation puts them in a bad spot no matter what happens. If this person’s gender isn’t legally changed, for all intents and purposes you have two women married. If this persons gender is legally changed, you legally have two women married. If you annul the marriage, you recognize that transsexuals can in fact change their sex.

[Aaron]

I wasn't aware that acknowledging that transsexuals can change their sex was a problem. Is that another fundie trait?

[Alyeska]

Several fundies absolutely refuse to acknowledge that people can change their sex. And now they are faced with the situation of people going through with the surgery and now having relationships with people of the same sex as their outward appearance. Deny them marriage, and you legitimize the sexual reassignment.

[Lord Zentei]

I just read about an interesting dilemma facing conservatives who want to “protect” marriage in the newspaper today.

The transsexual loophole.

There is a case of a married couple where the husband has undergone sexual reassignment and is now a woman. They are still legally married, though her/his gender status has yet to be changed.

As far as the “morality” brigade is concerned, this situation puts them in a bad spot no matter what happens. If this person’s gender isn’t legally changed, for all intents and purposes you have two women married. If this persons gender is legally changed, you legally have two women married. If you annul the marriage, you recognize that transsexuals can in fact change their sex.

They would probably try to outlaw the practice of sex change. Then they would most likely try to annul the marriage, citing that the sex was changed, but not with a legal or moral right to do so.

[Alyeska]

To quote someone we all love to hate.

That's why changing your sex is immoral in the first place.

[Aaron]

Several fundies absolutely refuse to acknowledge that people can change their sex. And now they are faced with the situation of people going through with the surgery and now having relationships with people of the same sex as their outward appearance. Deny them marriage, and you legitimize the sexual reassignment.

Well denying scientific reality seems to be a staple for them, so I'm really not surprised.

Thats why changing your sex is immoral in the first place.

How can something like that be immoral? Having a sex change doesn't make you automatically commit evil acts.

[Lord Zentei]

Thats why changing your sex is immoral in the first place.

How can something like that be immoral? Having a sex change doesn't make you automatically commit evil acts.

It is the sex change itself they consider a sin: it contravenes the decisions of God, you see.

[Alyeska]

AP Source

Transsexual Marriage a Legal Catch-22

By ERIK STETSON Associated Press Writer

CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - Judi Howden went into her marriage knowing full well that one day her husband might become her wife.

The couple stayed together - even as Howden's husband, Michael, underwent a sex-change operation that transformed him into Mikayla. That surgery also landed them in a murky area where gender and law collide.
Click here to find out more!

Their marriage - once between a man and a woman - is now between a woman and a woman, despite a ban on such unions in 40 states, including New Hampshire.

Their experience highlights a legal Catch-22. While states can either recognize or refuse to recognize someone's new gender following a sex change, either decision inescapably permits some form of same-sex marriage.

If the gender change is recognized, then existing, heterosexual marriages such as the Howdens' become same-sex. If recognition is denied, a de facto same-sex marriage emerges since the spouses' genders differ only on paper, not visibly.

"I have no answer to it," said state Rep. Dan Itse, a Republican who supports the state's same-sex marriage ban. "We have ventured where angels fear to tread."

The federal government must decide if Mikayla Howden, a U.S. citizen born overseas, can update her birth certificate. It hasn't yet ruled, and Shannon Minter, of the National Center for Lesbian Rights in California, said the Bush administration has not been as accommodating as earlier administrations.

According to the center, four states don't permit gender updates: Tennessee, Ohio, Kansas and Texas. About half of the remaining states do. A firm policy hasn't been legally well established in the remaining states, including New Hampshire, said Minter, the center's legal director.

"Whether or not society will acknowledge our marriage, I think, is my biggest fear," Judi Howden said. "That someday, someone may pass legislation that says, `Because you are now two females, you are no longer married.' For anyone to say that they have the right to break up a family, I don't think is right."

The Howdens' marriage clearly was legal when it began, and same-sex marriage bans cannot automatically invalidate it, Minter said, just as states don't automatically annul marriages for adultery or abuse.

But at least one conservative group would like to change that. The Rev. Louis Sheldon, founder and chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition in Washington, D.C., said marriages such as the Howdens' should be dissolved.

"Absolutely," he said. "We don't want the roof to leak in any place. We must make sure that marriage is protected."

Sheldon's coalition, a lobby claiming more than 43,000 member churches, is crafting an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to ban same-sex marriages and civil unions. The Howdens, he said, have slipped through a "legal loophole."

Judi Howden may be in a legal loophole, but she said she's happy. Her household is like many across America. There are prayers at meal times and children's toys in every room.

Her wedding to Michael Howden nearly four years ago - her second marriage - has produced love and another child. She said she struggled with Mikayla's emergence, but struggled even more with the idea of separating.

"There was so strong of a connection for Mikayla and I," she said. "I never knew that there was such a relationship out there in the world."

Social conservatives often portray same-sex marriage as a moral issue. But Mikayla Howden called changing her gender a life-and-death decision, not a lifestyle choice. Living as a man was fundamentally wrong, she said, and nearly led her to suicide.

"What are you going to pick? You certainly hope for the point of wanting to pick life," said Mikayla Howden, who changed her name in 2003 and underwent a sex change in September. "So many of us, because of society, choose death."

Transsexuals are not the only people who have sex-change operations. Surgery also is used to treat "intersex" conditions such as improperly formed genitalia.

Updating birth certificates isn't the only legal challenge facing transsexuals. State gay-marriage bans complicate such core activities as buying and inheriting property together or collecting insurance.

In 1999, a Texas appeals court upheld a ruling against a transsexual who became a woman and married a man. The court ruled the marriage an invalid union of two men, denying the transsexual money from a wrongful death settlement after her husband died.

Cases in Florida and Illinois are addressing whether transsexuals who have become men are legally fathers of children who were born through artificial insemination or adopted into their families while they were married.

And in California, a transsexual who became a woman is challenging a ruling that denied her husband citizenship because she was born male, Minter said.

"The human consequences are really painful," Minter said.

For the Howdens, the responsibilities of home and raising a family - a child of their own and two from Judi Howden's previous marriage - have helped them through tough emotional times. So has open, honest communication.

"It isn't always easy, but it's the most important, even when it comes to your fears," Judi Howden said. "Because when you hold those fears inside, it doubles them."

Read the spot in bold. If such marriages are anulled on religiously bassed reasons, then the sexual reassignment is accepted by those religious people.

[Pick]

Wow, I'm kind of curious about this. I guess it would be a matter of priority for them at this point. Still, seems an interesting dilemma for them. I'm still guessing they'd side with "protect marriage!11!!" as their main point, however.

But I'm, by their standards, crazy, and don't mind if people change their gender or are married to whoever they want. Makes my perspective on this pretty easy

[Lord Zentei]

"Absolutely," he said. "We don't want the roof to leak in any place. We must make sure that marriage is rotected."

Read the spot in bold. If such marriages are anulled on religiously bassed reasons, then the sexual reassignment is accepted by those religious people.

Yes, I saw that. Read my post:

They would probably try to outlaw the practice of sex change. Then they would most likely try to annul the marriage, citing that the sex was changed, but not with a legal or moral right to do so.

They accept the change but not the morality of it, because it "interferes with God's work". Much the same reason they oppose GM and abortion, yes?

[Fuzzy]

If god doesnt like it, then he can go ahead and stop it. We don't need these people interpreting a thousand plus year old book to destroy human rights.

[Lord Zentei]

If god doesnt like it, then he can go ahead and stop it. We don't need these people interpreting a thousand plus year old book to destroy human rights.

Indeed, their use of the Bible for this purpose is nothing new.

[Psycho Smiley]

If god doesnt like it, then he can go ahead and stop it. We don't need these people interpreting a thousand plus year old book to destroy human rights.

[fundie]Ah, but God acts through us. When we trample human rights, er, follow God's will, that is God acting.[/fundie]

If Judi and Mikayla are happy, I don't see a problem. And breaking up their marriage, against their will, and which has produced a child before the operation would be fucking cruel. Protecting the family my fucking ass.

[Justforfun000]

This "protecting the family" is bullshit. They are trying to protect their religious beliefs that they want rammed down people's throats. Period.

[Darth Wong]

Where were these "protect the family" groups when people started using pre-nuptial agreements to nullify part or all of their marital obligations?

[Broomstick]

"But at least one conservative group would like to change that. The Rev. Louis Sheldon, founder and chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition in Washington, D.C., said marriages such as the Howdens' should be dissolved.

"Absolutely," he said. "We don't want the roof to leak in any place. We must make sure that marriage is protected."

Lovely doublethink.

"In order to protect marriage, sir, we had to destroy the marriage, sir!"

Wish people would mind their own fucking business.... and leave the business of who is fucking whom alone.

[Darth Servo]

I've known churches who would tell the person who got the sex change to change it back.

[Tsyroc]

Along the same lines, what about people who are androgen resistant (aka Testicular feminization) ?

http://health.yahoo.com/ency/adam/001180/overview

Definition

A syndrome found in a person who has X,Y chromosomes, but who is resistant to androgens (male hormones). As a result, the individual has some or all of the physical characteristics of a female.

The syndrome is divided into two main categories: complete and incomplete. Complete testicular feminization results in someone who looks outwardly female. In the incomplete forms of testicular feminization syndrome, the degree of sexual ambiguity runs the gamut.

Alternative Names

Androgen insensitivity syndrome
Causes, incidence, and risk factors

The syndrome is caused by various genetic mutations on the X chromosome. The mutations make a developing male baby unable to respond to androgens. (Androgens are responsible for male physical characteristics.)

If the androgen insensitivity is complete, this prevents the development of the penis and other male body parts. The child is born appearing to be a girl. The complete form occurs in as many as 1 in 20,000 live births.

<snip>

In its classic form (complete androgen resistance), the person appears to be female but has no uterus, and has sparse armpit and pubic hair. At puberty, female secondary sex characteristics (e.g., breasts) develop, but menstruation and fertility do not.

Complete testicular feminization is rarely discovered during childhood, unless a mass is felt in the abdomen or groin that turns out to be a testicle when it is explored surgically. Most with this condition are not diagnosed until they fail to menstruate or they try to become pregnant and find that they are infertile.

Incomplete testicular feminization, however, is often discovered during childhood because a person may have both male and female physical characteristics. Many have partial fusion of the labioscrotal folds, some degree of clitoromegaly, and short, blind-ending vaginas. The individual is often diagnosed because of ambiguous genitalia. Sometimes, though, the person has primarily male characteristics and the only symptom is a low sperm count as an adult, perhaps with breast enlargement.
Signs and tests

Signs may include:

* vagina present but no cervix or uterus
* normal female breast development
* testes in the inguinal canal, labia, or abdomen
* inguinal hernia with palpable gonad

Tests:

* Testosterone levels -- in the male range
* Luteinizing hormone (LH) levels -- high
* Follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) levels -- normal
* Sonogram -- shows an absent uterus or an intra-abdominal testes
* Androgen receptor studies (research setting) may confirm the syndrome

Tests which may distinguish androgen resistance from androgen deficiency (or 5-alpha reductase deficiency):

* Increased basal and hCG-induced testosterone
* Normal dihydrotestosterone

What are people who are obsessed with one man, one woman marriages going to say about someone who fits into this category?

They were born that way so it's not usually a choice by them. In the cases where the child has ambiguous genitalia quite often the choice of what gender the child is going to be assigned is made rather early by the parents, probably too early.

[Darth Servo]

What are people who are obsessed with one man, one woman marriages going to say about someone who fits into this category?

Probably something like "the wrong sperm got into the egg and God fixed the problem"

[Darth Wong]

In my experience, religious people who are confronted by situations like this simply mumble that reparative and sex-change therapies are "unnatural" and dismiss them as something which is irrelevant to the argument.

[kokuwagata]

In some cases, the person doesn't reassign their sex, they only crossdress, because they feel that hormones and surgery is too risky.

Of course, cross-dressing is against the Bible, along with wearing blended fiber clothing and women wearing pants.

[Guy N. Cognito]

Here's one that would throw religious people in a loop. What if both partner's changed sex? Would we have to destroy the marriage as well? Technically it's still between a man and a woman, but they both have done something unnatural. So does that constitute grounds for nullifying the marriage?

[Col. Crackpot]

meh, geneticly the post-op transexual is still their original sex. Just have her/him pee into a cup and show the fundie an X/Y chromosome. cased closed.

[Darth Servo]

Transexuals and all the other fags deserve to die.

I do so love the smell of B-B-Qd newbie in the evening.