Russia Invades Japan

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-12-25 02:51pm

OK in an alt history What would the result be if Russia tried to invade the Japanese home islands in 1945?Would the russians know what to expect from them?and could they accept the losses incurred?

R.O.A · Post by **R.O.A** » 2004-12-25 03:01pm

If the Japanise could intercept the russians it might stall them a bit. The japanise air force had low ammo and fuel so it wouldent last long. THe japanise had 2 million troops, so they would have an advantage in troop numbers. However the russian (I forget the name) tanks could eaisily destroy the japanise ones so they would have to use there infantry to stop them resulting in heavy losses for the japs.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-25 03:47pm

Main Russian force was in Europe, and supplying an army big enough to take the japanese islands would have been next to impossible. Maybe with huge losses they could have pulled it off, but their economy would taken a bad hit. By 1945 the red army was already at the end of it's supplies in the west, and it had vast territories to guard. It would've been bad blow to the after war Soviet union to undertake such a risky operation.

-Gunhead

R.O.A · Post by **R.O.A** » 2004-12-25 04:00pm

However the Russians werent the only ones without much supplies. The last japanise fuel depo was took out by united states stratigic bombers so they wouldent have much of a mechanised force to fight back with due to the loss of fuel. The Russians would prevail if they could get a large enough force to Japan which would be difficult. It would be a bitter struggle for both sides.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-25 04:08pm

Also should be noted that Japan was within US sphere of influence, and they wouldn't have just sit idly while ruskies take something that was "theirs".

-Gunhead

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-12-25 04:27pm

The Russians in 1945 had limited naval and virtually no gator capabilites: they didn't even have any carriers, which would be essential to provide air cover to the invasion forces.

Given the defences Japan had waiting for the anticipated American invasion (Including thousands of Kamikazes, Kaiten, and other suicide weapons that would be employed against landing craft) an invasion of Japan would have been extremly costly even for the US, who in 1945 had had naval and gator capabilites that were above those of any other nation by a huge margin.

There is no way in hell the Russians could have pulled it off in '45.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-25 04:46pm

The Russians had nothing like then necessary sealift to accomplish an invasion and their entire Pacific fleet had one cruiser and about one squadron worth of destroyers. It would not have taken many kamikazes, or even conventional bombing sorties to turn even a limited landing, perhaps against Hokkaido, into a total fiasco.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-12-25 07:10pm

Off to OT you go! For ze glory of ze Mozerland!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-30 10:07am

Main Russian force was in Europe, and supplying an army big enough to take the japanese islands would have been next to impossible.

A great number of Russian troops were already engaging the Japanese in Manchuria. After Germany was defeated, the Russians promised the Americans they'd go after the Japanese next. As said, Manchuria was taken, as well as some islands, before Japan surrendered.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-30 10:19am

If the Russians somehow snuck an army into Hokkaido or Honshu, there would be casualties. Lots and lots of casualties, as the civilians and military fight to the death against the invaders.

And let's not forget that Japanese prisoners of war and civilians in Russian-occupied Manchuria has a tendency to die off at rather conspiciously high rate. If in some bizarre alt-hist world Russia was the occupying power in Japan, Japan would be fucked.

Proper fucked.

Before "zee Germans" get there.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2004-12-30 05:11pm

Bellator wrote:
Main Russian force was in Europe, and supplying an army big enough to take the japanese islands would have been next to impossible.
A great number of Russian troops were already engaging the Japanese in Manchuria. After Germany was defeated, the Russians promised the Americans they'd go after the Japanese next. As said, Manchuria was taken, as well as some islands, before Japan surrendered.

However, the Japs are in China and nothing says USSR South like Reds rolling all over China. Stalin thought Mao Zedong had too much freedom as it was, he might of tried to set up a Moscow run Chinese state out of Manchuria or Beijing.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-30 06:06pm

possible, possible. But remember that Russia already had invaded and taken several small Japanese islands at this point. They weren't just invading continental Asia.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-12-30 07:01pm

Bellator wrote:possible, possible. But remember that Russia already had invaded and taken several small Japanese islands at this point. They weren't just invading continental Asia.

The total Japanese garrison of those areas, however, amounted to only a couple weak divisions, spread over dozens of islands. Overrunning them was rather easy, and the number of sorties the Japanese flew to attack the invasion forces could pretty much be literally counted with your fingers if not a single hand. Plus Russia had a historical claim and grudge to settle so far as the Kurlies and Sakhalin went. They don't have that for Hokkaido.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2004-12-30 07:18pm

A good modern comparison would be China and Taiwan .... China is nearly a superpower as long as it stays on the continent of Asia, but it comes to that leeeeeeetle body of water to cross and says 'Damn, we look about as tough as Uruguay!'

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2004-12-30 08:26pm

The China comparison is horrible and Sea Skimmer started down some of the scary roads with this in as much as that Russia didn't care if it had very little amphib capabilities. They were just as willing to send troops to the slaughter as the Japanese were and they had better logistics and better equipment by that time. Moreover almost all of the Japanese preparations prior to the invasion of Manchuria were directed towards a US landing in Kyushu or Honshu. The amount of troops and prepared defenses awaiting a quick Russian strike in late August would be pitiable at best and the Russians had plans in the work to be on one of the islands by then. The problem then is that Russia, despite not previously having a claim against Japan, now really couldn't be kept out of the administration of Japan with very interesting consequences.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2004-12-30 08:36pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:The China comparison is horrible and Sea Skimmer started down some of the scary roads with this in as much as that Russia didn't care if it had very little amphib capabilities. They were just as willing to send troops to the slaughter as the Japanese were and they had better logistics and better equipment by that time. Moreover almost all of the Japanese preparations prior to the invasion of Manchuria were directed towards a US landing in Kyushu or Honshu. The amount of troops and prepared defenses awaiting a quick Russian strike in late August would be pitiable at best and the Russians had plans in the work to be on one of the islands by then. The problem then is that Russia, despite not previously having a claim against Japan, now really couldn't be kept out of the administration of Japan with very interesting consequences.

I don't think it's all that horrible ... big armies with lousy amphib capabilities find out just how much they needed them when they try to mount a major operation. The Wehrmacht looked unstoppable until it hit the English channel, and who knows, maybe if they hadn't totally screwed the pooch in the Battle of Britain they would have made it look easy when they hit the beaches in Britain, but then again maybe they would have got their asses handed to them.

Those same 'pitiable' Japanese home-island defenses were the same ones we projected as involving horrific casualties and the necessity of using nukes against two cities, weren't they?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-12-30 08:38pm

Chmee wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:The China comparison is horrible and Sea Skimmer started down some of the scary roads with this in as much as that Russia didn't care if it had very little amphib capabilities. They were just as willing to send troops to the slaughter as the Japanese were and they had better logistics and better equipment by that time. Moreover almost all of the Japanese preparations prior to the invasion of Manchuria were directed towards a US landing in Kyushu or Honshu. The amount of troops and prepared defenses awaiting a quick Russian strike in late August would be pitiable at best and the Russians had plans in the work to be on one of the islands by then. The problem then is that Russia, despite not previously having a claim against Japan, now really couldn't be kept out of the administration of Japan with very interesting consequences.
I don't think it's all that horrible ... big armies with lousy amphib capabilities find out just how much they needed them when they try to mount a major operation. The Wehrmacht looked unstoppable until it hit the English channel, and who knows, maybe if they hadn't totally screwed the pooch in the Battle of Britain they would have made it look easy when they hit the beaches in Britain, but then again maybe they would have got their asses handed to them.

Except that Russia was currently far over-extended with Germany, and had already suffered massive casulties in the west. Whereas China isn't.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-30 08:38pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:The China comparison is horrible and Sea Skimmer started down some of the scary roads with this in as much as that Russia didn't care if it had very little amphib capabilities. They were just as willing to send troops to the slaughter as the Japanese were and they had better logistics and better equipment by that time. Moreover almost all of the Japanese preparations prior to the invasion of Manchuria were directed towards a US landing in Kyushu or Honshu. The amount of troops and prepared defenses awaiting a quick Russian strike in late August would be pitiable at best and the Russians had plans in the work to be on one of the islands by then. The problem then is that Russia, despite not previously having a claim against Japan, now really couldn't be kept out of the administration of Japan with very interesting consequences.

They could only possibly invade Hokkaido if they invaded anywhere at all. Fortunately for them the Japanese--who had hundreds of crack divisions still able to fight in defense of the home islands, and more than ten thousand aircraft still intact with just enough fuel for one mission each (also enough fuel, the same, for their suicide motor boats), along with truly massive defences--happen to have concentrated all of this effort against an American invasnion of the southern islands or the area around the Kanto Plain. Which means that Hokkaido was relatively ill-defended, and the Russians might actually take it, albeit with huge casualties. They might not, either.

In the end I see Japan being divided; Hokkaido might be directly annexed into the USSR (and might be part of Russia to this day), whereas the situation in the three lower main islands would probably go as-historical.