An "Interesting" take on Star Trek

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-20 11:19pm

Most of the ASVS regulars here will have already read this, but at least a few of the people here might get something (Though I'm not sure what.) out of this article.

http://www.mind-force.net/library/01/02_22.shtm

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-20 11:23pm

You know, the author was mocked on ASVS for (among things) calling Voyager a "battleship." But in comparison to most forehead species in the Quadrant, and to the only other Federation starship in the area, the Equinox, Voyager _is_ a battleship. And as for "techno-phallic," just look at the warp nacelles, general design of Voyager, or the phaser rifles.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-20 11:23pm

Seen it before, thought it was utter crap then, still think so. Just another person who has sadly missed the point of Star Trek.

EMLally · Post by **EMLally** » 2002-07-20 11:53pm

The point of Star Trek being... what? To showcase technological marvels? (*whistles innocently*)

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-07-20 11:58pm

EMLally wrote:The point of Star Trek being... what? To showcase technological marvels? (*whistles innocently*)

Or what life would be like in a mild, socialised version of INGSOC?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-21 12:04am

Too mucking long to read.

EMLally · Post by **EMLally** » 2002-07-21 12:07am

By techno-phallic, I believe he means techno-philic -- with a love and reverence of technology, with his intent to note that it is raised to the level of divinity in its value.

I've been reading the article since I found this thread and, well.. the fellow goes a bit overboard; his tone and approach is such as if to make it seem that as if the show is a willful and malevolent attempt to suppress individuality and to promote Euro-centric racism or values.

I'd have to say, though, that the fellow goes a bit overboard. Clearly, Star Trek isn't as idyllic as some say -- but the extremes the fellow would go to with the intent to trash it, well... if such zeal were applied to any other widely-known show or movie, I'm certain one could find similar issues to rant about.

Eh.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-21 12:56am

Imagine what sort of article this guy would write on Star Wars if he thinks Star Trek is bad. LOL!!! He'd write a thousand page book on the evil Empire alone.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-07-21 01:57am

EMLally wrote:The point of Star Trek being... what?

The point of Star Trek is to to extract a little money from a lot of people and deliver it into the pockets of a fairly small group of rich American frau...er...executives.

Next question?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-21 02:33am

Some of the points of the article are okay, but they fail to take into consideration the facts about many of the things that inspired ST and Disney films. I found this particularly glaring during the discussion of the Lion King. The author would have us believe that the reasons that light and dark are associated with good and evil is that white people from England decided that black people from Africa were evil when they colonized the continent through force? Beowulf CLEARLY developed upon this theme, and it was written at a time when contact with Africans (or, for that matter, ANY non-white race) was considered VERY unusual (though, not necessarily bad, just kind of exotic or interesting).

I also hated the section about the stars. In almost every culture around the world, similar explanations for stars abound. I would also point out that Elrond's father in the Lord of the Rings, is himself a star (though LotR is also an Imperialist book, it also reveals a level of mythological undertones to the concept of powerful beings becoming stars when they die). The first TRULY documentable culture to present this actually lived in Africa (though there is new evidence to suggest that they were a primarily Caucasoid race, with large amounts of contact with black Africans and Arabs.) The Egyptians DEFINITELY believed this about their God/Kings, and there is even suggestion that all of Gisa Plateau was designed with this theme in mind. It is also clear that the ancient Khmer civilization of Cambodia (so I don't seem western-centric) had similar ideas about the stars, as did many Hindu sub-faiths.

I agree with some of what the article says, but I think that to accept the whole of it would be folly when it is demonstrably wrong in a few areas which it takes deep interest in.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-21 02:41am

This guy actually has some points, but he stretches them into a big yawn. It could have been more brief, and less paranoid, sort of like Mike's % " page.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-21 04:08am

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund F.
The show ST TOS was conceived by Roddenbery, as an upbeat, "the future isn't all gloom and doom" counter message to the prevailing spirit of the times. (Zeitgeist) He had to sell this to network suits, who thought of it as "Gunsmoke in space". The main inspiration for all this was a near fatal plane crash, which made him reevaluate his life.
At the time, nuclear war was the boogyman.
The idea that things just might get better was so popular, (imagine that!) that the suits realy had to work at killing the show. Where there's a will, there's a way.
The other big reasons it worked were:
The writing was stolen from years of good sci fi written work.(Inever saw an episode that didn't have a better version already in print.)
The conflict between archeotypes, Practical, Ideal, and Emotional. (Spock, Kirk, McCoy.) The bad part was the cheese factor, directly linked to the shoestring budjet, and limited preSW special effects technology.
Everything since then, (TNG DS9 Voyager Enterprise) has been shlock, cranked out for the mighty buck. Each one inferior to the one before.
Hunger is the best condiment, and desire the best aphrodisiac.
Young minds, hungry for sf have lapped up this drek.

The person that wrote the article has "Issues".
He (She?) sounds like a typical over educated self loathing lefty, full of guilt about his place in the world, and how little he deserves it. West, bad, others good.
This is the kind of person that could find proof of the deep inherant flaws of western imperialism in a TV commercial for Lucky Charms.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-21 04:16am

Also, about this "light is good, dark is bad" as a metaphore of racism.
This idea was rooted in the idea of night being scary, because you didn't know what's out there. What you imagine is alway more scary than what you can see, (an idea the BEST horror movie makers know full well) and you can see better in the daytime.
You realy have to go to school to learn to be so stupid, as it just doesn't come naturaly.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2002-07-21 04:29am

Reminds me of the rant at the comic book convention scene in "Chasing Amy" about racism in Star Wars.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2002-07-21 04:34am

Also most storys have a protaganist and a antagnist , if you find yourself relating to the antaganist more, what does this say about you?

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-21 04:37am

EMLally wrote:By techno-phallic, I believe he means techno-philic -- with a love and reverence of technology, with his intent to note that it is raised to the level of divinity in its value.

<Snip>

I am afriad that he means techno-phallic, as in Technology and, well, the phallus...

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-21 06:56am

"Most of the ASVS regulars here will have already read this, but at least a few of the people here might get something (Though I'm not sure what.) out of this article.

http://www.mind-force.net/library/01/02_22.shtm"

The instant an article talks about "family values" as some sort of sacred cow, I know I'm dealing with a irrational person.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-21 08:18am

Wesley Crusher was never even half this cool:

"The young man's greatest aspiration is to become the captain of one of these surveillance and attack vessels of the Federation in space, the frontier to be tamed and conquered in accordance with U.S. techno-military colonizational zeal."

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-21 08:51am

Also most storys have a protaganist and a antagnist , if you find yourself relating to the antaganist more, what does this say about you?

Your Evil?

Or it was a lowsy story

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-07-21 11:03am

Mr Bean wrote: Your Evil?

Or it was a lowsy story

Not really. In the majority of well-written sci-fi/fantasies, the antagonist is a much more complex and interesting character than the protagonist. This is because the protagonist's motivation is usually simple; he wants to stop the villain from hurting people, or he wants vengeance. The Villain needs a reason to be evil, because no intelligent person is going to believe that a person is evil just for the hell of it.

Just compare Vader to Luke. Which character is more complex and interesting?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-21 11:30am

R2D2 silly question Pablo!

Heh seriously point taken

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-21 12:29pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Mr Bean wrote: Your Evil?

Or it was a lowsy story
Not really. In the majority of well-written sci-fi/fantasies, the antagonist is a much more complex and interesting character than the protagonist. This is because the protagonist's motivation is usually simple; he wants to stop the villain from hurting people, or he wants vengeance. The Villain needs a reason to be evil, because no intelligent person is going to believe that a person is evil just for the hell of it.

Just compare Vader to Luke. Which character is more complex and interesting?

No, I don't think this is necessarily true. There are many stories (LotR) in which the villain remains a sort of evil presence that is never fully explained. His goal is to take over the world/galaxy/universe or to destroy good. Protagonists are often characters who wish to remain neutral but are dragged into conflicts that they, at first, do not fully understand.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-21 01:22pm

Emperor Chrostas the Crue wrote:Also, about this "light is good, dark is bad" as a metaphore of racism.
This idea was rooted in the idea of night being scary, because you didn't know what's out there. What you imagine is alway more scary than what you can see, (an idea the BEST horror movie makers know full well) and you can see better in the daytime.
You realy have to go to school to learn to be so stupid, as it just doesn't come naturaly.

Exactly correct, this is a common MYTHOLOGICAL theme. It had nothing to do with racism when it was created. It still has nothing to do with racism. As a member of a minority race, I am affected by racism, but I am not the LEAST bit upset with people when they use the light/dark motif in writing, movies, television, speech, etc. I know that this is a common theme, and I respect the depth that it has. To associate psychological constants with racism is to accuse every person in the world of racism. This is a behavior that is as detrimental to minorities as racism, in the first place, because it helps give REAL racists ammunition, and helps to confirm some of their beliefs about minorities.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-21 05:40pm

Yeah, these kind of people like to take one thing, and associate it with a racist/sexist/evil image, when it means none of that.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-21 05:43pm

Sam Or I wrote:Also most storys have a protaganist and a antagnist , if you find yourself relating to the antaganist more, what does this say about you?

That good is overrated?

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An "Interesting" take on Star Trek

An "Interesting" take on Star Trek

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