Proof of the existence of Star Trek ground assault vehicles

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-19 04:39pm

Most compelling evidence:

This comes from an unlikely source- the entry for Targ scoop in the Star Trek encyclopedia it reads as follows:

"targ scoop Device used on the front of Klingon ground assault vehicles. Targ scoops prevented collisions with targ herds by emitting a high-frequency tone which dispersed the animals away from the vehicle's path. ("Elogium" [Voyager])

This could be a tank or APC either way the term ground assault suggests that unlike the Federation vehicle in Nemesis, it is meant for combat missions, specifically invasions.

Other evidence:

The isomagnetic disintegrator used by Worf in Star Trek: Insurrection. Does this weapon remind anybody else of an anti-tank gun? If it was meant to be used against enemy troops it would be overkill (something very unFederation). However, such a weapon would be useful in an anti-vehicle or anti-aircraft function. The fact that such a weapon exists and was present on the Enterprise-E suggests that it has a use in combat situations.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-19 04:40pm

The Encyclopedia is only admissable where it directly quotes episodes.

As for the device Worf had, it reminds me of a grenade launcher, but it's power is woefully low. A single frag grenade would have killed those people he fired into!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-19 05:06pm

So the Klingons have (or HAD) assault vehicles. Why aren't they ever used? In any case, the isomagnetic disintegrator that Worf had was LAUGHABLE. When I was watching that part of the movie I was wondering how powerful it would be (whether I would want to have one or not

). After I saw it, I couldn't help but think that it had no advantages over modern RPG launchers! Also, there are many reasons to have mid-range weapons like that. As you stated, it could have merely been an anti-aircraft weapon (we KNOW ST loves air support), or it could have been designed for damaging bunkers and other fortified positions.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-19 05:20pm

Master of Ossus: At least it puts star fleet ground combat on a level with modern ground combat in one aspect.

SirNitram: The episode that quote comes from is a Voyager episode Elogium I think.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-19 05:26pm

TheDarkling wrote:Master of Ossus: At least it puts star fleet ground combat on a level with modern ground combat in one aspect.

SirNitram: The episode that quote comes from is a Voyager episode Elogium I think.

That's true. It does kind of balance out the SFarsenal, though one wonders why the isomagnetic disintegrator would even be necessary if the yields of hand phasers was as great as some Trekkies claim.

I wish that they had shown more ground combat in DS9, TNG, and other series. Maybe it would have shown us more about how SF and the other races conduct such matters. In DS9, all they ever said was "An entire Cardassian order has been wiped out," or, "Fifteen Klingon battalions are landing on [insert planet name]." In any case, the combination of an anti-aircraft weapon and an RPG is interesting. If true, it would give SF a marginal advantage over modern forces in the amount of equipment that was necessary and the number of weapons a squad or platoon would have to carry.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-19 05:34pm

In a DS9 episode dont we see Klingons using Mortar fire to attack the federation (during the Klingon-Federation war) the episode where Jake is on a planet under going Klingon attack.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-19 05:59pm

TheDarkling wrote:In a DS9 episode dont we see Klingons using Mortar fire to attack the federation (during the Klingon-Federation war) the episode where Jake is on a planet under going Klingon attack.

True, but the Klingons are obviously using packets of flour to fire on Jake and Doctor Bashir, to express their utter contempt for puny, gutless Federation weasels.

Seriously, though, the mortars were so weak and, if one factors out hysterical panic on the part of Jake, utterly ineffective that the mortars are best forgotten. If they could not kill or injure people wearing battledress pajamas, they could hardly impress people wearing even modern body armor of vest, helmet and goggles, much less someone in an armored bodysuit.

The mortar James T. Kirk used to put fear into Gorn raiders, now, that weapon did a little something.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-19 06:05pm

Patrick Ogaard: Yes it is true that the klingon mortars were less than impressive, I also like you explanation of why.

arctic_series · Post by **arctic_series** » 2002-07-19 06:17pm

too bad a bunch of galactic traders can afford a better equiped ground force than the entire federation.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-07-19 07:09pm

In the new ST movie, it talks a little bit about something the Romulans did in the Domion War. On ground assults they used Remans as cannon fodder.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-07-19 07:37pm

I had always known that Klingons are smarter than the Federation. They at least have ground Assault Vehicles

I see, so if that disintegrator toy really is an anti-tank weapon, it just shows the poor plight of the Federation. I can just see them like Afghans, without the skill and technique, trying to knock out Klingon vehicles shooting at them

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-19 11:11pm

But can Klingon GAVs can compare to Imperial AT-ATs?

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-19 11:30pm

They don't need to. The vulnerability of AT-AT undersides is well documented and evident in ESB and the EU. All Luke had to do to take one down was make an effortless cut in the underside (it took him only a few seconds, obviously he didn't have to cut through heavy armor since it can take significantly more time for a lightsaber to cut or melt through heavy armor) and toss in a grenade.

An imperial officer training to pilot an AT AT in the EU came up with a lying down manuver to reduce the vulnerability to underside attacks from fast moving craft or snaring the legs but true to imperial efficiency he was ignored. Whether or not this weakness can be effectively exploited by a Trek force is debatable but this weakness exists and Star Trek forces are very good at discovering and exploiting weaknesses in times of need.

Ground combat in Star Trek has not been well documented, the fact that the Klingons use ground assault vehicles makes it very likely that other races have also deployed them, the Federation is especially likely to have as they and the Klingons, despite being allied, have been engaged in a technological game up of one upmanship for quite some time. The Klingons field Vor'chas, the Federation fields Nebulas and Galaxies. The Klingons field Negh'Vars the Federation fields Svoereigns. Just because no ground combat vehicles have been seen on Star Trek is no reason to assume they don't exist, we have never even seen a large scale ground battle. Infantry alone can't take a heavily fortified and likely shielded base.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-19 11:41pm

They don't need to. The vulnerability of AT-AT undersides is well documented and evident in ESB and the EU. All Luke had to do to take one down was make an effortless cut in the underside (it took him only a few seconds, obviously he didn't have to cut through heavy armor since it can take significantly more time for a lightsaber to cut or melt through heavy armor) and toss in a grenade.

An imperial officer training to pilot an AT AT in the EU came up with a lying down manuver to reduce the vulnerability to underside attacks from fast moving craft or snaring the legs but true to imperial efficiency he was ignored. Whether or not this weakness can be effectively exploited by a Trek force is debatable but this weakness exists and Star Trek forces are very good at discovering and exploiting weaknesses in times of need.

Ground combat in Star Trek has not been well documented, the fact that the Klingons use ground assault vehicles makes it very likely that other races have also deployed them, the Federation is especially likely to have as they and the Klingons, despite being allied, have been engaged in a technological game up of one upmanship for quite some time. The Klingons field Vor'chas, the Federation fields Nebulas and Galaxies. The Klingons field Negh'Vars the Federation fields Svoereigns. Just because no ground combat vehicles have been seen on Star Trek is no reason to assume they don't exist, we have never even seen a large scale ground battle. Infantry alone can't take a heavily fortified and likely shielded base.

Stormtrooper armor, yeah that provides a whole lot more protection than a starfleet uniform. They can't stop blaster shots, can't even provide any protection against being beaten to death by small angry primative natives. AND they make a wearer an easy target by restricting their movement, weighting them down by their so called protection, and their shiny white armor is the closest thing to anti-camoflouge than just about anything short of a giant wearable billboard with the words shoot me! in big bright letters. No stealth either, that armor is constantly rattling and creaking on screen. Starfleet officers' uniforms don't restrict movement and allow them to actually run and take cover easily when needed and the latest uniforms have very little in the way of bright color to reveal one's position easily and they don't make any great amount of noise when moving allowing for stealth. They don't protect against shrapnel but then again the stormtrooper who got knocked out or killed by an exploding blaster bolt behind him in ROTJ didn't seem to have been helped much by his armor. As far as onscreen evidence, there is no evidence that stormtrooper helmets have anything in the way of specialized visual equipment, only in the EU is the helmet turned into some sort of swiss army knife.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-19 11:42pm

Well, I feel I must speak out.

1) Unless the Voyager episode mentioned these vehicles, they don't exist in Canon.
2) Regardless of what 'should' be, no power has been seen to deploy ground vehicles before ST:X. Fucking deal.
3) Oh, yes, the 'undersides' threat. The famous Trekkie 'Put me in the perfect place and don't ask how I got there' tactic. How, then, will you get under the thousand ton walker which can pick things off at 18Km?
4) And to keep up my title's accuracy: Fuck you.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-20 12:42am

SirNitram wrote:Well, I feel I must speak out.

1) Unless the Voyager episode mentioned these vehicles, they don't exist in Canon.

It's got a reference you dumbass.

2) Regardless of what 'should' be, no power has been seen to deploy ground vehicles before ST:X. Fucking deal.

See 1.

3) Oh, yes, the 'undersides' threat. The famous Trekkie 'Put me in the perfect place and don't ask how I got there' tactic. How, then, will you get under the thousand ton walker which can pick things off at 18Km?

Luke did it easy.

4) And to keep up my title's accuracy: Fuck you.

I'll pass on that. Again you are a perfect example of what is wrong with quite a few people in sci-fi and this board in general.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-20 01:03am

Thank you for not actually rebutting the argument. Concession accepted.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-20 05:49am

Look inside the quote.

Anyway, it's becoming startling seeing some of the debate tactics used here.

1. SW/ST Debate

2. SW/ST Debate

3. SW/ST Debate

4. Fuck you

?

As to the AT-ATs-The Empire has obviously used them for quite some time, possibly up to 10 years. The Rebellion, if it is at all competent, has files on how to defeat Imperial weaponry, "shoot AT-ATs with Proton Torps on legs", "if no X-Wing available, tangle up an AT-AT's legs with string", "defeat TIEs by exploiting shield advantage", etc.

The Federation has no information on the AT ATs, and the only rebuttal you have provided is "the Feds have a way of finding out information in times of need". How? How are they going to get under the AT-AT? Using the rebuttal in your last post is "Luke did it easy".

Yes, Picard will fly the Federation Airspeeder and attempt to tangle the legs of the AT-ATs, then failing will pop out of the Airspeeder and unhook his Lightsaber and slash away at the inside on the rope he always carries in his pocket, throw in a grenade that Picard always uses, and then fall down with out any harm.

(Imagines Federation saboteurs plummeting to their death after cutting the rope.

)

Even if Picard uses the Federation Dune Buggy from the previws, he still has to get around the AT-STs, aiming straight at him.

Besides, there's no getting around the psychological disadvantage of gigantic walkers moving straight toward you. Even the Rebels were surprised on Hoth.

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-07-20 05:50am

Actually, now that I think of the "Perfect place, perfect time" syndrome, Fuck you does come to my head.....

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-07-20 06:24am

SCVN, have you calculated the penetrative ability of a lightsaber, or considered the fact that it was the underside? Do you realize a tank's underside is also relatively vulnerable?

Your next one is a faint, speculative hope. So is the one after that. It is not necessarily that they have tanks. Their thoughts may be different. Just because the Klingons still retained a modicum of Combined Arms does not mean the Federation has to have even that bit of intelligence. The Federation may have chosen to dedicate its efforts in space superiority, reasoning that if the enemy is intercepted before it can land its troops, maybe they can save themselves a ground battle.

Your last is a series of typical attacks against stormtrooper armor. I'll admit the white could be done better, and if the EU says it is a Swiss Army knife and the canon doesn't say it isn't, then it IS a Swiss Army knife. End of story.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2002-07-20 08:17am

SCVN 2812 -- do you happen to have the quote from the episode of Voyager itself, rather than the reference from the Encyclopedia? One suspects that SirNirtram's objection is that the Encyclopedia may be speculating the existence of the Klingon ground assault vehicle -- the Encyclopedia is, after all, a secondary source; some of it is canonical, some of it is not.

Publius

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 09:12am

I belive ST Cannon is if it does not Contradict the shows and its mentioned its ok

So talking about Ground Vechicals and the Esy mentions Kligion Ground Vehicals its ok by the laws of ST

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-20 10:09am

It is well established that stormtrooper armor does not provide full protection against direct blaster hits, and that gaps in coverage allow some shrapnel (and Ewok arrows) to get to the underlying bodyglove, and the bodyglove appears to function more as environmental insulation than armor. Therefore, the obvious question is: why do elite Imperial troops bother to wear their armor?

Answer:
For the same reason that modern soldiers in threat situations wear flak vests and kevlar helmets, plus full NBC gear in special threat situations: because it's a lot healthier than not wearing them, and regulations say you have to wear the stuff.

Let's take a look again at the issue of stormtrooper armor inadequacy:

Standard armor is white with contrasting black highlights, stylized angular musculature on the torso and an intimidating, impersonal visage. This indicates strongly that the standard armor is designed to shock and intimidate opponents. Also, the white armor is seen worn primarily in two situations: shipboard duty and planetside policing. Neither form of duty would derive advantage from a camouflage pattern. Actually, the standard pattern nearly serves as camouflage on civilian installations and ships, such as the Tantive IV and Cloud City, making the troopers blend in somewhat with the brightly lit, white or off-white backgrounds.

Standard armor does not appear to markedly impede a trooper's ability to run and jump, indicating that the armor is not particularly heavy and that weight is well distributed. Troopers had no trouble pacing a sprinting human and fuzzy sidekick in the corridors of the Death Star I, nor were they noticeably impeded in jumping and running through the undergrowth of Endor.

Armor does obviously reduce the trooper's ability to quickly hug the ground and present the smallest possible profile, but apparently this is balanced out by the relatively good protection offered by the armor. Why else would one of the troopers have been checking his fallen comrades just before Vader boarded the Tantive IV, if not with the expectation that some of the troops that took direct hits to the torso might have survived with injuries? A disabling wound in combat is not necessarily a mortal wound, especially if the severity of the injury is reduced by armor.

The environmental sealing of standard armor provides a further advantage in that the wearer is always prepared for a wide range of adverse environmental conditions without deterioration of performance. Troops can advance through theater shields and, by extension, similar shields that may be deployed as defensive measures on boarded vessels. Neurotoxins, bioweapons and other such hazards present no particular threat to troops in fully sealed armor, and the deployment of troops with such armor actually makes it feasible to liberally employ such weapons offensively. The failure to use such weapons in the boarding of Tantive IV appears based primarily on the need to not risk destroying the bearers of the data being sought.

Given the addition of a life support pack to the backplate of the torso armor, the standard armor becomes an effective, armored spacesuit. Canon evidence of this is provided by the two stormtroopers so equipped during the SW:ANH scene in which the Millenium Falcon is drawn into one of the smaller equatorial docking bays of the Death Star I. Two stormtroopers are standing out before and below the docking bays, near a pair of armored turbolaser turrets. Both are equipped with small, armored backpacks matching their armor, and the most logical conclusion is that they are standing in vacuum.

For troops reasonably expecting to deployed anywhere in the galaxy, in almost any environment, fully sealed stormtrooper armor is the ideal choice.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-07-20 10:13am

I see, so if that disintegrator toy really is an anti-tank weapon, it just shows the poor plight of the Federation. I can just see them like Afghans, without the skill and technique, trying to knock out Klingon vehicles shooting at them

That thing has less firepower then a 40mm grenade, which can't even harm an original M113. If its an anti tank weapon, the Federations enemies must use card board for armor, quite litterly.

The Afghans would be able to kill what ever it was ment to counter with a 12.7mm machine gun, possibuly 7.62

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-20 10:14am

Publius wrote:SCVN 2812 -- do you happen to have the quote from the episode of Voyager itself, rather than the reference from the Encyclopedia? One suspects that SirNirtram's objection is that the Encyclopedia may be speculating the existence of the Klingon ground assault vehicle -- the Encyclopedia is, after all, a secondary source; some of it is canonical, some of it is not.

Publius

The episode, whose title I have managed to forget, is the one in which the Voyager gets into a mating fight with a (presumably male) space whale over who gets to have sex with the little (presumably female) space whales. Torres comes up with the idea of setting up some manner of repulsion device that will allow Voyager to move through the herd without having to hurt the space whales. She says in dialogue that her idea is inspired by the targ scoops fitted on Klingon ground assault vehicles. (Why Klingons would bother, when running a GAV through targ herds would provide yummy minced raw targ is another question, of course.)