droid rights

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-01-09 02:11am

assuming we produce sentient ais some point in the future, how should they be treated?

my thought if it can act human, it should be treated as such - citizen's rights and priveleges.

not like a chat bot, mind you, but an ai from neuromancer or star wars.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2004-01-09 02:23am

Assuming we have sentient AIs they won't be stuck in worker bots that do factory work. They would eventually be placed in adminstrative roles, keeping data traffic running faster and running everything virtual. I'm sure quite a few of them would probably be made into some form of avatar, remote controlled robot of some kind, and that might lead to some interesting situations.
Perhaps a droid president.
I'll vote for president pepper pot. Will you?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2004-01-09 02:30am

The sentients will definitely be better at managment than most humans. But as for the law, give them the same rights as everyone else. I mean, it wouldn't be fair to treat them as sub-human just because they roll off an assembly line. It's an extension of my view of clones.

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-01-09 02:32am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:Assuming we have sentient AIs they won't be stuck in worker bots that do factory work. They would eventually be placed in adminstrative roles, keeping data traffic running faster and running everything virtual. I'm sure quite a few of them would probably be made into some form of avatar, remote controlled robot of some kind, and that might lead to some interesting situations.
Perhaps a droid president.
I'll vote for president pepper pot. Will you?

If it were to happen tomorrow, then they certainly wouldnt be treated as equals, lots of people would have the attitude that 'we created it, therefore we shouldnt have to take any crap from it', I dont think any human would vote in something they actually created into office, as that would admit that humanity isnt quite up to the job - maybe thats why terminator/matrix etc are such big hits, because it's not that implausible, and it's the kind of thing that humanity would probably end up doing. However, if it happened further down the line in more lenient times, maybe it would happen, but I doubt it.

There's a book called the Solitaire Mystery, I forget who it's by, but essentially it revolves around a pack of cards which take on human/personfied form, theres a whole plot that goes with it, but essentially, one of the lines is that the cards eventually kill their creator when they find out that he actually walks among them, as he is a perpetual reminder that they were created not by some supreme being, but by someone who is imperfect and can grant them no afterlife etc. It struck me as mildly relevant.

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2004-01-09 03:27am

Enforcer Talen wrote:assuming we produce sentient ais some point in the future, how should they be treated?

like a slave. Treat others robots with respect and treat yours as you will.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 03:33am

No matter how advanced computer AIs are not sentitent. Their actions are result of mathmatical instructions executed in electronic proceesing hardware. Computers are not self conciouss, they are unaware of their own existence. They are no more alive or sentinent than a rock.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2004-01-09 03:36am

We don't need to worry about their rights at all. If movies are correct, they'll kill us all first.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 03:41am

Nah killer terminators from the future will save us.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-01-09 04:17am

evilcat4000 wrote:No matter how advanced computer AIs are not sentitent. Their actions are result of mathmatical instructions executed in electronic proceesing hardware. Computers are not self conciouss, they are unaware of their own existence. They are no more alive or sentinent than a rock.

Your theory is unfalsifable and unjustifiable. Suppose I manage to use mechanics to replicate EVERY part of a human's Function (it can use food as a combustion power source and it can even hack out a baby using mixed designs from two robots.) Yet you will reject its equality because of its manufacturing material.

Your actions are the results of electrical and chemical impulses generated in wet masses of electronic processing hardware in which carbon rather than silicon is a dominant element. I don't see how that's any big improvement.

I judge by function and ability. If it can do everything a human is expected to do (or are superior in some aspects to compensate for weaker ones,) I'm all for granting them full and unconditional equality. No slaves.

I hate that "creation" argument for keeping droids as your own property. Your mother made you too. In fact, she suffered a lot more than the droid maker would probably do in your creation. But I think any mother that treats her "creation" any way she damned pleases or as a slave would be popular.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2004-01-09 07:37am

Taking the assumptions made in the OP as fact:

If a droid proves itself to be useful outside of its programming, then it can be granted certain rights. Free thought AIs will be second-class citizens in this case.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2004-01-09 08:25am

We should treat a sophisiticated AI as human.

Of course, given humanity's track record they'll be second class citizens and corporate slaves for a long, long time.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-09 11:04am

evilcat4000 wrote:No matter how advanced computer AIs are not sentitent. Their actions are result of mathmatical instructions executed in electronic proceesing hardware. Computers are not self conciouss, they are unaware of their own existence. They are no more alive or sentinent than a rock.

So you realise that silicon "life" is no different to carbon "life".

We're made of the same materials a lot of non-living things are, and as Kaz said, your theory holds no water. By your logic, humans are really no different. Why would we be when we're simply the sum of all these synaptic functions going on in our "brain"?

And that brings up another question. If we make life simulation software advanced enough, is it morally corrupt to harm it even if it's a perfect life simulation?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-09 11:19am

evilcat4000 wrote:No matter how advanced computer AIs are not sentitent. Their actions are result of mathmatical instructions executed in electronic proceesing hardware. Computers are not self conciouss, they are unaware of their own existence. They are no more alive or sentinent than a rock.

And the human brain is nothing more then a biological computer. We are not self aware either. It is merely an illussion.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-09 11:26am

Alyeska wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:No matter how advanced computer AIs are not sentitent. Their actions are result of mathmatical instructions executed in electronic proceesing hardware. Computers are not self conciouss, they are unaware of their own existence. They are no more alive or sentinent than a rock.
And the human brain is nothing more then a biological computer. We are not self aware either. It is merely an illussion.

Unless you are a Zombie you are aware of your existance. You feel you exist. It is not an illusion it is called conciousness. This is what sets humans apart from machines. Unlike machines we have a mind or soul that controls our physical body.

A computer does not feel it exists, it is not self aware. Every action it takes is result of binary code executed in its processor. This binary codes could be executed by pen and paper if necessary. Given enough time anyone can do the work of a supercomputer. So does this mean that a piece of pen and a paper is sentinent ?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-09 11:33am

evilcat4000 wrote:Unless you are a Zombie you are aware of your existance. You feel you exist. It is not an illusion it is called conciousness. This is what sets humans apart from machines. Unlike machines we have a mind or soul that controls our physical body.

A computer does not feel it exists, it is not self aware. Every action it takes is result of binary code executed in its processor. This binary codes could be executed by pen and paper if necessary. Given enough time anyone can do the work of a supercomputer. So does this mean that a piece of pen and a paper is sentinent ?

You still don't get it. There is no core difference between a biological computer (ours) and a mechanical computer. If you can recreate enough of the human brain functions within a mechanical enviroment, there is no real difference and thus it is aware.

You have yet to prove that a computer can't be self aware and you haven't even acknowledged the fact that computers can be either mechanical or organic.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2004-01-09 11:45am

The rules are the rules. Human, machine, who gives a shit? Everything is the same: We limit people's ability to harm others and the environment. We limit the environment's ability to harm us. Droids would follow the same rules as we do.

As for rights, it's inevitable. People get emotionally attached to their homes, their heirlooms, even their CARS, for god's sake. I figure it's a matter of time before rights-activists take up the cause of the sentient machine, PC life being what it is. The way has been paved by viewings of movies like AI, Bicentennial Man, Short Circuit, and even T2 for people to be sympathetic to the machine that knows how to love.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-01-09 11:56am

Unless you are a Zombie you are aware of your existance. You feel you exist. It is not an illusion it is called conciousness. This is what sets humans apart from machines. Unlike machines we have a mind or soul that controls our physical body.

Free will?

A virus can force you to do things you would never do otherwise, eg: people infected with rabies try to bite people just like animals do.
The human brain can malfunction and many things can manipulate it(drugs, diseases or injuries)

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-09 01:40pm

Pass a law that requires all robots to be hardwired with basic rules. Something like:

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

In any case, if the droid/robot/android were programmed to *want* to be a slave, you're not really violating its rights because that's what it wants to be.

I am reminded of the example in Voyager (egad!) where the sentient weapon just wanted to reach its target and destroy itself, even though the doctor pleaded that it could be much more.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-09 01:46pm

Zoink wrote:Pass a law that requires all robots to be hardwired with basic rules. Something like:

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

In any case, if the droid/robot/android were programmed to *want* to be a slave, you're not really violating its rights because that's what it wants to be.

I am reminded of the example in Voyager (egad!) where the sentient weapon just wanted to reach its target and destroy itself, even though the doctor pleaded that it could be much more.

I hope people see that as a case against sentient weapons and not a good example of AI design.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-01-09 03:27pm

Oh lord. 'A computer can't be self-aware since it's just mathematics'. By that logic, you can't be self aware, since you're just bioelectrical reactions.

Even if you happen to beleive in immortal souls, what prevents one from being born into a computer sophisticated enough to think?

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-09 03:50pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: I hope people see that as a case against sentient weapons and not a good example of AI design.

But I want to talk to my bullets before I shoot them

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-09 04:12pm

I don't see any point in building a sophisticated AI just to give it all the rights and privileges of a human being. You can argue that it has obligations to you as its creator that justify its subservicence, or you can just not build a sentient machine.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2004-01-09 04:17pm

Zoink wrote:Pass a law that requires all robots to be hardwired with basic rules. Something like:

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

In any case, if the droid/robot/android were programmed to *want* to be a slave, you're not really violating its rights because that's what it wants to be.

I am reminded of the example in Voyager (egad!) where the sentient weapon just wanted to reach its target and destroy itself, even though the doctor pleaded that it could be much more.

It's always been my opinion that such machines would end up being used as weapons of war and no one would ever bother using the Three Laws of Robotics.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2004-01-09 04:51pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:my thought if it can act human, it should be treated as such - citizen's rights and priveleges.

Would you support droids having voting rights?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-01-09 07:41pm

if we are speaking of star wars droids, yes.

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