The Federation - evil ?

[Cpt_Frank]

The United Federation of Planets is a system of governemnt which is said to work without money. Everyone is said to be happy and, though he already gets everything he needs to live from the government in the same quality as everyone else, works voluntarily towards the common good of humanity. Humans do that because they are said to have 'evolved'.

Now my question:
Do you think this is absolutely true?
Do you think that the federation really works that way?

Or do you think that humans did actually not suddenly change and that the federation uses either physical force or methods of mind-manipulation/indoctrination to make people work without payment and keep everything going?

Personally I find it highly doubtful that humans after tens of thousands of years suddenly changed completely and now will work voluntarily for an abstract idea.

[Needa]

Federation is probably good, atleast from his point of view. "We are only explorers, we don't want you any harm" Blabla

You are right, human can't change their behaviour (sp?) in a short time. Come on, greed isn't present? It can't be. We all want to have more things, it's in our nature, sadly. I pretty sure the Feds are using some subtile methods to keep their people loyal and productive. It seems that every citizen of the Federation like Starfleet or any other governmental agency. It's strange we never hear about citizens who do not like the UFP. If you saw an episode which talk about this, tell me. Anyway, in Insurrection Picard looked like some stupid pacifist (poor Ba'kus, whipping their planet to save billions) by not following orders. Starfleet and the Federation seems too perfect to be believed.

I'm pretty sure Trekkie will say: the Feds are good and free of their thoughts and action. But how can a normal man be as "perfect" as your average federation citizen?

[Cpt_Frank]

Hey, and somehow the federation citizens are unfree.
Are they allowed to pocess personal spacecraft (like in the Empire)?
Are they allowed to found an enterprise (like in the Empire)?
Certainly not, because this would disturb the total equality of all citizens.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Some of the more important people to the Federation were probably brainwashed. If you had the choice between saving billions of people, and listening to a "Prime Detective", what would you do?

[TheDarkling]

Someone has to be the lone voice of reason I suppose.

All evidence points to it worrks that way.

Evidence that points to indoctrination?.

[IDMR]

Someone has to be the lone voice of reason I suppose.

All evidence points to it worrks that way.

Evidence that points to indoctrination?.

Well, the Star Fleet characters appear quite convinced about their freedom from all human defects and elimination of social ills, yet some were plainly visible. The colony Yar was from, for instance. Unless Yar was actually from outside the federation, of course.

[TheDarkling]

That colony wasnt Federation however it may have started out as a federation colony before it went downhill.

They dont think they are perfect beings but they do think they have moved on since our time and from evidence on screen they seem to have.

[Mr Bean]

The epsodie(Wong said this mearnly restating) where they thaw out a bunch of 21st Century people and one of them ask Picard if he can check how his stock profoilo is doing

Picard has no clear what the guy is talking about
"Stock Market? What ever are you talking about?"
This upsets the guy natural and he starts asking Picard a bunch of questions about Capitalism and he has no idea what he's talking about

[TheDarkling]

Yes because they no longer use those systems however in another episode they refer to the Ferengi (May have been Sisko to Quark) as what they involved from and Quark say "thats why you dont like us we remind you of your greedy past".

SO they know what they were like but dont know specifics, remember Data refers to the Ferengi as "Yanky traders".

[David]

This is probably the best he's ever written, and I agree with it totally.



Abolition of property rights: 100% implemented in the TNG era Federation. While Ferengi traders and various others outside the Federation still retain property rights, the Federation seems to have eliminated them.
No wealth: Counsellor Troi and Captain Picard have both boasted about how the accumulation of wealth is no longer an incentive. What they don't explain is why. Humans have always been territorial (and so have our evolutionary ancestors), so our desire to accumulate more assets seems more like a basic facet of human nature than a temporary cultural phenomenon. It can be suppressed or modified through education and social conditioning, but such methods are hardly 100% effective. Some greedy people should remain, but not in Star Trek. So if humans in the future no longer desire wealth, then why not? Do they use extremely advanced brainwashing techniques, so sophisticated that no one can resist them? Or have they made the accumulation of wealth illegal, as Marx advocated? The latter seems more plausible.
No money: All external transactions are performed with a precious substance known as latinum. No more wire transfers or electronic asset tracking in the 24th century; vast interstellar trading organizations have reverted to something like the primitive "gold standard" that was abandoned long ago! It sounds like Troi wasn't kidding when she said the Federation no longer used money. They have "credits", but they don't seem to be as widely recognized as precious metals, which indicates that Federation credits are not easily converted into other assets (ie- not liquid). Poor or nonexistent liquidity is typical of communist currencies in real life. However, it is not typical of capitalist currencies, all of which can be easily transferred and exchanged between nations without the need for precious metals as an intermediate conversion.
Buy and Sell: What was the last time you heard about someone buying or selling something from another Federation citizen? People give one another objects, and they might even barter, but they never use their credits to buy things from one another (at least, nothing substantive such as a vehicle, a cottage, a boat, etc). Kirk talked about Scotty's "pay" and Scotty "bought a boat" in ST6, but of course, that was in the good old days of TOS. Ahhh, memories ... when men were men, women wore miniskirts, and nobody drank synthehol.
Spartan lifestyles: Even on the mixed civilian/military spaceport DS9, no one seems to have anything but a handful of room decorations and sentimental momentoes. Quarters are quite clean and barren even when children live there (and anyone with small children knows how silly that is). This could arguably be described as a lifestyle "choice" rather than the result of government edict, but it is also quite consistent with the growing list of evidence that the Federation is communist.
Goodbye, Wall Street: The concept of an investment portfolio is so alien to them that when a frozen 20th century tycoon was thawed out in "The Neutral Zone", Picard was completely dumbfounded at the man's desire to check on his portfolio. He couldn't even understand the concept, and complained that he couldn't understand what the man was talking about! Obviously, this is typical of a communist state, but hardly typical of a capitalist state. Even before modern stock markets and investment vehicles, the concept of investment still existed. Businesses started with the aid of financial backing, loans, etc. Banks and other financial institutions existed long before NASDAQ. But according to Star Trek, they didn't last into the 24th century.
State seizure of transportation (leading to reduction or elimination of freedom of movement): 100% implemented in the TNG era Federation. Vehicles in Star Trek are either government property, or they travel outside the Federation (eg. Ferengi vessels, ships from non-member systems, etc).
They're all company cars: What was the last time you saw a privately owned personal starship? Starships are either government warships, diplomatic vessels, or transports. The only one-person vehicles (apart from non-Federation vehicles such as Quark's ship or Bajor's spacecraft) are runabouts and shuttles, and they are always government property. Some might argue that starships must be very expensive or difficult to operate and therefore impractical for personal use, but Quark's ship disproved this idea.
Some claim that Kasidy Yates' ship was a private ship, but it was a transport rather than a personal vehicle, and it was probably part of the thriving black market that is endemic to communist states (how do you think everyone gets their illegal Romulan ale?). Remember that she paid the crew with latinum rather than Federation credits, and she was imprisoned in a "re-orientation centre" for using it to ferry supplies to the Maquis, even though the act in question occurred outside Federation territory and jurisdiction. Some might object that Sisko would have reported her if she was a black marketeer, but in real life, it was quite common for black marketeers to operate quite brazenly, often forming "wink, wink, nudge nudge" relationships with government officials. She wasn't prosecuted until she dared violate the Federation's policy of inhumane neglect toward the Maquis.
Empty skies: Where are all of the ships in the skies over Earth? Even over major metropolitan centres such as San Francisco, we see almost no air traffic whatsoever (certainly nothing like the thick swarms of traffic over Coruscant in Star Wars). In fact, in "Paradise Lost", the USS Lakota was the only starship in orbit around the entire planet! Even in that time of crisis, we didn't see anyone leaving Earth to hide out at a safer location until everything blew over, because none of them had any ships! The same is true of all crises through Star Trek history. No mass exodus of personal vehicles even when the populace had early warning and lots of time to prepare.
Big Brother is watching you: All movements are tracked in the Federation. Since no one has personal starships, everyone must book passage on state-owned transports in order to get where they want to go. You've heard it countless times: "I've booked passage to Mars," or "I'm going to try to book passage to the frontier". You never hear "I just bought a ship and I'm going to head off to the frontier" or "I'm renting a ship next month so I can go planet-jumping". The result of this monopoly is that Starfleet officers can easily track every movement of any citizen within the Federation. Any security officer can easily rattle off a list of all the places any citizen has gone, how long they were there, etc. Contrast this to real life, where the bus driver wants exact change but he couldn't care less about your ID. Unless you leave the country, nobody asks to see a passport or identification.
Little red corvette: We don't see a lot of red sports shuttles flying around, do we? This may not sound so bad, but think about it: what is one of the most cherished symbols of freedom, particularly in countries like Canada and America, with our wide-open spaces? Some think it's the Statue of Liberty, some say it's the Constitution, but as for me, I know what my favourite symbol of freedom is. Here's a hint: It's midnight blue, it has leather seats and a gas-guzzling V8 engine, and it sits in my driveway. Yup- my car. And it's not just me; for millions of people, the car is the ultimate symbol of personal freedom. Let me out on an open road, with a full tank of gas and Sammy Hagar's "I Can't Drive 55" on the radio, and I feel free. However, the effect only works if you actually like your car. An ugly or underperforming car just doesn't give you that same sense of enjoyment, and the lack of stylized or luxury-outfitted Federation spacecraft points to an absence of consumer choice.
Of course, some would claim that the desire for luxury and style is a cultural taste, and might have been eliminated in the "enlightened" Federation. That is a plausible argument on the surface, but in every society, there are those who stray from social norms. Furthermore, the Federation must experience "cultural contamination" from the activities of their Ferengi neighbours, so it can't be argued that the concept of style and luxury is completely unknown to them. It is therefore highly unlikely that we would never see people seeking style and luxury, unless they are prohibited from doing so by law.
Other would claim that style and luxury in transportation are a 20th century phenomenon, but that would be a historical fallacy. Stagecoaches were lavishly decorated before automobiles, and wealthy Romans decorated chariots and other forms of transportation. Even in primitive tribes, the elites of the village wear special decorations.
The open road: If you still don't agree that the car represents freedom, just close your eyes and think back to that very first day when you finally got to drive your parents' car on your own. Try to remember the exhilaration you felt as you pulled out of your parents' driveway for the very first time. Remember the exuberance when you were finally out on the open road? After all those years of waiting and anticipating, wasn't it great to finally be free? Just you and your car, with nobody to tell you where to go. Now that is freedom. That is an essential part of the fabled American Dream. Guess what- the Federation killed it. In the Federation, you don't have the futuristic equivalent of a car; you have a nice walk to the nearest loading stop, where you can take your assigned seat on the futuristic equivalent of a bus. Happy motoring.
State seizure of communications (leading to reduction or elimination of freedom of expression): 100% implemented in the TNG era Federation.
Ma Bell is back: The entire subspace relay system is owned by the Federation government, as described in the DS9 tech manual. There is no private competitor. Since all interstellar communications must use this relay network, this effectively gives the Federation government total control over long distance communications. Furthermore, it appears that local communications systems are government-operated as well, since the government was able to effortlessly impose a complete local news blackout during the attempted coup in "Paradise Lost." As another monopolistic Microsoftian measure, all communications start and end with the ubiquitous Federation logo, even on mixed civilian/military stations like DS9. Quark once ran afoul of this monopoly when he wanted to broadcast advertisements for his bar, and had no alternative but to break into DS9's communications system.
Phil Zimmerman would be pissed: High-ranking officers can use secure communications, but no one else seems to be able to encrypt their personal information or communications because any Tom, Dick or Ferengi seems to be able to break into personal files and communications at will. Furthermore, even "secure" communications use such weak encryption that they can be cracked in a matter of hours by a single starship's computer. It is important to remember that no matter how far computer technology increases, encryption strength can always be increased simply by adding bits, so this is not a case of technology overcoming encryption. In real life, the US government tried to force everyone to use weak encryption (or adopt Al Gore's infamous eavesdropper "clipper chip"), but they were foiled by the constitution. Apparently, there are no such restrictions on the Federation government's power.
This ... is not CNN: The Federation nearly became a military dictatorship once ("Paradise Lost"). In real life, such a near-coup would be accompanied by an enormous flood of negative news reports, both from television and radio stations and across the Internet. But in the Federation, there appear to be no independent news organizations or reporting mechanisms (or at least, none which can function when the government turns off the spigot). In other words, the meek citizens of Earth sat quietly in their homes and waited patiently for the benevolent Federation to tell them what had happened, because they had no other information source. This illustrates the danger of putting all communications facilities in the hands of the government; if they have control of all communications, then in the blink of an eye, they can eliminate public knowledge of their activities.
Elimination of religion and traditional families. 50% implemented in the TNG era Federation.
Nietszche Wins- God is Dead: While the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" began with a wedding in the ship's chapel, no TNG era ship seems to have a chapel at all. Christianity appears to have been purged from society. One of the most extreme examples of this deliberate suppression can be seen in a recent episode of Voyager, the holographic Doctor actually portrayed a Catholic priest and conducted a ceremony, but somehow avoided mentioning the names "God" or "Jesus" entirely! How someone can portray a priest and avoid mentioning God or Jesus is beyond me. Also, while "Bones" McCoy often mentioned Jesus and God, we never hear the name "Jesus" on TNG, DS9, or Voyager. This situation exists in stark contrast to every other civilization, such as the Bajorans, Klingons, Ferengi etc. which all have their own curious religions (always precisely one religion per species; I guess aliens aren't very imaginative in Star Trek).
New Age mysticism: Oddly enough, while Christianity has apparently been wiped out, popular New Age ideas such as transcendental meditation, seances, tribal superstitions, pseudoscientific quasi-religions and Eastern spirituality are all acceptable in the Federation. This would seem rather contradictory until you ask yourself what kinds of spirituality are popular today in Hollywood. Apparently they don't believe that God made Man in his own image, but they do believe that Hollywood should remake mankind in its image.
Wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am: Karl Marx's "free love" idea seems to have taken root. Pleasure planets like Risa, whose economies are based entirely on the sex trade, are stark proof that the Federation has decriminalized prostitution and encouraged a casual attitude toward sexual promiscuity (an attitude displayed by numerous characters on TNG, DS9, and Voyager). However, to be fair, the institution of marriage still exists in the Federation. As with all real-life communist states, the Federation probably found Marx's call for the total abolishment of marriage to be unworkable.
They don't play Pink Floyd in the future: Karl Marx advocated state-run education. Enlightened free-market societies also provide state-funded education for their citizens (the principal reason for the growth of the middle class), but not to the exclusion of alternatives such as private schools, learning centres, and home schooling. It would seem self-evident that private schools and learning centres are not permitted in the corporation-phobic Federation, but to be fair, there is no evidence that home schooling has been criminalized. In fact, it has been suggested that Jake Sisko must have been home-schooled before Keiko arrived as DS9's lone teacher, but his father was a single-parent and the station commander, so he hardly had time to moonlight as a schoolteacher! Jake must have been educated by computer with standardized programs and tests, so it's hard to tell either way.
State seizure of industry. 50-100% implemented in the TNG era Federation. The situation with the agriculture industry is unknown, since people seem to prefer real food to replicated food but the Federation lacks the infrastructure to efficiently deliver real food to all its ships and starbases. We would presumably see real food (and agriculture) planetside, but the show rarely strays from starships and space stations so we can't be sure. However, the situation with regards to manufacturing and research is much clearer.
No logos: In hundreds of televised episodes and numerous feature films, we haven't seen a single Federation product which bore the trademark of an independent manufacturer, either in military or civilian situations.
No corporations: There are no known privately owned corporations in the Federation. We never hear a single corporate name, or a complaint about a corporate supplier, or any news of bidding for government contracts. It goes without saying that no one has investments in any of these corporations. And finally, in the DS9 episode "Prodigal Daughter", we found out that Ezri Dax's parents formed a mining company, operating out of New Sydney. Lo and behold, we also found out that New Sydney is a city on a non-Federation world. What a shock. And would you be surprised to hear that their financial dealings were handled with precious substances instead of Federation credits? Gee, I wonder why they left the Federation and moved to New Sydney to set up their company ...
You can have any colour you want, so long as it's beige: In the Federation, all starships look the same, and feel the same. They have the same colour scheme. The same interface. The same mind-numbing monotonous style. The same basic design features. According to Star Trek, the future really does look like Microsoft. Of course, some of Star Trek's defenders claim that the unbelievable uniformity of Federation technology is not necessarily proof of monopoly, but these people probably don't think Microsoft is monopolistic either.
No patent office: There is no patent office. We know that none of the scientists in Star Trek perform research for the purpose of obtaining lucrative patents, because everything they discover instantly enters the public domain. There are no royalties to be collected. No fees for the use of someone else's invention. No one ever has to seek permission to use or abuse any form of intellectual property. There are no trademarks or copyrights. In short, intellectual property rights must have been completely eliminated, since the state claims ownership of all research.
Citizens are forced to work. Probably 100% implemented in the TNG era Federation.
Even though everyone is guaranteed a comfortable standard of living by the state, everyone works hard. There are no beach bums. Therefore, since laziness is an innate human characteristic, we can infer that such penalties probably exist, even if we never explicitly see them in action. An alternate explanation for this conundrum would be the possibility that citizens are conditioned to work through brainwashing techniques, but brainwashing would be no better than the use of force. Some have argued that it's "close-minded" to assume that laziness is innate rather than cultural, but nothing could be further from the truth. In nature, no animal does any work unless it's necessary for survival or reproduction (what's the last time you saw a bird building a nest for anyone but its own offspring?). In society, we are bombarded by constant propaganda pushing us to work to help strangers, but most people still don't do it in spite of all the pressure. Laziness isn't unnatural; it's one of the few natural things left in our society.

[Admiral Piett]

I think that the federation uses a mixture of mind conditioning techniques (indoctrination,propaganda,high tech mind conditioning techniques etc)
and the assignement of some luxury goods(for example if you are enough productive they give you a runabout for the weekend or more holodeck time) to motivate its people to work.Plus they probably try to make the jobs as less unpleasant as possible.And of course there are non monetary compensations:if you are enough productive you are a good citizen and if you are not considered enough productive you are either brainwashed or you are allowed to retain your flat and your food replicator but you are considered a bad person by the other people.
This is just an hypothesis on how such a society could work.

[TheDarkling]

Admiral Piett: Evidence for your claims please.
You are probably right on making the jobs as pleasant as possible and the fact society may look down upon those not working - but as far as I can see that would be the limit of pressuring going on.

[VF5SS]

If society looks down on you, then you say "fuck you society! I've got a nice replicator and holodeck which give me everything I want! I'm going to stay home and have some fun!"

[John Clark]

Abolition of property rights: 100% implemented in the TNG era Federation. While Ferengi traders and various others outside the Federation still retain property rights, the Federation seems to have eliminated them.

Specifics, man, specifics! Actually, "Measure of a Man" [TNG, Season 2] is a fairly good example of the argument that Federation citizens DO have property rights and civil liberty. When Data attempted to resign from Starfleet, he packed several personal items, which he assumed he had the right to keep. Since Data undoubtedly has stored in his head full knowledge of the UFP government and its laws, he would not have packed any personal property were it not permissible for him to do so.

Further, there is the main point of the episode: that Federation citizens, even artificially constructed ones, have all the same liberties Americans enjoy today.

On the issue of indoctrination, present evidence that even implicitly shows that anyone is brainwashed, rather than that they just really like their way of life. Saying that Starfleet officers have been indoctrinated just because they like their jobs is unfounded and absurd.

[IDMR]

That colony wasnt Federation however it may have started out as a federation colony before it went downhill.

<Snip>

I would hope not.

[TheDarkling]

David: Hmm I read most of that and yes most of the evidence is correct but im not sure about the conclusions.

There are greedy humans - they have left the Federation, people dont buy there own shuttles because its a waste since thats what public transport is for.
As for earh bound movement - transporters.

Siskos quarters get new stuff when he brings his items out of storage on earth and Picards quarters have lots of nic nacks.

Yates' ship belnged to another race (I think Bajourans) and she captained it from them.

Communications are monitored today and I bet the present day governments monitor us alot more.

They do have freedom of the press because Jake complains about not having it on Terok Nor.

Yes we have seen logos - Wine carries the Vineyard its from and most of everything else we see comes from the replicator.

[Needa]

The Darkling, I understand we have no such proof as Federation propaganda/mind control technique on his citizen. But, to me an organisation which isn't questionned must use some kind of trick to have that much loyalty and productivity from his members. Sure, they probably have interesting jobs and or benefits. Perhaps you have better understanding of the ST and the Federation that I do, but as the earlier post said they probably atleast cut some liberties to get along with their agenda of the perfect government.

It might have been a slowly process, but I think you got my idea.

[Mr Bean]

Sooo the CAPTIANS are the only one with Possiesis? Keep in mind we have seen more quaters than just theres


I don't find it very convicing that only the elite are allowed Nick-nacks

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: Siskos dad has tons or Nic nacks as does Picards family.

[David]

Even the Captains are subjugated.





They are not allow hair pieces.

[TheDarkling]

David: *cough*Kirk*cough* maybe they just arent vain enough to care.

[VF5SS]

To further develope my statement, "Oh yeah? If you don't work, we'll cut off your power!"

"Noooo! I'll work, I'll work!"

So a citizen has to work for the Federation in order to keep their happy drugs And people say there isn't any form of control, silly ducky...

[Mr Bean]

So the Father of an Elite gets nick-nacks too

Your really not convicing me here

How about some Common people bearing nicknacks hmmm?
Ever seen a Red-shirt with a nick-nack?

[David]

Red shirts don't live long enough to gather a collection of nick-nacks.

[FireNexus]

Harry Kim owns a flute(or is that a clarinet?).