Power of Trek weapons, exaggurated??

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2002-08-12 09:04am

Everyone is claiming that photon torpedoes explodes with 64 megaton of TNT. Well, it sure doesn't look like that in the First Contact movie when the Borg sphere tries to destroy a spacecraft which is in a house. All of the Borg torpedoes hit the ground near the house. If the firepower of those torpedoes had been 64 megatons, than that building sure would have to be strong to withstand a bomb several times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, you know, considering that the torpedo exploded ten meters from it and all...

Seriously, I think that the power of the Trek weapons are more exaggerated than the power of the Wars weapons.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2002-08-12 09:09am

All that that specific example proves is that a Borg sphere's torpedoes have a low yield. That does not directly prove Federation photon torpedoes to be weak.
For this to prove weak Fed torpedoes, you would need some means of comparing the firepower of the Borg torpedoes to the Federation ones.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-12 09:13am

Good point, in reality, ST weapons are probably in the kiloton range, there are many instances were we can find evidence.
Nonetheless we accept the generous 32/64 megaton numbers here to show that even with them SW could smash ST easily.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2002-08-12 09:18am

Dooey Jo wrote:Everyone is claiming that photon torpedoes explodes with 64 megaton of TNT. Well, it sure doesn't look like that in the First Contact movie when the Borg sphere tries to destroy a spacecraft which is in a house. All of the Borg torpedoes hit the ground near the house. If the firepower of those torpedoes had been 64 megatons, than that building sure would have to be strong to withstand a bomb several times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, you know, considering that the torpedo exploded ten meters from it and all...

Seriously, I think that the power of the Trek weapons are more exaggerated than the power of the Wars weapons.

Perhaps the Borg deliberatly used low yeaild weapons? God knows why, 64 megatons would have compleated the mission. Yet more evidence of Borg ineptitude

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-12 09:26am

The old low-yield argument doesn't work here, because they wanted to destroy the Phoenix and kill Zeph along with it. High yield would have been imperative.
And I don't think the Borg sphere's torps are that much weaker than standard Borg/Fed torps.
Either that, or they really used low yield, which would open up new levels of Borg stupidity.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-12 09:35am

That sphere could have merely been some type of queen-escape-pod. And the normal weapons may be stronger. For real evidence of borg ineptitude, see dark frontier. Voyage beams a photon torpedo aboard and the borg try to disarm it. Instead of simply beaming it into space, or back to vayager.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2002-08-12 09:39am

NecronLord wrote:That sphere could have merely been some type of queen-escape-pod. And the normal weapons may be stronger. For real evidence of borg ineptitude, see dark frontier. Voyage beams a photon torpedo aboard and the borg try to disarm it. Instead of simply beaming it into space, or back to vayager.

I blame B&B for the craptitude of a potentialy good enemy.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-12 09:45am

B&B totally ruined the Borg, indeed.
I was never a huge TNG fan, but when Picrad met the Borg first (I don't recall the Episode name anymore, but it was were Q teleports them to Borg space), they were cool villains. But as Darth Wong wrote on his Brain Bug page, now they're some kind of vampires.
Including the Queen's assimilation attempt with Data.
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2002-08-12 10:02am

Cpt_Frank wrote:B&B totally ruined the Borg, indeed.
I was never a huge TNG fan, but when Picrad met the Borg first (I don't recall the Episode name anymore, but it was were Q teleports them to Borg space), they were cool villains. But as Darth Wong wrote on his Brain Bug page, now they're some kind of vampires.
Including the Queen's assimilation attempt with Data.
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

I agree. The Borg could have been a excellent enemy for the federation, much better than the Dominion Imo.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-08-12 12:11pm

Everyone is claiming that photon torpedoes explodes with 64 megaton of TNT. Well, it sure doesn't look like that in the First Contact movie when the Borg sphere tries to destroy a spacecraft which is in a house. All of the Borg torpedoes hit the ground near the house. If the firepower of those torpedoes had been 64 megatons, than that building sure would have to be strong to withstand a bomb several times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, you know, considering that the torpedo exploded ten meters from it and all...

very true, Wayne poe's site has evidence claiming that a photon torpedo don't even mess-up many character's hair in certain scenes, really powerful LOL.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2002-08-12 12:53pm

The Borg Sphere had no reason not to fire at maximum yield. Like someone said before, they wanted do destoy that ship and kill the guy. Therefor, if thats the maximum yield, and ten or so of those torpedoes can destroy a federation ship, than the feds must have really weak shields and a really weak hull, if it cannot withstand explosion which isn't very much more stronger than a hand grenade...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-08-12 01:29pm

Or just go vaporize the Vulcan scoutship...
Or beam down one drone and have him rip Cochrane's head off.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2002-08-12 01:33pm

Hmm, perhaps the Borg isn't the that smart after all... But one 64 megaton torpedo should do it. But obviously it didn't.

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2002-08-12 01:49pm

The Borg sphere in that film seemed to me to be an escape pod rather than a warship. Nethertheless they were idiots in that film. As were the Feds for not using projectile weapons...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 04:46pm

What about that time in the movie when the torpedo hit the ground right next to Kirk and went off with less force than the Probe Droid did when landing in ESB (actually, it might have had a similar yield, but still, it would have been better just dropping a rock from high orbit on Kirk.)? Isn't that proof of a lower yield?

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-08-12 04:51pm

What about that time in the movie when the torpedo hit the ground right next to Kirk and went off with less force than the Probe Droid did when landing in ESB (actually, it might have had a similar yield, but still, it would have been better just dropping a rock from high orbit on Kirk.)? Isn't that proof of a lower yield?

I think wayne poe already covered that, he said it didn't even mess up kirk's hair, basicly having only the power of a rock after being armed.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 04:53pm

It barely had the power of a rock being dropped! In fact, it seemed that the torpedo was doing something to LESSEN the damage, even after it was armed!

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-08-12 05:56pm

starfury wrote:What about that time in the movie when the torpedo hit the ground right next to Kirk and went off with less force than the Probe Droid did when landing in ESB (actually, it might have had a similar yield, but still, it would have been better just dropping a rock from high orbit on Kirk.)? Isn't that proof of a lower yield?

I think wayne poe already covered that, he said it didn't even mess up kirk's hair, basicly having only the power of a rock after being armed.

It should be noted that is the only example of a photon torpedo with a color other then red or orange. This one was blue. It should also be noted that firing even a 1KT weapon at a target less then 50 meters away from the Captain of the ship is a BAD thing unless you are overly eager for promotion by death of senior officers.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-08-12 07:04pm

Does anyone remember what colour the photon torpedo fired at the asteroid in ST:TMP was?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2002-08-12 07:14pm

Dooey Jo wrote:Everyone is claiming that photon torpedoes explodes with 64 megaton of TNT. Well, it sure doesn't look like that in the First Contact movie when the Borg sphere tries to destroy a spacecraft which is in a house. All of the Borg torpedoes hit the ground near the house. If the firepower of those torpedoes had been 64 megatons, than that building sure would have to be strong to withstand a bomb several times more powerful than the Hiroshima bomb, you know, considering that the torpedo exploded ten meters from it and all...

Seriously, I think that the power of the Trek weapons are more exaggerated than the power of the Wars weapons.

The 64MT yield really is a generous version of the holdover from the TM days. The less generous version of it says to account for the inefficiency mentioned in the TM (74%) and comes out with 48MT, and the effective yield is more than halved because the weapon blast is omnidirectional.

There are several reasons why we still let it, even after we agreed that the TM is an unacceptable source:

1) Tradition - we've been using it so long that often we forget. I pretty much came in right at the time the TMs went out, so I don't have much of a problem with that.

2) Generosity. ST sucks too much. Sorry, I don't have much of generosity either.

3) Unwillingness to make a big issue. Many pro-Trek people still believe in the power of the TM. If we use a canon yield (just about all of the quantifiable ones seem lower than 64MT,) then they'll whip out the TM and the low power excuse. We'll first have to make a subfight so they'll realize (if they're smart) the TM doesn't count, and we're too lazy.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 07:49pm

Alyeska wrote:
starfury wrote:What about that time in the movie when the torpedo hit the ground right next to Kirk and went off with less force than the Probe Droid did when landing in ESB (actually, it might have had a similar yield, but still, it would have been better just dropping a rock from high orbit on Kirk.)? Isn't that proof of a lower yield?

I think wayne poe already covered that, he said it didn't even mess up kirk's hair, basicly having only the power of a rock after being armed.
It should be noted that is the only example of a photon torpedo with a color other then red or orange. This one was blue. It should also be noted that firing even a 1KT weapon at a target less then 50 meters away from the Captain of the ship is a BAD thing unless you are overly eager for promotion by death of senior officers.

I was the one who originally posted that. Incidentally, that does not overrule the higher yields seen in other episodes, but it must be taken into account when examining ST firepower (even if it is anomylous).

So why did they arm the torpedo before it hit the ground? Clearly it was carrying some kind of a charge (or they would not have armed it). You cannot state that "they shouldn't have fired it." They DID fire it. Whether it was a mistake to fire the weapon or not is debatable, but irrelevent. They clearly fired the torpedo, and it clearly did virtually no damage to anything.

Incidentally, that is certainly NOT the only example of torpedoes being blue. The torpedoes fired in Star Trek: First Contact, for example, were clearly blue. Alyeska is lying.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-12 07:52pm

Aleyska is right, on this small point. The blue torpedos in First Contact are Quantum Torpedos. Ongoing analysis may yet only prove them to be Photon Torpedos set to 'Blue'.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 07:59pm

SirNitram wrote:Aleyska is right, on this small point. The blue torpedos in First Contact are Quantum Torpedos. Ongoing analysis may yet only prove them to be Photon Torpedos set to 'Blue'.

Okay, so maybe the weapon fired in the movie was also an early quantum torpedo, or a prototype, or what have you. Perhaps quantum torpedoes have the yield of a kitten.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-12 08:17pm

What sort of yield would a torp need to be so that its explosion could be seen for space?

Basically until somebody with way too much time on their hands looks at every useful torp usage we caant find a proper figure.

As evidence of this take a look at SB at the moment shield estimates for the E-Nill are being put at about 3000 GT based of one incident yet here we get torps with the power of flares so how can these torps get past Fed shields?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 08:29pm

The simple answer, Darkling, is that the 3000GT shields were from an anomylous incident (or they are simply inflated, or both), and the torpedo with a yield that appears to be negative was also anomylous. Neither makes any sense. To base estimates off of one example is only reasonable if you are setting a maximum or minimum yield. A reasonable average would be a better way of determining yields, and I have no problem with a range from 50-100 MTs for a torpedo. That seems to be the most reasonable figure. If we can agree on that, then we can begin establishing shield and armor limitations for ST ships, and everyone will be happier.

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Power of Trek weapons, exaggurated??

Power of Trek weapons, exaggurated??

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