New EU constitution, good for Britain?

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New EU constitution, good for Britain?

Post by Darth Tanner »

BBC
Any analysis of the effects on EU foreign policy of the proposed new treaty has to pick its way through a morass of spin and exaggeration.

The treaty will allow some limited but quite important steps towards the encouragement of joint policies in foreign affairs and certainly towards the clearer presentation of those policies.

But the giant leap has not been taken. Foreign policy will still be subject to unanimity in all but a few limited areas. The upgraded "high representative" will have a greater ability to carry out policy, but will not make policy.

There is no intention of allowing in foreign affairs what happens, without complaint, in trade policy, where the EU has to act by law as one, decisions are taken by qualified majority vote and considerable freedom is given to the commissioner for trade.

So decisions such as the British one to join the invasion of Iraq will still be possible in future.

Yet to listen to the British government before the talks was to hear cries of alarm that British independence was threatened and afterwards that such a threat had been triumphantly averted. One wondered why the government had previously agreed to the proposals if they were now seen as such a threat.

On the other side, the anti-EU critics were also crying disaster, and in their case the cries are continuing.

The giant leap has not been taken. Foreign policy will still be subject to unanimity in all but a few limited areas

You can see the tactical process at work on the government side by looking at an e-mail sent out by the Foreign Office to correspondents on the Friday before the summit started last Thursday.

It said of foreign policy: "We will insist on maintaining our ability to conduct our own independent foreign and defence policy and we will of course maintain our Security Council seat."

The Prime Minister Tony Blair followed this up on the Monday by stating to MPs: "We will not agree to something that replaces the role of British foreign policy and our foreign minister."

The problem with these statements is that there was nothing in the proposed treaty that threatened the independent foreign policy of any member state.

The text said: "European decisions relating to the common foreign and security policy shall be adopted by the European Council and the Council unanimously, except in the cases referred to in Part III." These cases are limited in application, and the main one is discussed below. Defence and military affairs were specifically excluded from any majority voting.

As for an end to Britain's Security Council seat, there was and is no such proposal. The only thing that comes close is a provision that if the EU is agreed on a policy at the UN, then the refashioned high representative should present that case.

Ireland is set for a referendum... meat and drink to those arguing Britain should have one too

Read Mark's thoughts in full
The government's aim was plain. It had to come out of these negotiations able to rule out a referendum, which it knew might be lost.

So in some areas (home affairs, the charter of rights) it insisted on opt-outs.

What it did in the foreign policy field was, despite reports that it would veto this or that change, to allow the substance of the previously agreed section to go through but to insist on a declaration being added to make explicit what was already clear from the text - that the EU cannot override a member state over foreign policy.

This declaration says, in part: "...the provisions covering CFSP [common foreign and security policy]...will not affect the existing legal basis, responsibilities, and powers of each Member State in relation to the formulation and conduct of its foreign policy..."

Thus the government will be able to point to the text and say that it has preserved the British position.

The most significant change will be to combine the jobs of the existing high representative for foreign and security policy and the external affairs commissioner. This gives the new high representative (the title "foreign minister" was dropped due to British sensitivities) a seat on the European Commission and the foreign aid cash with which to put money where the policy is.

The representative will also chair meetings of the foreign ministers and control a potentially powerful new EU diplomatic service. So he or she (it will probably be a he, in that the present representative Javier Solana is likely to get the enhanced job when it is established in 2009) will have a bigger profile internationally.

There will also be a permanent President of the European Council, the body made up of heads of state and government. This post will also give the EU a larger presence on the world stage. Do not underestimate the influence of that.

Critics of the government are not immune to spin either. One of the most active groups is called Open Europe, a business-based think-tank that wants a "looser and more flexible structure" in the EU.

Its post-summit headlines declared that there would be "Majority voting in foreign policy". This is technically correct, in that in some circumstances there could be a vote by qualified majority, but it sounds as if foreign policy is generally subject to voting and simple majority voting at that.

However, in the main such case - voting on a proposal from the high representative - the representative will be allowed to make such a proposal only after a "specific request" from the European Council. And the Council has to act by unanimity, a point not mentioned by Open Europe, even in its detailed explanation.

Open Europe's Director Neil O'Brien told me that his headline should perhaps be amended to "Majority vote in some areas of foreign policy".

Newspapers calling for a referendum rarely pause to give the whole picture. The Sunday Times, for example, declares that it has found in the "small print" a plan for an EU diplomat service. This proposal was in the original constitutional treaty and in normal print.

The paper also announced that the new treaty commits Europe to a "common foreign and security policy". It does, but the commitment is lifted straight from the Maastricht Treaty agreed by Prime Minister John Major.

Successors to Henry Kissinger, who once complained there was no number in Europe for him to call, will still find all this confusing, though there are perhaps fewer numbers now than there were.
BBC
EU treaty 'in Britain's interest'

Mr Blair and other EU leaders agreed to the treaty last week
The treaty agreed by EU member states is "quintessentially" in Britain's interests, Tony Blair has said.
The prime minister told MPs the government had achieved a "leadership position" within Europe.

The treaty, expected to be finalised later this year, preserves much of the planned EU constitution, rejected by Dutch and French voters in 2005.

Conservative leader David Cameron said Mr Blair had "broken" a promise to hold a referendum.

He accused the prime minister of handing powers to the EU "without the permission of the British people".

'Completely protected'

The treaty gives an opt-out on a human and social rights charter and keeps an independent foreign policy and tax and benefit arrangements.

Mr Blair, in a statement to the Commons, said the UK's social security and benefits system was "completely protected".

Ireland is set for a referendum... meat and drink to those arguing Britain should have one too

The EU's powers to set "substantive" foreign policy would not be extended, he added.

"The new treaty will confirm for the first time explicitly that national security is the sole responsibility of nation states," Mr Blair said.

The treaty is planned to replace the failed EU constitution.

Mr Blair and his successor Gordon Brown insist a referendum is not required because Britain's "red lines" - control over human and social rights, foreign policy and tax and benefits - have not been crossed.

However, Irish foreign minister Dermot Ahern has said it is "likely" a public vote will be held there.

Mr Blair had pledged to hold a referendum on the constitution but the government says the changes included in the Reform Treaty are not significant enough to warrant one.

Amid noisy scenes, Mr Blair told MPs: "Over the past 10 years Britain has moved from the margins of European debate to the centre. This is absolutely right for Britain."

He added: "Britain has for a decade been in a leadership position in Europe. That is exactly where we should stay."

But Mr Cameron said Mr Blair had sanctioned the transfer of powers from Britain to Brussels "without the permission of the British people".

He added: "This will be remembered as one of the most flagrant breaches of any of the promises you have made."

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell said: "Listening to the prime minister today it was still unclear whether his principle aim in negotiating this treaty was the national interest or appeasement of the eurosceptic press.

"Having drawn up artificial 'red lines', he has flown home to trumpet a disingenuous victory in defending them."
I just watched Geoff Hoon on the Daily Politics show refusing point blank to admit that the treaty contains any measures of the constitution despite every other European leader admitting this, with the Irish saying 90% of the original treaty is present.

Also point blank refused to hold a referendum, giving the argument that the conservatives didn't hold referendums on the other treaties. What a wonderful argument.

If this continues it could Bring Brown down before he even gets in.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Yes, it's good for Britain, if you disagree please state your reasons. However, I'm really starting to be fed up. If you don't see how life is better within the EU, if you don't like the EU, get the fuck out, and double goes for the Poles. Good luck in doing business with the German-French-Iberian-Italian-Greek-and others Federation after that, though.

I really wish more people took their heads out of their holes and tried to live for a few years in another country of the EU, and delight at small things as how easy it is now to work, live and create ties in a city of the EU, and to be considered a full fledged citizen everywhere. And that the Euro was not, in fact, the end of the World, quite the contrary.
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Post by Darth Tanner »

Common Agricultural Policy.
Common fisheries policy.
The failure of the Euro.
More bureaucracy than you can shake a stick at.
Another layer of corrupt and expensive legislators.

But that aside I'm not against EU membership, but at the moment the EU is expanding its power and sovereignty over its subjects regardless of the will of the people. At the moment the British gov is openly trying to implement the new EU constitution directly against the will of the people by not holding a referendum because it knows it will lose it.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Darth Tanner wrote: Common fisheries policy.
The failure of the Euro.
More bureaucracy than you can shake a stick at.
Another layer of corrupt and expensive legislators.
Stop throwing shit at the wall to see if something sticks. If you have a particular argument against any of these issues, state it. If not, shut up. Failure of the Euro? *looks in the wallet, checks the Euro/dollar stats* Only in your warped mind.

Bureaucracy? What do you think the revised treaty is all about? Oh yes, it's a simplification of miriads of previous treaties, plus some more measures to increase flexibility.
But that aside I'm not against EU membership, but at the moment the EU is expanding its power and sovereignty over its subjects regardless of the will of the people.
How do you know? Do you have an EU-wide survey showing that? No, you're talking about the English people's will. Who again will be left behind still waiting for an Empire (don't worry, it will be coming again any time soon) when the other countries increase their ties.
At the moment the British gov is openly trying to implement the new EU constitution directly against the will of the people by not holding a referendum because it knows it will lose it.
Yes, lets get rid of the parliament. Direct democracy and all power to the ignorant democracy, that has always worked so well.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

I always have to laugh when I hear "common" people complaining about bureaucracy in the EU, when they have no clue. Plan a holidays tour across the EU, or apply to work or study in the EU. Now pretend you're back in time 20 years and repeat the exercise. Ask your parents or grandparents how "easy" it was for them to do the same things, and then bitch about bureaucracy.

And then, of course, any plan to make the political decision making process more streamlined is received with shouts of "OMG we lose INDEPENDENCE!!1!11"
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Post by Darth Tanner »

Colonel Olrik wrote:Stop throwing shit at the wall to see if something sticks. If you have a particular argument against any of these issues, state it. If not, shut up. Failure of the Euro? *looks in the wallet, checks the Euro/dollar stats* Only in your warped mind.
Common Fisheries policy - Under this policy fishing ships from other countries, especially Spain literally strip other nations waters. Britain is suffering heavily from this, not to mention the general fish stocks. Also treaties are signed with other countries, Morocco for example to strip their waters of fish in exchange for monetary payment.

Common Agricultural policy - The massive subsidy of agricultural companies, mostly the large mega corporations is a bad thing, it damages both the market and the consumer. Not to mention the damage it does to third world farmers who are kept in poverty to ensure western farmers a steady living.

Bureaucracy - The EU represents another layer of people employed to service the state, thousands of them. Additionally the EU creates thousands of laws to control every area of public life, why does a super national body have to do this again?
Yes, lets get rid of the parliament. Direct democracy and all power to the ignorant democracy, that has always worked so well.
So the EU and British gov should force its people into further integration against the public's will?
it's a simplification of miriads of previous treaties, plus some more measures to increase flexibility.
It contains much of the defeated constitution, according to the Irish 90% of it, including a EU president. If your happy to give up your country that's nice, the British people are not and the state shouldn't force the issue.

The rewriting of the constitution into a treaty so that it can avoid public scrutiny is not only dishonest but down right corrupt.
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Post by Darth Tanner »

Colonel Olrik wrote:I always have to laugh when I hear "common" people complaining about bureaucracy in the EU, when they have no clue. Plan a holidays tour across the EU, or apply to work or study in the EU. Now pretend you're back in time 20 years and repeat the exercise. Ask your parents or grandparents how "easy" it was for them to do the same things, and then bitch about bureaucracy.
So to have open boarders you must also have a EU president and a CAP,CFP and all the other trappings of a super state? Nice either or scenario.
And then, of course, any plan to make the political decision making process more streamlined is received with shouts of "OMG we lose INDEPENDENCE!!1!11"
Again your dishonesty. The new treaty contains much of the constitution that would have required a referendum, simply relabeling it because the people rejected it is rather corrupt don't you think.
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Post by Starglider »

Colonel Olrik wrote:Good luck in doing business with the German-French-Iberian-Italian-Greek-and others Federation after that, though.
In case you weren't paying attention, it was the French who derailed the last constitution attempt, despite having a former French president in charge of drafting the thing and generally pandering pathetically to French sensibilities. Get back to me when you've shut up that sinkhole of selfish whiners, then maybe you can talk about the UK dragging our feet.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Darth Tanner wrote: Common Fisheries policy - Under this policy fishing ships from other countries, especially Spain literally strip other nations waters. Britain is suffering heavily from this, not to mention the general fish stocks. Also treaties are signed with other countries, Morocco for example to strip their waters of fish in exchange for monetary payment.
Read the fucking common fishing policy and not what some people say about it. Nowere it says that a country is allowed to loot fish into extinction, on the contrary it puts great emphasis in conservation. I agree that it can be better, but it's not as bad as the British press portraits it. Portugal is, as you should agree, one country that has a lot of interest in that area. Since 2004, due to Article 9 of the Treaty, the entry of spanish boats in our waters is limited to a certain annual number, and we have the fucking navy and airforce in charge of making sure the treaty is obeyed.
Common Agricultural policy - The massive subsidy of agricultural companies, mostly the large mega corporations is a bad thing, it damages both the market and the consumer. Not to mention the damage it does to third world farmers who are kept in poverty to ensure western farmers a steady living.
We do what the US does and ensure our agriculture survives, and third world farmers are, have always been, and will always be fucked anyway. A nation that can't feed itself is in deep trouble.
Bureaucracy - The EU represents another layer of people employed to service the state, thousands of them. Additionally the EU creates thousands of laws to control every area of public life, why does a super national body have to do this again?
So? Are you just discovering that everything we do or consume is ruled? Is it bad that the decision is based to the entire EU? How so?
So the EU and British gov should force its people into further integration against the public's will?
No, my opinion right now is that England should fuck off, and that it will be left behind again, just like it happened with Schengen and the Euro.

It contains much of the defeated constitution, according to the Irish 90% of it, including a EU president. If your happy to give up your country that's nice, the British people are not and the state shouldn't force the issue.
That's because the "defeated" constitution was about only a refreshment of past treaties, you moron. Embelished with some constitutional symbology that put the British press soiling its panties.

Giving up my country? Please. Portugal is home and will always be its own identity (for how many centuries have the English been trying to beat down Scotland, precisely?), but it's amazing to live in the EU and have it feel like home.
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Post by Darth Tanner »

EU linky
Too many fish stocks are depleted. For example, cod in the North Sea and in Western waters are in such a poor state that emergency measures are required to help to rebuild them. This is also the case for Northern hake. A number of stocks in the Mediterranean are also overexploited. It is a sobering thought that, in the early 1970s, average stock levels of demersal species were nearly twice as high as at the end of the 1990s. This is bad for fish stocks and for the fishing industry because when fish stocks diminish so do fishermen's income and jobs.
Even the EU admits its common fisheries policy is damaging fish stocks.

Can I just ask out of interest what country you are in Olrik?
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Darth Tanner wrote: So to have open boarders you must also have a EU president and a CAP,CFP and all the other trappings of a super state? Nice either or scenario.
You're the one talking about EU bureaucracy. The Schengen space (of which Britain partially opted out, of course) is an example of reduction of that bureaucracy. And I'd say that having an EU president elected by the representatives of each country is a step down over the bucracy involved of changing the presidency to a new country every six months, don't you?
Again your dishonesty. The new treaty contains much of the constitution that would have required a referendum, simply relabeling it because the people rejected it is rather corrupt don't you think.
Not to me, since both Portugal and Germany did not in fact reject it. If you have a problem, complain to Blair (and fuck off).
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Post by K. A. Pital »

"Failure of the Euro"? :roll: Next time when you want to say something like that off the wall, think twice. Or thrice.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Starglider wrote: In case you weren't paying attention, it was the French who derailed the last constitution attempt, despite having a former French president in charge of drafting the thing and generally pandering pathetically to French sensibilities. Get back to me when you've shut up that sinkhole of selfish whiners, then maybe you can talk about the UK dragging our feet.
That was more of an internal protest vote than anything else and it won't hold. The French are much more pro-EU than the English, or do you deny this?

Edit: by the way, Tanner, the Schengen space is much more than just "open borders".
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Post by Darth Tanner »

We do what the US does and ensure our agriculture survives, and third world farmers are, have always been, and will always be fucked anyway. A nation that can't feed itself is in deep trouble.
Ah, so we're no worse than the US, thats alright then. Britain hasn't been able to feed itself for over 600 years, we seem to have done alright with that.
So? Are you just discovering that everything we do or consume is ruled? Is it bad that the decision is based to the entire EU? How so?
Yes everything we do is governed by people in offices, why do we have to add an additional level of offices in Brussels? If the EU wants to become a federal super state to rival the US does it need to assume all off its member states powers or can it actually just leave the states to do it themselves. The US fought a civil war over the issue of federal/state balance.
No, my opinion right now is that England should fuck off, and that it will be left behind again, just like it happened with Schengen and the Euro.
Now thats the EU spirit. The fact that the British economy has out performed the euro zone is irrelevant then.
That's because the "defeated" constitution was about only a refreshment of past treaties, you moron. Embelished with some constitutional symbology that put the British press soiling its panties.
Are you implying that the constitution was not defeated some how? Does the fact that the constituiton was made up of a bunch of treaties make the publics disaproval of it irrelevant some how?
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Post by Darth Tanner »

Colonel Olrik wrote: That was more of an internal protest vote than anything else and it won't hold. The French are much more pro-EU than the English, or do you deny this?
Yes because the French gov is subservient to its farmers and France gets massive amounts of other peoples money to subsidise their small family farms.

You are correct however in that France voted no to some extent because they didnt want Turkey in the EU. They still voted no though. And will they even be given the opportunity to vote on the new consitution?
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Post by Starglider »

Colonel Olrik wrote:The French are much more pro-EU than the English, or do you deny this?
The French are pro-EU as long as it means massive subsidies flowing into their country and a method to assert French primacy (which the Germans until recently let them get away with out of guilt) over the rest of Europe, ideally by transforming the entire rest of the EU into a French-style union-led nanny-state socialist hellhole. The French started getting a lot less keen on Europe after enlargement, when it finally looked their hideous CAP subsidy would be cut and things would generally stop revolving around them.

The UK is unlikely to shoot down a constitution, tabloid nonsense aside. Certainly all the intelligent people I know here (that I've asked) agree it's a sensible replacement for the current treaty mess. The Euro is a much more complicated issue, largely because the UK economy has major and lingering structural differences from the French and German economies. Getting sentimental about monetary union is pointless though, it isn't a critical blocker for any other treaties.

Oh and fuck off with your 'I deny the existence of Britain, it's all England I say'.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Darth Tanner wrote: Ah, so we're no worse than the US, thats alright then. Britain hasn't been able to feed itself for over 600 years, we seem to have done alright with that.
Oh, that's right. You just have to conquer half of the World again to ensure that the spic.. I mean food must flow. Brilliant! Although I remember reading something about "the great Irish famine". Must have dreamt it.
Yes everything we do is governed by people in offices, why do we have to add an additional level of offices in Brussels? If the EU wants to become a federal super state to rival the US does it need to assume all off its member states powers or can it actually just leave the states to do it themselves. The US fought a civil war over the issue of federal/state balance.
I thought it had been between the North and a bunch of slavery apologists? Again, what is inherently bad about having the desision of what is safe to consume, for example, made on the EU level and not having the testing involved repeated 30 times? Is that not yet another example of bureaucracy reduction?
Now thats the EU spirit. The fact that the British economy has out performed the euro zone is irrelevant then.
If you equate that with the Euro being a failure, then yes you're delusional, since as you perfectly know the Euro zone is not a homogenic block.
Are you implying that the constitution was not defeated some how? Does the fact that the constituiton was made up of a bunch of treaties make the publics disaproval of it irrelevant some how?
Exactly, since, guess what, the treaties already exist, and that has been so for a long time. You know, Treaty of Rome, Treaty of Schengen, Treaty of Nice, Treaty of Amsterdam, the SEA, the fucking Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community. The bases of this "EU" thing.
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Darth Tanner wrote:If the EU wants to become a federal super state to rival the US does it need to assume all off its member states powers or can it actually just leave the states to do it themselves. The US fought a civil war over the issue of federal/state balance.
Oh, bullshit. The root cause of the war was slavery; "federal/state balance" was just a talking-point veneer. Saying the civil war was about states' rights and not slavery is like saying the Iraq war was about WMDs and not Bush's legacy.
No, my opinion right now is that England should fuck off, and that it will be left behind again, just like it happened with Schengen and the Euro.
Now thats the EU spirit. The fact that the British economy has out performed the euro zone is irrelevant then.
Yeah, and when peak oil hits, where's your food going to come from then?
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Starglider wrote: The French are pro-EU as long as it means massive subsidies flowing into their country and a method to assert French primacy (which the Germans until recently let them get away with out of guilt) over the rest of Europe, ideally by transforming the entire rest of the EU into a French-style union-led nanny-state socialist hellhole. The French started getting a lot less keen on Europe after enlargement, when it finally looked their hideous CAP subsidy would be cut and things would generally stop revolving around them.
That's your personal opinion about the French. The polls I've seen consistently show more approval of the EU in France than in Britain, and that's a better if not perfect quantifier (I don't really follow French politics). I'd say that for all what you think of them France it's still a pretty happy place and they've made many good decisions in the past and present that will make the EU (including Britain) their bitch when the predictable energy crisis hits us.
Oh and fuck off with your 'I deny the existence of Britain, it's all England I say'.
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Post by Darth Tanner »

since both Portugal and Germany did not in fact reject it
And neither did you vote on it. Your parliament made the decision for you.
Oh, that's right. You just have to conquer half of the World again to ensure that the spic.. I mean food must flow. Brilliant! Although I remember reading something about "the great Irish famine". Must have dreamt it.
Ah yes, now we are on to protectionist agriculture or world domination. Very nice, its obviously impossible to 'trade' with the third world.

The Irish famine was a political failure, Britain had the food to feed the Irish at the time, as shown by the success of the soup kitchens set up for the early period of the famine. The free market politicians simply didnt want to give it to them.
what is inherently bad about having the desision of what is safe to consume, for example, made on the EU level and not having the testing involved repeated 30 times? Is that not yet another example of bureaucracy reduction?
Because that is hardly the totality of what the EU does, it has increasing responsibilty for large amounts of life.

Yes, with both Germany and Italy having elements that are wanting to leave due to the restraints on their economy the set interest rate is causing.
Exactly, since, guess what, the treaties already exist, and that has been so for a long time. You know, Treaty of Rome, Treaty of Schengen, Treaty of Nice, Treaty of Amsterdam, the SEA, the fucking Treaty establishing the European Coal and Steel Community. The bases of this "EU" thing.
I know you don't really care about public support but at what point do the people get a say about an alliance of steel industry becoming a super state? Never at all it seems if you get your way.
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Post by Surlethe »

A thought: if the American states were better off in a strong federal government than they would have been individually, why shouldn't that hold true for the different EU nations now?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
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Colonel Olrik
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Surlethe wrote:A thought: if the American states were better off in a strong federal government than they would have been individually, why shouldn't that hold true for the different EU nations now?
It already holds true. You can see Putin's mask of civility drop everytime the EU pulls its act together in talking with him, instead of having each country go to him and beg for more energy.
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Darth Tanner
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Post by Darth Tanner »

Surlethe wrote:Oh, bullshit. The root cause of the war was slavery; "federal/state balance" was just a talking-point veneer. Saying the civil war was about states' rights and not slavery is like saying the Iraq war was about WMDs and not Bush's legacy.
Slavery was the N/S divide, the North wanted the federal gov to restrict slavery while the south wanted to preserve the right of the state to conduct slavery regardless of the federal will.
A thought: if the American states were better off in a strong federal government than they would have been individually, why shouldn't that hold true for the different EU nations now?
Because the US constitution is actually rather well written, in stark contrast to the EU constitution, which can't even be bold enough to call itself a constitution out of fear of losing a public vote.
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Colonel Olrik
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Darth Tanner wrote: And neither did you vote on it. Your parliament made the decision for you.
Poll results are and were strongly in favour. In fact, both the Portuguese government and the major opposition party said that they'd put it to vote if the Constitutional Court approved (the Constitution puts a limit on what kind of issues can be referended, and for good reason). Both parties campaign in favor of it. I suspect opinions in Germany are similar.

Ah yes, now we are on to protectionist agriculture or world domination. Very nice, its obviously impossible to 'trade' with the third world.
Yes, it is. Because it would eliminate our agriculture in the process. While we can survive without ipods or even shoes made in China, we cannot survive without food. Which can quickly become unavailable for several reasons if we depend of imports.
I know you don't really care about public support but at what point do the people get a say about an alliance of steel industry becoming a super state? Never at all it seems if you get your way.
If you don't like the idea, vote for the idiots of the party which wants out. As simple as that. The wonders of indirect democracy.
Last edited by Colonel Olrik on 2007-06-26 09:29am, edited 1 time in total.
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Surlethe
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Post by Surlethe »

Darth Tanner wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Oh, bullshit. The root cause of the war was slavery; "federal/state balance" was just a talking-point veneer. Saying the civil war was about states' rights and not slavery is like saying the Iraq war was about WMDs and not Bush's legacy.
Slavery was the N/S divide, the North wanted the federal gov to restrict slavery while the south wanted to preserve the right of the state to conduct slavery regardless of the federal will.
In other words, the war was fought over slavery, not states' rights in and of themselves.
A thought: if the American states were better off in a strong federal government than they would have been individually, why shouldn't that hold true for the different EU nations now?
Because the US constitution is actually rather well written, in stark contrast to the EU constitution, which can't even be bold enough to call itself a constitution out of fear of losing a public vote.
That's not an answer to my question. How about if I posit a well-written federalist EU constitution? What do you say then?
Last edited by Surlethe on 2007-06-26 09:36am, edited 1 time in total.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
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