The Federation - evil ?

[NecronLord]

BenRG: A starship doesnt equate to a car it equates to a boat or prehaps a plane - how many people have these devices?

Well i live in a port and i can go down and buy a boat, right from small two man speedboats(shuttles) through to Largish Yachts(small spacecraft)[though i couldn't afford one, but i could probably steal one]

and as for someone mentioning the Hansens ship, it was a federation reserch vessel they sort of stole it was called the USS Raven, note the USS, I think it had a NCC number too

[Ai Phling Pu]

And again: You said people will work for the Federation voluntarily.
I ask you: Has there in history ever been a state in and for which the people worked completely out of free will, without getting back anything in exchange? It's almost a philosophic issue, but humans don't work that way. They never did, and never will!


And where are you getting the idea that they're not getting anything out of it? They have personal property. More than likely, everything is done on credit. If you recall from TOS "The Trouble With Tribbles" Uhura bought a couple of the little monstrosities using Federation "credits".

This whole "no money" thing actually got started with Kirk in ST4:The Voyage Home when he was having dinner with Gillian Taylor. They got the bill and he said he didn't have any money. More than likely, he just meant that he didn't have any cash.

This really strikes me more as another "brain bug" than anything. Roddenberry envisioned an economy based entirely on credit, with no paper money -- and now, without anything to indicate that that's changed, we have people yelling that the Feds don't use money of any kind?

[Admiral Piett]

Exactly mr Darkling.We are at least partially conditioned by our education.
In the federation case their education tries probably to suppress laziness greediness etc.
But the point is that that in reality this would not be enough.In the show instead it is apparently more than sufficient.
So to explain the inconsistency I have suggested an array of means,ranging from social pressure to more technological techniques, which might do the job and whose use there is no proof about,albeit we cannot exclude them.
Personally I think that a society like the federation cannot really work and the we have simply to renounce to the "brain frying chair" explanation and to supend the disbelief.
Is it a bad society?Well I do not like cars and I like federation logo,so probably I would enjoy it more than a today society,although I would not use a transporter.

[BenRG]

Ah I just remembered Seven of Nines parents had their own ship and used it for exploring - maybe you have to show them you intend to use the ship for something other than joy rides

Or maybe it was just their ship. Everyone is so intent on proving the Federation is some kind of totalitarian society that they've put the conclusion ahead of all the relevant evidence.

If you look closely at the Raven, you will see that she has the same colour scheme as a Federation Starfleet starship. She even has a UFP millitary registration. She wasn't a private vessel, but a government survey ship placed at the Hansen's disposal for their anthropological survey of the Beta Quadrent.

She wasn't a 'USS', but neither are the interstellar-range shuttles or the runabouts, which means there are some differences in terminology depending on the size and purpose of starships within starfleet.

I don't think that the Federation is 'totalitarian' in the literal sense of the word. There are no apparent formal restrictions on personal actions so long as you don't move into the criminal realms. However it is 'utopian', with everyone being told from birth that it is the best of all possible worlds and that they should be completely happy. Because of that, the social, commercial and technological infrastructure to better onself, as an individual (for your own personal gain rather than that of the species/society as a whole) just simply does not exist. It isn't considered normal behaviour to run off in a private starship, for instance, when you can join Starfleet, or to become an interstellar trader when items that cannot be replicated are transported by millitary cargo ships from system to system.

The problem is that the people of the Federation are not free to be unhappy with their lot and try something completely new. Their society tries to be all things to all people, in the process strangling a little of the individuality people. All true individualists (like Dr. McCoy, Ben Sisko's father and even, to a certain extent, Captain Picard) are considered eccentric at best, insane at worst. So, nothing has changed there. Non-conformist societies like Chakotay's tribe, become outcasts because they don't fit in any pre-manufactured slot in Federation society.

[NecronLord]

well find, not steal

[Ai Phling Pu]

When it comes to suspension of disbelief, we should be more inclined to suspend disbelief regarding the "utopia" of the show. After all, I could say that the entirety of the on-screen events of the Star Wars films was a holodeck novel written by Tom Paris. There's no way to prove, on-screen, that it isn't, so we can invoke "suspension of disbelief" to say that it is.

But saying such a thing actually violates suspension of disbelief.

Maybe that didn't make as much sense as I hoped.

According to the show, the Federation government works. No one appears to have been manipulated, conditioned or mistreated to believe that they live in a good society when they do not. They live the way they do because they choose to and because they like it.

Suspension of disbelief requires that we accept that.

[TheDarkling]

Admiral Piett: Yes I would prefer the Federation any day of this week.

We just have to take a combo of Social evolution, cultural conditioning and social pressure.

No big screens saying "THE STATE IS GOD", "OBEY", "WORK" "GREED IS THE ENEMY". ect just bringing up kids correctly without forcing greed upon them.

If you need a ship in trek im sure you get one however just to get around people dont need one.

[Cpt_Frank]

And again: You said people will work for the Federation voluntarily.
I ask you: Has there in history ever been a state in and for which the people worked completely out of free will, without getting back anything in exchange? It's almost a philosophic issue, but humans don't work that way. They never did, and never will!


And where are you getting the idea that they're not getting anything out of it? They have personal property. More than likely, everything is done on credit. If you recall from TOS "The Trouble With Tribbles" Uhura bought a couple of the little monstrosities using Federation "credits".

This whole "no money" thing actually got started with Kirk in ST4:The Voyage Home when he was having dinner with Gillian Taylor. They got the bill and he said he didn't have any money. More than likely, he just meant that he didn't have any cash.

This really strikes me more as another "brain bug" than anything. Roddenberry envisioned an economy based entirely on credit, with no paper money -- and now, without anything to indicate that that's changed, we have people yelling that the Feds don't use money of any kind?

Damn shit, you don't realise we're talkin' about the next generation here, do you? In the TOS era this was obviously another issue since there were privately owned spacecraft, free companys and some kind of money.
Picard repeatedly said that in the Federation, there was no such thing as money anymore. He wasn't talking about cash, but money in general!
I'm gonna find the quote.

[TheDarkling]

BenRG: What do you mean better ones self? seems to me hte Federation encourages that not prevents it.

Cpt_Frank: He said the economics of the future are somewhat different - implying that there may still be economics.

[NecronLord]

In Dark frontier Sevens father says
"USS Raven, Feildnotes" (Here we are chasing the corg with our six year old)

[Ai Phling Pu]

The problem is that the people of the Federation are not free to be unhappy with their lot and try something completely new.

They're not? Can you provide evidence of this?
All true individualists (like Dr. McCoy, Ben Sisko's father and even, to a certain extent, Captain Picard) are considered eccentric at best, insane at worst.
By who? Two of those individuals are decorated heroes, and I don't see how the third could run a popular restaurant if anyone thought him eccentric or insane, do you?
Non-conformist societies like Chakotay's tribe, become outcasts because they don't fit in any pre-manufactured slot in Federation society.


Chakotay's society was "non-conformist" in the same way the Irish Republican Army is "non-conformist". Try again.

[Cpt_Frank]

Here's a good one on the Federation's nonexistent payment/money system:

RALPH (freshly awakened from centuries of cryofreeze): I demand to know the cost of anything you do before the procedure is approved.
BEVERLY: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Another good one:

RALPH: And then what will happen to us? There's no trace of my money -- my office is gone -- what will I do? How will I live?
PICARD: This is the twenty-fourth century. Those material needs no longer exist

Doesn't exaclty sound like money of any kind or personal pocessions are that common in the Federation.

[TheDarkling]

Doctors in the UK are free nothing strange there.

He probably means that without his money he will still be able to live and not starve or be homeless - material needs.

[Cpt_Frank]

It's not like Crusher said: "Docs are for free nowadays."
But she said: "I have no idea what you're talking about."
That implies, she doesn't get the concept of what Ralph said: working-getting paid for it!

[VF5SS]

Something obviosuly happened between TOS and TNG since the general attitude in TOS was just like it is now. I'm not denying that it happened in Trek, I'm just trying to figure out why. To me it looks like something happened, like some dependence on replicators and holodecks for food and pleasure. This can be used a form of control over the populace. Think about it, most of this "better ourselves and the galaxy" comes from some would be diplomat trying to get people to join the Federation.

[TheDarkling]

No she just didnt understand the concept of paying for medical treatement since it seemed crazy.

[Cpt_Frank]

Panem et Circenses
=
Bread and Games
=
Holodecks and Replicators

Sounds reasonable.

[SirNitram]

No she just didnt understand the concept of paying for medical treatement since it seemed crazy.

Yea, paying for something in a Communist regime is just plain crazy talk.


Aside from the flourishing black market, where that Romulan Ale comes from.

[BenRG]

In reply to Ai Phling Pu:

I'll try, but the difficult thing is that there is no real dialogue evidence of this. Just personal attitudes of those around them. In the case of Dr. McCoy and Mr. Sisko, there is this constant rain of comments in the episodes and films about how odd they are, not using Transporters, preparing and eating non-replicated food and so on. People look at them as being somewhat odd. Not in a dangerous way but in the same way that we think that grandma is odd for refusing to work out how to program a VCR, or that people consider my mother odd for preferring vinyl to CDs.

Captain Picard is renowned for his relaxed attitudes towards the command structure (although he would deny it to your face if asked). He gives his senior staff a great deal of lattitude in how they work and how they talk to him. This is either looked down upon (Jellico is a good example) or considered somewhat strange by other officers ('The Drumhead' for an example of how out-of-ordinary he is considered by his peers).

I'm talking about Chakotay's tribe, not the Maquis. Remeber that he spent his youth chasing around the galaxy after his nonconformist father who loved anti-technology groups. Because of that, Chakotay stated on several occasions that he experienced subtle bigotry from people who didn't understand why anyone would dislike the 'perfect' Federation society.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I know wongs busy but we would prefer to just read his site as opposed to you reading it to us.

Chakotay prefered the feds even he thought his father was out there.
You say odd in some minor way that exists today - that doesnt indicate the Feds are evil.

[BenRG]

You say odd in some minor way that exists today - that doesnt indicate the Feds are evil.

Not really the same scale. Unpredictable technology and preferring cooked to molecularly-recombined (when you can't really tell what is really in there.

This isn't being considered strange for preferring the styles of yesteryear, this is being considered strange for having worries about genuinely unpredictable and potentially dangerous technologies that have become commonplace before anyone was sure exactly how safe they were...

No, you're right, that happens right now (mobile 'phones, anyone?).

I suppose the point that I am trying to make (and why I didn't like the lack of more options on the poll) is that the Federation isn't evil, rather too convinced of its' inherit goodness to be entirely healthy.

[Mr Bean]

I suppose the point that I am trying to make (and why I didn't like the lack of more options on the poll) is that the Federation isn't evil, rather too convinced of its' inherit goodness to be entirely healthy

Ironic eh?
In more than one way too

Your absoutly right a group that goes out of its way to say how perfect it is(USSR, China) and wants nothing but the best for people because they know better is exactly how the Federation is protrayed

Agree?

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: I agree upto a point, yes the feds think they are a paragon of virtue but compared to virtually every other government in the neighbourhood they are.

You say they believe they know whats best for their people better than those people.... well I would say the only fed gov agency that describes would be section 31 the federation seems to be a democrarcy unlike any other i.e it works.

Who often do you see Fed citizens throw themselves under tanks (if the feds have any) - they seem to be happy, no one is dying or going hungry and a great morality and low crime.

Whats so evil?

I would agree that the feds belief in themselves can get the better of them sometimes but overall it seems to be many times better than other choices.

[Stravo]

I think that this debate can be resolved (partially I guess since we seem to LOVE to fight over these things) by focussing on the most fundamental point about ST. Roddenberry wanted to express a future where man himself became better. Gene firmly believed that we would evolve along with technology and he had a very humanist view of the universe. He was most likely an athiest if not a devout agnostic (think about it, EVERY god on ST is an alien or extradimensional being, the Greek gods were aliens, etc. ) Thus he wants to say that humanity will grow beyond the current brutish and greedy people we are to become the paragons of virtue we see on ST.

When Wong and others correctly point out the Communist or Totalatarian spirit of the Federation they ignore the one fundamental fact that would make it seem less evil or creepy. Man is not the same man we know and love today. man is NOT lazy, NOT greedy, NOT Selfish. Man has become in many ways more evolved and perfect. Many of us may vomit at this viewpoint and belief but obviously the man's vision of our future has many adherents and despite the fact that I do not agree with the view, ESPECIALLY the fact that we would change so in merely 200 years when we haven't changed much FUNDAMENTALLY I mean, in the last 2,000 it is still a valid view and one that has driven a franchise that has been going strong for over 20 years. How many of us can claim to even come close to this?

So in closing, I just wanted to throw in that clarification to kind of clear the air on this debate. We have to look at it through Gene's eyes since its his baby. He believes we will be a fundamentally different people in the future. I am firmly in GL's camp. We will be the same nasty greedy folk we are today but still have that stubborn nobility that makes us so special no matter what day and age we live in.

[Admiral Piett]

I concur.
However I think that man cannot improve in the way suggested by Roddenberry.More techno toys will not make man better.From this point of view the civilization of star wars is much more realistic.
Watching star trek TNG we have to suspend disbelief and to believe that man will become suddenly better in 300 years.But in in the real world this is and will be impossible,much more impossible than building FTL capable starships,replicators or transporters.Maybe in 300 or 1000 years we will have finally these toys but man will be basically the same as today.
Man was greedy before capitalism and he is still greedy in a non capitalistic society.
Political and philosophical opinions can change and maybe in the 2200 they will read with horror the description of our policies about immigration like we read with horror descriptions about slavery.
But we are greedy,lazy and cruel and we will always remain so.