Proof of the existence of Star Trek ground assault vehicles

[Master of Ossus]

SCVN 2812 -- do you happen to have the quote from the episode of Voyager itself, rather than the reference from the Encyclopedia? One suspects that SirNirtram's objection is that the Encyclopedia may be speculating the existence of the Klingon ground assault vehicle -- the Encyclopedia is, after all, a secondary source; some of it is canonical, some of it is not.

Publius

The episode, whose title I have managed to forget, is the one in which the Voyager gets into a mating fight with a (presumably male) space whale over who gets to have sex with the little (presumably female) space whales. Torres comes up with the idea of setting up some manner of repulsion device that will allow Voyager to move through the herd without having to hurt the space whales. She says in dialogue that her idea is inspired by the targ scoops fitted on Klingon ground assault vehicles. (Why Klingons would bother, when running a GAV through targ herds would provide yummy minced raw targ is another question, of course.)

Maybe they're designed like the hedgecutters of WWII--to cut through hedges, and that they just retain the name from other Klingon forms of transportation in the past. The name is conspicuously similar to the "cow catchers" placed on trains by people here on earth.

In any case, the capabilities of the Klingon assault vehicle remains a source of complete conjecture. It may have the firepower of a modern M1A1, or it may be significantly stronger or weaker, we really do not know. Starfleet has never been shown to have a counter for this vehicle, be it weapons geared to destroy it or other, similar vehicles. The ones that we see on the trailer for Nemesis seem conspicuously lightly armored for a fighting vehicle, and the isomagnetic disintegrator appears as if it could easily damage them!

[SirNitram]

Actually, now that I think of the "Perfect place, perfect time" syndrome, Fuck you does come to my head.....

Thank you.

You know, it's not like I hide the fact I'm going to be abusive to idiots. It's right in my sig. Of course, the downside being that the idiots often gesture wildly at my language.. Since I am an asshole.. Instead of trying to rebutt the points.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The one canon reference to a combat (sort of) vehicle in use by Starfleet or other Federation forces is in the DS9 episode in which Jake Sisko finds out that he panics in dangerous situations. Specifically, it's the episode in which Klingons are attacking a Federation colony and Jake ends up disoriented by Klingon flour bombs.

There are several references to "hoppers" being used to insert and extract troops, the context always making it clear that they are used much like helicopters were used in Vietnam. All the dialogue I recall, however, implies that hoppers are essentially unarmed and unarmored.

In another DS9 episode, Quark tries his hand at being an arms dealer. Reference is made to duranium (or tritanium?) plated assault skimmers or some such, but they do not appear to be Federation vehicles.

Basically, it seems that Starfleet does not perceive a need for effective ground combat vehicles, nor a need for atmospheric combat vehicles. It does tend to indicate complacency, as well as reliance on orbital starship support and Klingon ground forces (as long as the Klingons feel somehow obliged to lend aid and are not themselves the threat force).

It is an exceedingly strange attitude. Humans may have somehow evolved beyond the need for violent solutions to their problems, a claim belied by the many canon cases of humans seeking violent solutions to their often petty problems, but these humans and other Federation species live in a galaxy apparently filled with violent albeit not particularly competent militaristic species.

In engineering terms, of course, it would be a relatively simple matter of taking something like the hull of the older TNG shuttlecraft, the warp-capable ones with the smooth lines instead of angled, and modifiying it appropriately.

Step 1. Remove the warp and, if appropriate, the impulse drive units, leaving the shuttle as a purely atmospheric craft, albeit one capable of reaching orbit from the surface or being deployed from orbit.

Step 2. Install hull reinforcing materials like the various -anium metals/alloys used by Starfleet, and maybe some ablative plating.

Step 3. Reprogram the computer system so that it will support both atmospheric flight and high speed travel at ground level, retaining the navigational deflector system as a sort of kinetic ram that may allow the vehicle to power its way through a wall or underbrush the same way as a modern tank can.

Step 4. Install a dorsal turret based on the cylindrical turrets used to defend DS9. One wraparound phaser strip and a vertical launch unit for the teeny-weeny torpedos used by runabouts and shuttlecraft should do it.

Step 5. Install unobtrusive antipersonnel phaser units, 2 per side, on the sides and rear of the vehicle to protect the vehicle against infantry and light vehicle assaults, remembering to not make the little things stick out. An old-fashioned phaser III emitter set in a hemispherical turret would be just fine.

Step 6. Get decent defensive shields, jammers, smoke generators, etc.

Step 7. Install a decent power supply.

Step 8. Above the forward view panel, which you really should tint, install one of those nifty squarish and nearly flush phaser emitters like the runabouts have.

Step 9. If you haven't done so already, install a door or two in additiona to the usual ramp/hatch things, and physically separate the piloting compartment from the rear compartment by means of a secure door and armored wall.

Step 10. If producing an APC, install bench seating with seat belts in the rear compartment; removing the bench seating allows reconfiguration for command vehicle, ambulance or armed/armored supply vehicle roles.

Step 11. If producing a fire-support or anti-aircraft vehicle, add two to four additional vertical microtorpedo launch tubes, set flush in the roof of the vehicle, and supply the vehicle with plenty of torpedoes and a bit of extra power.

Step 12. If producing a tank or something like one, add extra hull plating, extra shielding and loads of extra power generation capacity, and don't forget to include heavy-duty reinforced power systems for the phaser emitters so that the vehicle can routinely fire overpowered bursts from the main phasers (turret and forward/top) without danger of damage to the vehicle's systems.

Step 13. To produce a heavy bombardment vehicle, gut the entire rear section and replace it with a full-size photon torpedo launcher capable of launching up to a half-dozen or so torpedoes. Retain the forward/top phaser and the antipersonnel phaser turrets to allow the vehicle to defend itself.

Step 14. For local protection, deploy selected APC-type vehicles whose rear compartments are modified with extra power systems and wide-area shield generators capable of individually protecting small encampments.

Step 15. Cry when you realize that none of that is going to happen.

[NecronLord]

At-Sts give support to AT-AT attack groups, in the special edition at least, They seem to get picked off by rebel fire, but i can't see a hand phaser doing that,

Fed gets under AT-ST takes aim at the hinges on panel. Note skywalker slices the lock and or hinges off the panel, he doesent slice the panel off.
Fed immedialtly gets blasted by an AT-ST

[starfury]

[Your next one is a faint, speculative hope. So is the one after that. It is not necessarily that they have tanks. Their thoughts may be different. Just because the Klingons still retained a modicum of Combined Arms does not mean the Federation has to have even that bit of intelligence. The Federation may have chosen to dedicate its efforts in space superiority, reasoning that if the enemy is intercepted before it can land its troops, maybe they can save themselves a ground battle.]

exactly, the imperials have actually shown that they possess heavy ground forces. the mighty AT-AT is just one many imperial armor which is much larger then any modern tank. so even if the klingon "Tank" is as strong as a modern M1A1, the AT-AT and AT-ST will still smoke them.

[Shadow]

exactly, the imperials have actually shown that they possess heavy ground forces. the mighty AT-AT is just one many imperial armor which is much larger then any modern tank. so even if the klingon "Tank" is as strong as a modern M1A1, the AT-AT and AT-ST will still smoke them.

I doubt an AT-ST could deat an M1A1. It certainly couldn't defeat an M1A2.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well, an AT-ST is more like a Jeep or a Hummer, so it wouldn't be a good comparison. The AT-AT is more like a tank/transport.

[Peregrin Toker]

The AT-AT is more like a tank/transport.

Actually, I thought of the AT-AT as something that cannot be compared to any modern vehicle - a bit like the Titans of Warhammer 40K.

By the way, while it's tempting to theorize that the Klingon Empire has ground assault vehicles, I'm far from sure that the Federation also has them.

The Federation appear to be quite peaceful, and usually stay out of wars which doesn't involve themselves. Even the Starfleet's ships are constructed with exploration as their primary purpose (with notable exceptions - such as the Sovereign-class battleship and the Defiant-class escort ship)

The Klingon Empire, however, is extremely militaristic and its government seems to superimpose a militaristic mindset and culture upon its citizens. (Yeah, yeah, I'm just trying to explain the way the Klingons seem to have one, totally uniform culture!!)

Also, we have seen several occassions where the Federation military could have used ground assault vehicles but didn't.

[RayCav of ASVS]

There are several references to "hoppers" being used to insert and extract troops, the context always making it clear that they are used much like helicopters were used in Vietnam. All the dialogue I recall, however, implies that hoppers are essentially unarmed and unarmored.

I think it's just Marine slang for larger shuttles. At least we know Fed Marines exist, even if they're just Redshirts who think they're special:p

[RayCav of ASVS]

Also I'm writing a fanfic where the mirror universe Rebels build a Star Trek tech fighter with the guidance of someone from the Star Wars universe. Chapter One and Two may be seen on ASVS. Chapter Three through Ten will (hopefully) be done tomorrow.

[Peregrin Toker]

Also I'm writing a fanfic where the mirror universe Rebels build a Star Trek tech fighter with the guidance of someone from the Star Wars universe.

Interesting... it would bring a ST tech fighter which apparently isn't designed by an idiot.

[Patrick Ogaard]

There are several references to "hoppers" being used to insert and extract troops, the context always making it clear that they are used much like helicopters were used in Vietnam. All the dialogue I recall, however, implies that hoppers are essentially unarmed and unarmored.

I think it's just Marine slang for larger shuttles. At least we know Fed Marines exist, even if they're just Redshirts who think they're special:p

I thought the fellow leaking his guts out in the blast crater was supposed to be a militia or security trooper from the colony's own cobbled-together force. Regardless of how that works out, though, I suspect that the hopper is closer to the air trams that amble around San Francisco airspace in various ST movies and, I believe, a few DS9 episodes. That would mean that a hopper would look like a shuttle but be incapable of reaching orbit or travelling in space.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Klingon Mortors: Fail to kill a few meters away
Fed Iso Desitigrator: Failed to kill people a few meters away (they were still moving)

[Master of Ossus]

Klingon Mortors: Fail to kill a few meters away
Fed Iso Desitigrator: Failed to kill people a few meters away (they were still moving)

Federation personnel: still use phasers as primitive and completely ad hoc grenades, demonstrating their lack of superior area-effect weapons.

[TheDarkling]

They have Phtoton granades (with variable settings) - mentioned in Legacy.

[Master of Ossus]

They have Phtoton granades (with variable settings) - mentioned in Legacy.

So why is it that they still overload phasers? Those grenades are probably no longer used, or only given out to people who are likely to need them. They are certainly not standard issue.

[TheDarkling]

They were used in TNG (at least mentioned), why arent they used - because standard away teams dont get them.

Why use the phaser on overload? how often does that happen? give me some examples.

[Master of Ossus]

exactly, the imperials have actually shown that they possess heavy ground forces. the mighty AT-AT is just one many imperial armor which is much larger then any modern tank. so even if the klingon "Tank" is as strong as a modern M1A1, the AT-AT and AT-ST will still smoke them.

I doubt an AT-ST could deat an M1A1. It certainly couldn't defeat an M1A2.

But an AT-ST should be compared with infantry. It was designed (along with the AT-PT) to increase the firepower of a group of infantry soldiers. The AT-AT is a better example of a dedicated piece of armor. It is essentially an armored, mobile artillery piece. I think that it would crush either an M1A1 or an M1A2. You cannot compare infantry of one universe to the AFV's of another.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The AT-ST is best compared to the armored HMMWV, also known as the Humvee. Both fill approximately the same role. The heaviest modern US military vehicle filling a similar role is the cavalry version of the Bradley. Neither vehicle seems likely to be able to reliably beat an AT-ST.

As for the AT-AT, since it combines the capabilities of an over-armored and over-gunned main battle tank with the capacity to transport troops equivalent to the capacities of about five Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, it should probably be compared on the basis of 1 AT-AT to an M1A2 Abrams platoon and two platoons of Bradley IFVs. I strongly suspect that the AT-AT would win the fight. None of the tracked vehicles carries a weapon likely to be able to defeat the armor of an AT-AT (unless one were to bury an Abrams platoon completely in the ground, with only the muzzles of their 120 mm guns pointing out of the ground, and then wait for an AT-AT to move overhead and offer an absolutely perfect belly shot, in which case it might be better to just spend all the money on lottery tickets, because winning the lottery is likelier than having that happen even once in any reasonable scenario).