Federation Post-Endgame weapons

[Romulan_nemesis]

As for the shield bypassing, it will against the Borg. But having a torpedo that can't be adapted to means little to a Star Destroyer.

Did you see the episode? Maybe they're more than that. Setting Shield bypassing aside, can a single photon torpedo totally annihalate a borg cube? In First contact, an entire task force of Federation ships, after they took out the Borg's shields, had to fire at once on the cube just to destroy it. The Cube is obviously one of the more powerful vessels in the galaxy. Shields, hull strength and all. But ONE TPT could annihalate (sp?) annhilate it. If the Empire decided to invade the Federation after endgame when all the ships were refitted....It might even the odds a bit.

Just My own opinion though...

[Mr Bean]

Yes thats another thing comparing SW and ST shields is like comparing AC and DC

While ST(AC) gets the job done it gets it by plusing back and forth many many many times each second but as a consquence at some points there is no shield up(Likely why they shoot Soild long lasting beamns instead of quick bursts, some is likley to *bleed through to hit the ship)
Meanwhile SW(DC) is up and running contiusiusly, There is no *off stage, The shields are always up and running likely a torpedo that exploits the off state of ST shields would not work aginst SW always on shields instead acting like a normal Torp would

[TheDarkling]

Romulan_nemesis: Thats a misquote Sir Nitram said that not me.

Mr Bean: As I have said I havent seen the episode in ages however I was under the impression that the torps were along a similar line to a phase cloak in that they could pass thru solid matter but thats just my hazy recollection.

Either way they have a rather large yield to say the least.

[Romulan_nemesis]

Darkling, Im sorry for the misquote. I find your posts very thought provoking by the way.

[TheDarkling]

No problem, and thanks.

The tech maybe under lock and key due to the temporal implications however if the imps came a kncking section 31 would break it out in a heart beat.

Insurection proved that the feds put survival over there ethics - at least upto a point.

[Graeme Dice]

Until the weapons and technology are actually used, they only exist on Voyager. One Intrepid class, no matter how souped up, cannot win a war for the Federation. It simply can't be everywhere at once.

[SirNitram]

Allow me to review something many people are ignoring.

1) The torpedos are a Borg-specific weapon.
2) The torpedos are a Borg-specific weapon.

etc.

They are only fired against a Borg target, despite non-Borg targets waiting to be shot by them(Romulan).

If you are going to claim they can do jack or shit to a Non-Borg target, you better have a shitload of Canon evidence that they don't just exploit a weakness in Borg shields.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: People have already posted why the weapons werent used on Klingons, however I can im going to have to get a hold of the episode and watch it again myself.

Graeme Dice: If what im being told is correct, Voyager managed to fit and create these weapons in a few days and with very limited materials/crew, no ship yard etc. If they do work it sounds like every ship could be sent the plans and be ready to use the weapons in a couple of days.

[SirNitram]

[quote="TheDarkling"]SirNitram: People have already posted why the weapons werent used on Klingons, however I can im going to have to get a hold of the episode and watch it again myself.[quote]

All that has been said is it could 'Start a war'. But given what Janeway does, I doubt she would give a shit on that account... And if the Federation has these UberTorps, they'd WIN the war, easily. I don't consider that a reason. Again, they have only been shown to work on Borg vessels. I will make a small escape, though. IF Nemesis shows the Enterprise or another Starfleet vessel using these torpedos on a Non-Borg target, I will concede they are a weapon for use beyond Borg, and begin making proper calculations to determine their full power/effectiveness.

[Phil Skayhan]

I downloaded the script months ago and began to read through it, coming to a screetching halt when I encountered the words "Admiral Janeway".

Now I admit that my dislike for that charachter may cloud my judgement regarding the rest of the movie given that we'll never see the command staff meeting we should:

<DEPART ORIGINAL SCRIPT>
<INT READY ROOM>

Picard: We just recieved new orders Starfleet. Admiral Janeway has..

<audible groans are heard including one uttereance of "we're fucked">

Picard: Now I realize the Admiral has had some difficulties..

Riker: Captain! With all due respect, in the time since she assumed command of Starfleet Operation, we've lost nearly a third of our ships.

Picard: It's true there have been some minor setback.

Troi: The ship's councelor that was killed on Voyager had sent a report to Starfleet HQ in which requesting that Janeway be replaced at the earliest oppurtunity.

Picard: On what grounds?

Troi: That she is a manic-depressive, meglo-maniacal, chemical dependant looney.

Data: It is a matter of record that shortly after she led a delegation to Cronos, the Klingon Empire began a campaign of aggresssion against Federation worlds along their border.

Dr Crusher: And after her visit to DS9, Bajor announced it would be joining the Cardassian Union.

LaForge: I heard she's been trying to open a dialouge with the Romulans.

Picard: Funny you should mention that....

<RETURN TO ORIGINAL SCRIPT.

[Crayz9000]

Heh. I like it

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

LOL.

[TheDarkling]

Fantastic - That was great, would have made the best star trek movie ever just for that scene.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You know what would be great-er, I mean suck? Now Worf is a little clusmy, what if he "accidentally" fired on Voyager?

[TheDarkling]

Actually shouldnt worf be the federation ambassidor to the klingon empire - isnt that how he ended up when DS9 finished.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Actually transphasic might be VERY usefull against SW ships. According to a comment from the producers (which also happens to be backed up from what we see on the actual episode for once) transphasic torpedos are type 6 photon torpedos (artillery torpedo with 200 isoton yield- roughly 4 times more powerful than a quantum torpedo) modified so that they are able to pass through shields and hulls and detonate inside the target rather than on the target's hull or shields. This actually does explain how 1 torpedo can destroy a Cube and the slight delay between the torpedo visually hitting the cube and from then on not being visible and detonating. This actually turns enemy hull strength against them as the thicker the hull armor the more of the blast that is contained within the ship.

Kim's failure to use them against the Klingons can be explained in a couple different ways:

1. He didn't even have transphasics, not suprising since he was in command of a Nova-class starship, which is primarily a science roled ship rather than a dual mission exploration/defense ship like most ships in starfleet. Kim's ship did not possess the ablative hull armor projectors either, which lends further support to this since it seems obvious that Starfleet didn't intend for the Nova-class to see combat.

2. The Federation/Klingon alliance persists and the Federation developed a counter measure to the torpedos and shared it with the Klingons.

3. Kim didn't want to destroy the Klingon ships as destroying two Klingon battleships (by this time they would probably be downgraded to battlecruisers but that's a different debate) would probably not improve Klingon-Federation relations.


The ablative hull armor is not particularly useful as it appears to interfere with shield projection (Voyager nor Janeway's shuttle raised shields while their armor was deployed- why leave another layer of defense unused if it's availible?) and, depending upon the conductivity of the ablative armor, could make ships using it vulnerable to ion cannons.

Kim's ship waws not a Nova-Class starship. It was a newer class that resembled a Nova. Second Kim's ship did have the armor tech (if I remember correctly). Do you think that even the boldest Captain would dare to attack to Neg'Var class warships with a Nova. Seems suicidal to me.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What the Producer's say shouldn't be concidered canon. Only onscreen stuff is. And we see the torpedoes explode on the hulls.

[SirNitram]

What the Producer's say shouldn't be concidered canon. Only onscreen stuff is. And we see the torpedoes explode on the hulls.

Indeed, it plainly isn't Canon. It's been repeated over and over that only Live Action Star Trek is Canon.

[2000AD]

Wong has a Trekkie up on his hate mail page discussing this. I think it's John Riele

[SCVN 2812]

If you watch closely there is a delay between the torpedo "hitting" the Cube and the explosion that follows, during this time the torpedo is no longer visible. The explosion that follows erupts out of the hull and not on the hull.

This is one case where the producers aren't full of crap, it is supported by visual evidence.

SirNitram, there is no evidence that the transphasic torpedo is just an anti-Borg weapon and in fact there is plenty of evidence that it should be work against other races because of the way it works.

And Kim's ship was a Nova-class, and it's not that unbelievable that he would attack two larger Klingon vessels because he was trying to buy time for Janeway to escape.

[Howedar]

SirNitram, there is no evidence that the transphasic torpedo is just an anti-Borg weapon and in fact there is plenty of evidence that it should be work against other races because of the way it works.

There is no evidence of the way it works. All we know is that they ignored Borg shields and detonated late. That is all.

[seanrobertson]

I seriously doubt TPT's are that powerful. If they were, why didn't Kim use them against the Warbirds in Endgame? I think the real key is that they ignore the Borg's precious shields. Since a Cube is just PVC piping without shields, a decent homing torpedo will annihilate them by bypassing shields...

You mean the Negh'Var variants? "Warbird" is probably an appropriate name for those ships, but it's not accurate...

Anyhow, I think you're constructing a false dilemma. Kim probably
didn't use those fancy torpedos against the two Negh'Var variants
because he was there to create a *distraction*, nothing else. Remember
his exchange with Old Fart Janewad?

Besides, blowing up two ships owned by a member of the Klingon
High Council might be kinda bad for Klingon-Federation relations.
There's also zero indication that a mere science vessel like the Nova-class USS Rhode Island would even CARRY transphasic torpedos.

I also have a problem with the idea that all TPTs do is "ignore Borg shields." We've certainly seen photon torpedos blasting an unshielded
cube's hull before ("First Contact" leaps to mind), but they didn't blow
the cube to smithereens.

No: transphasic torpedos must involve a considerably higher yield than
anything before them. Would they be enough to make the Federation
competitive with the Empire, ship-to-ship? Hell no. But there IS a difference, irrelevant in the end as it may be.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Enlightenment]

I seriously doubt TPT's are that powerful. If they were, why didn't Kim use them against the Warbirds in Endgame?

TPTs might not be standard equipment on ships primarily intended for research/scentific use.

[Crayz9000]

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

Sean, please try not to double-post. I've already fixed it, but it's just a reminder for the future.

[SCVN 2812]

Show me some evidence that transphasics don't operate the way I described? The on screen evidence is on my side and what is so special about Borg shields that transphasic torpedos apply exclusively to them? There is no evidence to suggest that Borg shields are in any way different than those on any other race's ships, just proportionately more powerful with the greater size and technology level of the Borg.

Truth hurts, in this case it can really hurt Imperial plans for an invasion of the Federation.