Gang rapes mother...

[Mr. T]

Also, prison rape victims tend to be overwhelmingly white.

Why is this, exactly? A quick search of prison.org turned up this:

Inside prison everything is determined by race. Housing, exercise, eating, clothing and access to various jobs and programs depend on skin color. One prison in California had weightlifting equipment labeled "B" for black, "W" for white, and "L" for Latino to avoid fights over it. Each race might have its own barber who uses clippers only on members of one race. Prisoners segregate themselves at meals. Whites and blacks prohibit their own from exchanging food, candy or cigarettes. Just walking the halls with someone of another color can bring angry questions, taunting or assault.

I suppose that given this segregation and given blacks superior numbers at federal prisons it might just be a matter of whites being the easiest "group" to target.

[PeZook]

No, I dont think they'll get raped, nor do I think that everyone gets raped in prison.

However, I do think that some inmates will not tolerate what these bastards did, and when the guards suddenly leave, and they are alone with some guys who did something like this, then they might shank them, I wasnt implying they would be raped.

Ah. Yeah, I misunderstood you. Sorry for the harsh words, I'm just tired of seeing the same tired old "Say hello to Bubba from me" which seems to pop up every time there's a news article about some horrible crime or another.

Yeah, it's possible they will get shanked or roughed up in prison, if for no other reason than because they're teenagers.

[Darth Ruinus]

No, I dont think they'll get raped, nor do I think that everyone gets raped in prison.

However, I do think that some inmates will not tolerate what these bastards did, and when the guards suddenly leave, and they are alone with some guys who did something like this, then they might shank them, I wasnt implying they would be raped.

Ah. Yeah, I misunderstood you. Sorry for the harsh words, I'm just tired of seeing the same tired old "Say hello to Bubba from me" which seems to pop up every time there's a news article about some horrible crime or another.

Yeah, it's possible they will get shanked or roughed up in prison, if for no other reason than because they're teenagers.

Its cool, although on my half I should have stated what I meant a bit better.

[PeZook]

Its cool, although on my half I should have stated what I meant a bit better.

Thinking about it some more, there's the whole "Forcing a 12 year old to have sex with his mother" thing that might actually relegate them to the bottom of the pile.

All of this is speculation, though - if they just rot in prison for life, that should be punishment enough.

[sketerpot]

Its cool, although on my half I should have stated what I meant a bit better.

Thinking about it some more, there's the whole "Forcing a 12 year old to have sex with his mother" thing that might actually relegate them to the bottom of the pile.

You'd think so, but these weren't a bunch of sickos who decided to form a horrific rape club. These were probably just garden-variety thugs with less conscience than most, who got caught up in a groupthink frenzy.

If that can happen to ordinary violent criminals, who's to say that the other violent inmates haven't done things like that, or had friends who did?

[metavac]

Also, prison rape victims tend to be overwhelmingly white.

Why is this, exactly? A quick search of prison.org turned up this:

Inside prison everything is determined by race. Housing, exercise, eating, clothing and access to various jobs and programs depend on skin color. One prison in California had weightlifting equipment labeled "B" for black, "W" for white, and "L" for Latino to avoid fights over it. Each race might have its own barber who uses clippers only on members of one race. Prisoners segregate themselves at meals. Whites and blacks prohibit their own from exchanging food, candy or cigarettes. Just walking the halls with someone of another color can bring angry questions, taunting or assault.

I suppose that given this segregation and given blacks superior numbers at federal prisons it might just be a matter of whites being the easiest "group" to target.

I don't know for sure, but my hypothesis is that the demographics account for a significant part of it. Upwards 60 percent of the prison population at a time is Black or Hispanic. If race doesn't influence predilection for sexual assault, then a clear majority of rapes should be committed by Black and Hispanic offenders. I also suspect the gang cultures in prison will further protect Blacks from white rapists while making white inmates more susceptible to attack. Either way, this is a damn serious issue that probably doesn't get enough attention from policymakers.

[Coyote]

If there IS truly anything that could turn someone gay, that poor 12 year old forced to have sex with his mother would be a prime candidate.

Am I the only one going on that?

[Justforfun000]

Am I the only one going What the fuck? on that?

Well I guess I meant it more sarcastically since the right-wing propaganda is so convinced that people unwittingly "nurture" this lifestyle. I'm just horrified by that part of the crime. That more than any other singular thing done was just sick beyond measure.

[Dark Hellion]

This is the reason that I believe that certain crimes deserve what would normally be called cruel and unusual. Society deserves to know that people who commit these crimes will experience the suffering they bring to society. Since hell doesn't exist, we are required to make it for them here. It has nothing to do with deterrence, but with desert, they deserve to burn for this.

[Tanasinn]

If there IS truly anything that could turn someone gay, that poor 12 year old forced to have sex with his mother would be a prime candidate.

Am I the only one going on that?

It seems to me the poster is implying that being forced to rape one's mother would make one terrified of sexual relationships with women, and thus more likely to seek sexual relations with males.

[Justforfun000]

It seems to me the poster is implying that being forced to rape one's mother would make one terrified of sexual relationships with women, and thus more likely to seek sexual relations with males.

Yes. that is exactly what I wondered. If there ever WERE any traumatic experiences that could conceivably 'switch' someone, I would say that would have to be a candidate. How could you begin to gauge the effect that had on that poor child's mind. I can't fathom how I'd deal with it as an ADULT.

[Dennis Toy]

shanked?? stop being weak

These muthafuckas should be left alone in a prison cell with a bunch of KKK fuckers, then their extremities should be cut off and eyes gouged out with a rusty pair of pliers.

[Lord Zentei]

shanked?? stop being weak

These muthafuckas should be left alone in a prison cell with a bunch of KKK fuckers, then their extremities should be cut off and eyes gouged out with a rusty pair of pliers.

Why do we always get tough guy bullshit like this whenever there is a thread on some horrible crime or other around here?

[Dark Hellion]

The thing that is annoying is that i made a legitimate moral argument for it and we still get the "boil'em alive" morons.

[Lord Zentei]

The thing that is annoying is that i made a legitimate moral argument for it and we still get the "boil'em alive" morons.

Of course, there are moral arguments against punishing people cruelly because of what they "deserve", both from an ethical and practical perspective.

Hell may be nonexistant, but it is also undesirable.

[Justforfun000]

Lets see how quickly these people would step up to the plate if THEY had to administer the punishment, eh? I'd like to see how tough they'd be then.

[Dark Hellion]

Of course Lord Zentei, as well as the practical problems of finding the people who can administer the punishment. I believe that justice is not always palatable to normal people, because the crimes are just as unpalatable.

[Lord Zentei]

Of course Lord Zentei, as well as the practical problems of finding the people who can administer the punishment. I believe that justice is not always palatable to normal people, because the crimes are just as unpalatable.

There is something odd about the grammar you are using here.

In any case, you seem to fail to realize that what you perceive as "justice" isn't neccesarily justifiable. I'm assuming that you meant "they deserve to burn" literally.

[Dark Hellion]

No, I don't mean literally deserve to burn. And I was speaking in the arbitrary, as the practicality of some form of controlled administration of suffering is extremely difficult.

And I am using justice in the "the administering of deserved punishment or reward." usage. These boys deserve extreme anguish and suffering because these activities cause extreme suffering to both their victims and society. They acted without any thought for the consequences of their actions, but they deserve to suffer them, because that is justice, to suffer the fair consequences of what they do. Rape with such premeditated cruelty deserves more than death, the simple removal from society is insufficient for punishment, as they have chosen to go beyond even the normal callousness that defines common criminality, and have entered that unspeakable area that is beyond that.

[Mr. T]

shanked?? stop being weak

These muthafuckas should be left alone in a prison cell with a bunch of KKK fuckers, then their extremities should be cut off and eyes gouged out with a rusty pair of pliers.

How do you know the perpetrators were black? I re-read the article and it makes no mention of race.

[Lord Zentei]

And I am using justice in the "the administering of deserved punishment or reward." usage. These boys deserve extreme anguish and suffering because these activities cause extreme suffering to both their victims and society. They acted without any thought for the consequences of their actions, but they deserve to suffer them, because that is justice, to suffer the fair consequences of what they do. Rape with such premeditated cruelty deserves more than death, the simple removal from society is insufficient for punishment, as they have chosen to go beyond even the normal callousness that defines common criminality, and have entered that unspeakable area that is beyond that.

Then as far as you're concerned, the function of punishment is to cause suffering to the wrongdoer, rather than to protect society. That's really quite banal and primitive thinking.

Doubtless many wrongdoers thought that their victims "deserved" what they did to them; did you consider that? Of course, a government has a monopoly on the use of violence (that being one of its defining characteristics), but that right is enjoyed by government in order to permit society to function. Thus, to use violence above and beyond what society needs to function is not justifiable -- particularly as you have also stated that you're not interested in disincentives.

[metavac]

How do you know the perpetrators were black? I re-read the article and it makes no mention of race.

The incident took place in Dunbar Village, an overwhelmingly black housing project.

[Dark Hellion]

The function of punishment is to cause suffering to the wrongdoer and to remove the wrongdoer from society completely, either through permanent incarceration or death. The function of rehabilitation and confinement is to remove the wrongdoer from society until they are no longer a danger to society.

The line where a crime crosses from desert of rehabilitation to desert of punishment is a major sticking point, of course, as there is little we can do to determine all the exculpating circumstances. A crime of passion deserves rehab, a cold-blooded murder punishment. One is committed within the bounds of society, one rejects such bounds and in rejection of society gives desert for removal and rejects the rights and privileges that society grants. There are crimes that the thought of which should be so heinous that commission of them is a statement that you wish to leave the protections that society grants, and as such you wish to be treated in the same manner than you treated your victim. In the end, by choosing to commit such crimes, they give the punishment to themselves. If there is deterrence, it is a bonus, but their suffering is promised them by their commission, and if they feel their rights are infringed, fuck them, because they fired the first shot, so to speak.

[Invictus ChiKen]

When I read this... I couldn't eat for several hours. For me that is an oddity (I was called Scooby Doo as a kid by some relatives for a reason!)

Why do we always get tough guy bullshit like this whenever there is a thread on some horrible crime or other around here?

Because people get shocked by these kinds of reports and they have to vent, which they do with either

A: Letting lose of all kinds of sadistic actions.

OR

B: Let lose with dark humor.

[Lord Zentei]

The function of punishment is to cause suffering to the wrongdoer and to remove the wrongdoer from society completely, either through permanent incarceration or death.

I surmise you have justification for this assertion other than your opinion? And you are conflating "causing suffering to the wrongdoer" and "remove the wrongdoer fron society" as though they were inseperable, when it is the justification for the former that is lacking.

he function of rehabilitation and confinement is to remove the wrongdoer from society until they are no longer a danger to society.

And in your world, incarceration is seperate and distinct from punishment?

The line where a crime crosses from desert of rehabilitation to desert of punishment is a major sticking point, of course, as there is little we can do to determine all the exculpating circumstances.

Alas, you have not shown there to be any such line at all.

A crime of passion deserves rehab, a cold-blooded murder punishment. One is committed within the bounds of society, one rejects such bounds and in rejection of society gives desert for removal and rejects the rights and privileges that society grants. There are crimes that the thought of which should be so heinous that commission of them is a statement that you wish to leave the protections that society grants, and as such you wish to be treated in the same manner than you treated your victim. In the end, by choosing to commit such crimes, they give the punishment to themselves. If there is deterrence, it is a bonus, but their suffering is promised them by their commission, and if they feel their rights are infringed, fuck them, because they fired the first shot, so to speak.

More rah rah rah without any logical backing. Unless, of course, the first few sentences were meant as logical backing, in which case you are question-begging.

"Given the punishment to themselves"? Bullshit. And I love the way you simply ignored my argument above, which touches upon this very point.