TheDarkling wrote:The colony that Yar came from broke away from the federation (if it was ever a federation world - im not sure) and thus the poverty/crime etc was not federation.
We are told poverty has been gotten rid of - can you give me evidence to contary.
ST Encyclopedia entry: Yar, Natasha says: "Ukranian in descent, Yar was born on a failed FEDERATION colony on planet Turkana IV." (capitals mine) "Her parents were killed when she was only five and she spend much of her childhood in a bitter struggle for survival, evading marauding rape gangs and caring for her younger sister, Ishara Yar."
Clearly, the Encyclopedia agrees with me. Please do not attempt to continue the debate on this topic.
BTW, this also brings up the question of why, if the Federation was so benevolent, it would leave colonists on a failed colony.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
The Encyclopedia isnt canon unless it directly from an episode (which it may be, I dont know one way or the other I assume it was federation but im not sure).
If the colony decided to leave the Federation then it becomes a prime directive matter.
"Monuments could be rebuilt - already explained about documents."
Or the damage could be minor, take your pick. Frankly, some monument could be rebuilt, but the idea that suddenly every major landmark would be rebuilt is far-fetched. Especially for the pure sake of it. Also, consider the anti-capitalist retoric of the Federation, why in anyone's name would they want to rebuid monuments and cities that represented a highly capitalist government (ie, the United States) especially when many of our 20th century culture (rock music, television, etc) has a negative light to the Federation and they hold their nose in the face of genuine 20th century americans (the Neutral Zone).
Documents, again, I can see wanting to preserve the classicals works of Plato and Shakespeare for future generations, but why keep an record of some mild mannered home makers family tree? This seems like a desperate pull to want to believe that WW3 is the end-all-be-all of all wars dispite the lack of supporting evidence.
"Proof that the News is censored??? - Jake seems shocked that the freedom of the press was being withheld by the Dominion."
I'll address this point below as it ties in with other claim which I feel like pointing out first. Jake's surprise can be explained, as an average Federation citizen would not be aware that the system with withhold news since they spoon fed information to the populas without any independent means to provide news; he won't know what the Federation news withholds since he would ablsolutely no means to find out, short of being an eyewitness. The government moonlighting the evils of the enemy while maintaining a tight lid on their on sins is quite common to keep it's population content; it's called propaganda.
"Proof of the other things you claim - Poverty etc. "
Easy, if their claims that war, disease, poverty, and prejudice are eliminated in the Federation then obvisously we shouldn't see any of this in their society, right?
Let's look at disease, which is illnesses and plagues that contribute to poor health conditions in an organism. People should not get sick in the Federation, am I correct? Then how could Harry Kim be so terrified at seeing a little girl die of a horrible disease in "Fear, itself" (or something on that order). How could the Enterprise had on mission dealing with plagues and viruses if the Federation had elimated disease?
What's poverty? It's when some people or class of people are below the line in terms of standard of living and have difficulty obtaining vital living and comfort needs that the norm has access to. Ossuss had already pointed out a good example, no need to repeat that.
Moving on to War. That can be defined in many ways, the best suited defination is war is an extremely violent course of action taken between two party who cannot settle their differences peacefully. Usually it involves weapons. Ever hear of the Dominion War. What do you think Phasers and Photon Torps are for? This is a blunt expression of the obvisous, and some trekkies would try to make up a story on how the Federation justify these actions. Justified or not is not an issue of debate, the fact remains the underling prerequiste to conduct warfare is the ability to resort to violence and becoming hostile. Humanity in the Federation had been shown to get angry, throw punches, and all that violent jazz. As far as I'm concerned, they had not eliminate the ability to conduct a war or the emotions needed.
My favorite is prejudice. Is the Federation beyond that? Hardly, considering that it's military teaches its cadets negative information about other species (displayed by Kim/Paris's warnings about Fergini in 'Caretaker'), and they classify personality traits with genetic traits of alien species.
Now, to address the news censorship issue. Consider this:
-The medium of television had died out in the 24th century.
-Now major interstellar corporations are mentioned in Star Trek, thus nothing to show an ST-version of CNN.
-The Federation and Starfleet seem to have control of all the subspace relays. All subspace communications have the same look and scheme.
-Whenever major events, such as the coup in "DS9:Paradise Lost" happened quietly with nobodies notice (the planet-wide black out nor the overthrowning of the president in place of martial law), as opposed to SW when news of the Battle of Endor spread across the galaxy dispite the Empire's close grip on holonet comms. This makes me wonder about their claims, elinimating disease, for example. The Federation says it no more, yet we clearly seen numerious incidents, let's think about it: the only way they could say something like that without being called out in face of contradictions is the obvisous fact that the government does not reveal information about the outbreaks to it's media.
"They dont say they are perfect but they are better than what we have today."
Oh, contrare, the TNG-cast often boosts the Federation being 'ideal', 'paradise', 'a uptopia' without the evils of disease, war, prejudice, and poverty. They lie, no debate. Whether or not you want to claim they are better than what we have today, then that's your opinion. However, I see why I would want to live in the 24 century Federation over 21st century Earth or even the SW Empire (at least they hide their negatiive sides in uptopian dogma).
"Your superior intelligect is no match for our primitive weapons!" -Kaang
"So tiny, you can't tell it's a deus ex machina!" -The Particles of Star Trek
1.The Federation does not love history. There is absolutely NO evidence that the kind of history that they teach is accurate, and in any case philosophy has little or nothing to do with history in most cases.
2. State-owned corporations TEND to be biased or censored. Even the BBC is, though not to the extent that many other state-owned companies are. BTW, ALL news agencies are biased to a certain extent. Many try very hard to minimize this, but all reporters bring their own unique POV into their stories.
3. So now you change disease to mean "easily curable disease." That is not what was stated earlier. Anyway, no one dies of easily curable diseases today, except for very unusual cases (parents refuse to allow their children to undergo surgery, innoculation, etc.) people die of such diseases in impoverished countries because in those countries that disease is not easily curable.
4. Poverty- It WAS a Federation colony. It failed. When the Federation failed to assist them, they broke away from the Federation. This indicates that the colony did not feel as though the Federation was helping them. the fact that no one even suggested that they attempt to go back indicates that the Federation actually was NOT making their lives any easier.
5. War is not significantly more rare today than it has been in the past. Do you know how many wars are going on right now in South America, Africa, Asia, and the Balkans?
6. By and large, white people get better scores on their SAT's then black people do (and men score higher than women, even though women do better in college than men do), but to say that white people are smarter than black people is CLEARLY racist and prejudiced. This is a COMPLETELY unfair stereotype. To say that Ferengi are untrustworthy is also not fair. How would we feel if someone said that white/asian/other ethnic group was untrustworthy?
7. State ownership DOES imply bias. Governments have the ability and the consent of the people to alter the facts of many stories. In fact, they are supposed to. That prevents people from doing things like learning that their loved ones are dead by watching a TV show.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
The Federation's disregard for and contempt for its own, specifically Earth's, history and cultures is neatly summed up by Picard's attempt to bribe the ruler of the Ligonians with a priceless archeological artifact of old Earth history accompanied by an insincere declaration of admiration for that culture and, by comparing it to that of the Ligonians, Picard's insincere admiration for Ligonian culture. Later in the episode (Code of Honor), Picard remarks on the customs of the Ligonians, "... same kind of pompous strutting charades that endangered our own species a few centuries ago."
Exactly how does a starship captain end up with neatly portable archeological artifacts to be passed out as bribes? Something more modern I could understand, sponsored by Starfleet, but an artifact with actual historical significance, an artifact that had survived on Earth for millenia?
3.Easily curable due to tech not situation thus you proved my point.
4.Proof?
5.So you agreeing with me? since that is what I just said.
6.Ferengi freely admit they arent trustworthy - its one of their laws, a tenent of their money worshiping religion.
Saying some hardline Islamic religions dont treat Women as equals (not making moral judgements) isnt prejudiced or wrong its a fact.
7.You already stated all news is based, I simply meant state owned doesnt mean more biased than company owned.
2.Jake worked for the federation news service which is similar to the BBC - a state owned news service, it doesnt mean its biased.
Yes but I suppose that the BBC is not the only news service in the UK.There are private newspapers and TV channels and so on.If the government started to use the BBC for propaganda the citizens could simply choose an other source.In the federation probably all news agencies are controlled by the state,thus leaving little choice.
3.Disease by and large is gone, yes there is still some but we dont have people dying of easily curable disease like we do now.
In western societies,at least those with national health services, people do not usually die of easily curable diseases.Thus there is not a great improvement over the current situation in developed countries.
4.Poverty - It was a non federation colony.
Dumped by the federation.Colonies can fail and if this happens they appparently dump them.
But in effect apart from that poverty is not very common.It is highly likely that there is no poverty (intended as hunger and so on) on Earth,the others major worlds and the great majority of the colonies.
5.War is much rarer then it is today when theres always a war going on somewhere in the world, the Federation does have long periods of peace.
6.Prejudice is once again much rarer - saying dont trust Ferengi is simply like saying Western people like to have money - by and large its true.
Probably is like saying that humans like to have money.
C)True but in my country the Telecomms company used to be government owned - once again not proof of censorship.
Mr Wong says that in a TNG episode the federation classified a plague that took place in a member world.This implies a certain level of censorship.
But in anyway the analogy is not correct.If the british government had put
the telephonic net and all its news agencies under censure or similar things there would have been other ways to get news,such as private TV channels,satellitar TV channels,private newspapers,and so on.In the federation the government could censore the subspace relay and its news agencies and people would not have alternate means of getting informations.
This really isnt the issue of this thread though - Does the Federation use mind control? - No[/quote]
The federation does not probably put people (or at least the majority of) on brainwashing chairs.
In the real world it would be absolutely necessary to make a society like the
federation work.
2.Jake worked for the federation news service which is similar to the BBC - a state owned news service, it doesnt mean its biased.
Yes but I suppose that the BBC is not the only news service in the UK.There are private newspapers and TV channels and so on.If the government started to use the BBC for propaganda the citizens could simply choose an other source.In the federation probably all news agencies are controlled by the state,thus leaving little choice.
3.Disease by and large is gone, yes there is still some but we dont have people dying of easily curable disease like we do now.
In western societies,at least those with national health services, people do not usually die of easily curable diseases.Thus there is not a great improvement over the current situation in developed countries.
4.Poverty - It was a non federation colony.
Dumped by the federation.Colonies can fail and if this happens they apparently will dump them.
But in effect apart from that poverty is not very common.It is highly likely that there is no poverty (intended as hunger and so on) on Earth,the others major worlds and the great majority of the colonies.
5.War is much rarer then it is today when theres always a war going on somewhere in the world, the Federation does have long periods of peace.
6.Prejudice is once again much rarer - saying dont trust Ferengi is simply like saying Western people like to have money - by and large its true.
Probably is like saying that humans like to have money.
C)True but in my country the Telecomms company used to be government owned - once again not proof of censorship.
Mr Wong says that in a TNG episode the federation classified a plague that took place in a member world.This implies a certain level of censorship.
But in anyway the analogy is not correct.If the british government had put
the telephonic net and all its news agencies under censure or similar things there would have been other ways to get news,such as private TV channels,satellitar TV channels,private newspapers,and so on.In the federation the government could censore the subspace relay and its news agencies and people would not have alternate means of getting informations.
This really isnt the issue of this thread though - Does the Federation use mind control? - No[/quote]
The federation does not probably put people (or at least the majority of) on brainwashing chairs.
In the real world it would be absolutely necessary to make a society like the
federation work.
1. Why do I have to prove this? YOU were the one who brought up the issue in the first place by saying that the Feds love history. That's not what I've been seeing. Or are you asking for proof that Philosophy and History are not the same? That being the only new point I brought up.
2. TEND is the key word.
3. You did change the word "disease" to the words "easily curable disease" that is not what was said, and that is a misappropriation of the dialogue. That statement and the evidence we gave you should be proof that the Federation is not all it's cracked up to be.
4. WATCH LEGACY, dumbass. Alternatively, you could read the ST encyclopedia on Turkana IV and Yar, Natasha.
5. I was responding to the Trekkie claim that the Federation has eliminated war, when clearly it has not. The Federation does NOT enjoy long periods of peace, you just ignore the wars that it fights. Note how many times Earth was attacked from Wolf 359 to First Contact. What about the unspoken wars around the badlands with the Maquis and the Cardassians? What about the Klingon, Dominion, and Borg wars?
6. I agree that we should be able to state facts, but saying that the Ferengi are not trustworthy is CLEARLY racist. When have the Ferengi said that they (as a race) were untrustworthy? Dialogue, please.
7. State-controlled media are more biased than others because the State has the right to pull their funding. This is a form of intimidation, even when it is not being used. Also, state-controlled media outlets are expected to censor some broadcasts during times of war. This is even true in a free-press situation.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
Patrick Ogaard wrote:The Federation's disregard for and contempt for its own, specifically Earth's, history and cultures is neatly summed up by Picard's attempt to bribe the ruler of the Ligonians with a priceless archeological artifact of old Earth history accompanied by an insincere declaration of admiration for that culture and, by comparing it to that of the Ligonians, Picard's insincere admiration for Ligonian culture. Later in the episode (Code of Honor), Picard remarks on the customs of the Ligonians, "... same kind of pompous strutting charades that endangered our own species a few centuries ago."
Exactly how does a starship captain end up with neatly portable archeological artifacts to be passed out as bribes? Something more modern I could understand, sponsored by Starfleet, but an artifact with actual historical significance, an artifact that had survived on Earth for millenia?
Perhaps Picard is more of a grave robber than an archeologist....
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
1. No you said the Federation doesnt report real history - I want proof of that.
Picard and Riker often talk about the past, Picards brother was devoted to the old ways etc etc, Sisko has tribal art which he attributes to his ancestors.
2.Agreed.
3.I think you are being to literal but I think disease is probably gone from Earth anyway - if they have any type of customs check in when you get to Earth.
4.I have but I dont remember specifics on the level you are giving - once again the encyclopedia aint worth jack unless its shown in canon.
I do remember one other episode where Yar talks about her past but I cant remember the episode or what was said.
5.During STTNGs run we have 0 wars to my knowledge accept for the Borg incident.
Earth hasnt been on a state of emergency in the last 100 years or so except for the Borg (and then later the dominon) so the wars that may have happened have be border wars but nothing major (Earth wise).
6."A contract is a contract is a contract, but only among Ferengi", "once you have their money never give it back" - The ferengi's supreme laws show they arent trust worthy (at least not with other species).
7.There is a level of bias I will admit but nothing on a level which would suggest the Federation being a facist state.
TheDarkling wrote:Patrick Ogaard: Picard is interested in histopry and often goes about digging up relics - is it hard to believe he has some earh relics?
Im not sure exactly what you are refering to however so could you expand with more info please.
This was in episode 4, Code of Honor. Picard has the Ligonian delegation in the conference room of the Enterprise and Data brings in a horse statuette. Picard goes on about how the culture of the Ligonians is similar to that of an ancient Earth culture they all admire, the 13th century Sung dynasty.
It is entirely normal for diplomatic delegations to pass out gifts, but ordinarily these gifts are not ancient, irreplaceable artifacts of historical and cultural significance. Picard says he is presenting the gift "on behalf of the Federation," but exactly how plausible is it that a society proud of its past - while respectfully disapproving of the bad parts - is going to do that sort of thing?
A recent historical parallel would be Japan. Embarassed by their perceived backwardness, the Japanese in the late 19th and early 20th centuries sold off historical armor, weapons, ceramics and pretty much anything else a Westerner with money and a taste for flashy or grotesque things from the Orient would buy. Later, as the Japanese rediscovered their heritage, massive buy-backs occurred, leading to the high prices for Japanese art objects in the last two decades or so.
The fact that Picard, a former archeologist and TOP history student didn't even know what a stock portfolio was should make things fairly obvious that the Federation has been systematically ommitting certain historical facts. That knowledge SHOULD have been useful just for dealing with other cultures, even if they were no longer used on Earth.
You think that I am being too literal? What do YOU interpret the quote as meaning? That disease is gone from EARTH? That might be, but that is not what the dialogue said. It was CLEARLY a propagandist claim.
As far as Turkana IV goes, everything on Turkana IV from the Encyclopedia is dealt with on screen. The episode was from TNG, and it was entitled "Legacy." I don't care that you do not remember it, it is true.
During TNG, there was at least one war between human and Cardassian settlers for the Badlands, and SEVERAL shooting incidents between the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and several more minor species. There was also a war with the Borg. TNG focused primarily on the exploration of new areas, so we would expect that the Enterprise did not participate in every conflict that was going on at the time. During DS9 there have been MAJOR wars with the Klingons, Cardassians, and Dominion. ST:FC showed us that there has also been a MAJOR battle with the Borg during that same time frame. That is not a long period of peace. There has also been a small civil war/coup attempt, and Earth has been fortified. Betazed was occuppied by Dominion troops. That is not peace.
The Ferengi clearly use that in the manner of a parable. No one is expected to follow their little sayings one hundred percent of the time. Remember when Quark laughed when the weapons dealer decided that maybe he should offer the Jem'Hadar a refund on the torpedo that was supposed to explode upon impact? That is an example of when he decided that it was okay to give someone's money back.
I never tried to argue that the Federation is a fascist state, I am saying that they are a socialist/communist state. Never confuse the two in the future.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
Cardassian and Romulan governments are facist police states - I think he meant the government setup and everything given that the bell riots were about sticking it to the man, showing the government they werent more importnat than individuals.
TheDarkling wrote:Cardassian and Romulan governments are facist police states - I think he meant the government setup and everything given that the bell riots were about sticking it to the man, showing the government they werent more importnat than individuals.
Entirely possible, but the Cardassian government doesn't seem that bad to me (until the Dominion took over).
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
1.Data knows about that part of history nell even Quark knows about humans past with regards to economy, the Bell riots were a dark time in history and they werent blacked out.
2.I interpret the quote meaning that disease is almost gone ie it doesnt kill millions each year just one or two cases on earth.
3.I didnt see it - you remember where about in the episode it was?
4.The badlands incident wasnt a war between the Federatin and anyone.
I mentioned the Borg and I said TNG time frame - you havent opposed that viewpoint just skillfully avoided it.
5.Breaking a contract between Feregi is a HUGE deal but breaking deals with no Feregi isnt.
He was showing that weapons dealer that he (the weapons dealer) sometimes wasnt completely honest - which of course Quark wasnt at the time because he was lying about federation taxes etc.
No the issue here is the federation evil and does it use mind control to keep the population in line.
Who cares if it has socialist leanings that is a non issue.
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:How can you eliminate poverty? If 99% of people may 100 million a year and 1% make 90 million, that 1% is living in poverty.
You make sure that everyone receives equal resources by becoming a communist state.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
