Federation Post-Endgame weapons

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Patrick Ogaard
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

TheDarkling wrote:The cubes regular shields should have protected them from transport however the crew beams over when they first try to rescue Picard - Geordi or the Chief say they have raised an em field that is blocking the transporter.

I suppose the point could be made that they didnt mean shields to be shut down but afterwards Data simply fires thrusters and they escape (of course he may have raised the shields without saying it)

The borgs shields seem to be hull hugging (seen when the E-D uses the deflector weapon) yet this em field was far and away from the Borgs hull, another indication that there were two shields/fields.

Another incident I remember is in the DS9 episode A time to Stand - the crew gets trapped inside the shield of a Supply base (they are in a stolen Jem Hadar ship) and they cant escape until the generator is destroyed.

Good points. Basically, the problem is that the episodes with the Borg are open to interpretation, especially due to the fact that previously canon rules of how things work are routinely thrown overboard if they interfere with the way a writer wants a plot to go. Your interpretation of the scenes with the Borg cube also fit the observed events. It just seems to me that the methods used by the Borg are needlessly complex, even for villains in the ST universe.

When Locutus came along it is quite possible that he was subconsciously giving the Enterprise crew a way in by following typical Starfleet methods and deploying a shield bubble. The shuttlecraft trick would likely not have worked against a hull hugging shield system. With the defensive shields directly on top of the structural integrity field and the hull, the shuttlecraft would have had to physically touch the cube, hull to hull. Any movement on the part of the cube would have likely destroyed the shuttlecraft. The trick of beaming over to the cube just before the shuttlecraft was destroyed would hardly have worked if the shuttlecraft first had to chug along to latch onto the cube's hull.

A more reasonable action on the part of the Enterprise crew in that particular situation would have immediately destroyed the cube. Locutus would have also been destroyed, but better dead than Borg according to Picard. (It also seems incredible that not one of those bereaved by the actions of Locutus, and there must have been tens of thousands who lost friends and family members, attempted to take action against the man who, willingly or not, became a collaborator and traitor. It would have been excellent fodder for an episode or three.)

Basically, several shuttlecraft would have penetrated the blocking field or shield and immediately beamed over one or two torpedoes each. Immediately after being beamed over, the torpedoes would have been set off and gutted the cube before effective countermeasures could be implemented.

On the Jem'Hadar incident: My only immediate solution to that dilemma would be to note that the fields employed by navigational deflectors do not appear to be affected by field slipping. As a stationary base vulnerable to intentional and accidental collisions, the base might well have been equipped with a fairly powerful omnidirectional navigational deflector system. Since the base did not need to generate warp fields or impulse drive fields, the base would have had power to spare if it was equipped with something like the power systems of a battle-damaged Jem'Hadar cruiser. That is, of course, a large pile of conjecture on my part.
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Post by SCVN 2812 »

There is one small flaw in the theory that the transphasic torpedo merely punches through the hull of the Borg cube by it's own kinetic force and the weakness of Borg construction materials alone.

In First Contact, multiple photon torpedos are unloaded on the Borg cube- with it's shields down and they would have to be down otherwise the effects that follow wouldn't be possible, the photon torpedos did......drum roll please......not penetrate through the hull? Instead they left noticeable, but small craters in the Cube's hull. This is consistent with the effects of photon torpedos striking the Cube in the Enterprise-D's first encounter with the Borg and causing craters (which quickly began regenerating btw). Now the craters and phaser damage in First Contact is considerably less than it was in the original encounter but more than it was in Wolf 359 where they were visibly unable to even bring down the shields (from the lack of physical damage being done to the Cube) but then again Picard was commanding it giving the Borg access to all his knowledge of technology and tactics. It seems from the first contact to First Contact (the movie) the Borg were able to assimilate stronger hull materials, not unlikely since that is what the Borg do- assimilate.

So if torpedos were never able to pierce the Borg's hull to begin with, why all of the sudden would they be able to now unless transphasic torpedos put the phase in transphasic (cheap joke that will not appreciated and only result in spontaneous, unneccessary and uncreative insults).
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

SCVN 2812 wrote:There is one small flaw in the theory that the transphasic torpedo merely punches through the hull of the Borg cube by it's own kinetic force and the weakness of Borg construction materials alone.

In First Contact, multiple photon torpedos are unloaded on the Borg cube- with it's shields down and they would have to be down otherwise the effects that follow wouldn't be possible, the photon torpedos did......drum roll please......not penetrate through the hull? Instead they left noticeable, but small craters in the Cube's hull. This is consistent with the effects of photon torpedos striking the Cube in the Enterprise-D's first encounter with the Borg and causing craters (which quickly began regenerating btw). Now the craters and phaser damage in First Contact is considerably less than it was in the original encounter but more than it was in Wolf 359 where they were visibly unable to even bring down the shields (from the lack of physical damage being done to the Cube) but then again Picard was commanding it giving the Borg access to all his knowledge of technology and tactics. It seems from the first contact to First Contact (the movie) the Borg were able to assimilate stronger hull materials, not unlikely since that is what the Borg do- assimilate.

So if torpedos were never able to pierce the Borg's hull to begin with, why all of the sudden would they be able to now unless transphasic torpedos put the phase in transphasic (cheap joke that will not appreciated and only result in spontaneous, unneccessary and uncreative insults).

Essentially, I'd have to chalk it up to the same thing as always in recent Trek: adapting tech to just barely beat the current threat forces after getting a horribly bloodied nose trying to use the tech that had been adapted to just barely beat the previous threat forces.

It works like this, to use another threat force from Voyager as an example: initially, the weapons of Voyager were ludicrously ineffective against the monotanium hull plating of Hirogen hunter ships. Shortly thereafter, the weapons of Voyager, without becoming noticeably more effective against other threat forces, became just adequate to deal effectively with monotanium armor.

One relatively simple explanation for the initially inadequate penetration effects of torpedoes as used by Starfleet would the the following: the torpedoes were programmed with standard detonation sequences for starship combat. Since threat vessels are ordinarily protected by shields, and normal torpedoes are incapable of simply pushing through shields, standard programming for a torpedo would be to detonate immediately upon impact with a shield or other significant obstruction.A threat vessel without shields would ordinarily be considered to have sustained massive structural damage in the process of having its shields battered down, so that a torpedo explosion on the outer hull of a threat vessel could be considered entirely sufficient.

Borg vessels, however, fall outside of the usual range of threat vessel capabilities, as large cubes are capable of sustaining considerable structural damage without suffering warp core breaches or explosive decompression of the commissary. Similarly, the monotanium plating of Hirogen vessels would be likely to make the vessels relatively resistant to torpedo explosions on their hull surfaces. So what do we do if we want to make our torpedoes work against armor? The same thing as we do with 20th-21st warship artillery shells and aircraft bombs designed to penetrate armor before exploding inside the target: set a delay in the fuse/detonator system. At its simplest, base-fusing a bomb or shell by placing a simple fuse in the base of the shell or bomb instead of the nose is an answer when ocupled with a reinforced, armor-piercing nose. A more versatile answer used in modern bunker busting bombs is the following: keep the armor-piercing reinforced nose and replace the simple (and unreliable) base fuse with a system of sensors that fire the detonator as soon as pre-selected conditions are met.

So how does one make a photon torpedo do all that? Here's how:

1. Equip the photon torpedo with high-powered standard shields of very short duration, allowing the torpedo to employ shield slipping to penetrate the threat vessel's protective shields, so long as the shields are based on the ST universe standard of flickering or frequency-based shields.

2. Photon torpedoes have navigational deflectors, at least according to the cutaway view in the DS9 tech manual. Logically, torps would have to possess such deflectors, as otherwise long-range probes using the torp hardware would be quickly destroyed by dust impacts, and warships could protect themselves against torps in combat by spraying patterns of sand in the direction of likely torpedo approaches. Also, modified torpedoes have displayed the ability to penetrate planetary atmospheres and actually burrow deeply into rocky planetary crusts before detonating.

3. Navigational deflectors can be modified into high-powered directional beam weapons, which would be the simplest method of adapting a torpedo to burrowing through rock or, set to greater intensity and shorter duration, punching through armor. Used against armor, the best choice would be to set the overload of the deflector to occur as late as possible, reducing the possible reaction time of the target's structural integrity fields.

4. Using the overloaded deflector the same way a battleship's armor-piercing cannon shell uses its reinforced steel tip, the torpedo pushes through the hull plating and into the target vessel. The torpedo then follows its detonation programming, pushing as far into the target vessel as necessary to be reasonably sure of wiping out vital systems by exploding in flashy, antimatter-based pyrotechnics.

It is a relatively simple adaptation of mostly canon treknology -- with shield slipping being my personal interpretation of certain shield interaction effects shown in various episodes -- and real world military principles.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

One little correction to my post above: the rock-burrowing torps were actually probes packed inside torpedo casings, but I believe that does not invalidate the point as such.
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Post by Mr Bean »

But agian showing the fun problems of Treky Shielding but to quote La Forge
"Better than nothing"

What we are seeing here is slowy the dissaperance of trekkly babble and the begining of what looks like acutal Good Common Military Sense
How long it will last?
Unknow
But stick around :D
Maybe the Federation might get a clue :D

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Post by THEHOOLIGANJEDI »

SCVN 2812 wrote:If you watch closely there is a delay between the torpedo "hitting" the Cube and the explosion that follows, during this time the torpedo is no longer visible. The explosion that follows erupts out of the hull and not on the hull.

This is one case where the producers aren't full of crap, it is supported by visual evidence.

SirNitram, there is no evidence that the transphasic torpedo is just an anti-Borg weapon and in fact there is plenty of evidence that it should be work against other races because of the way it works.

And Kim's ship was a Nova-class, and it's not that unbelievable that he would attack two larger Klingon vessels because he was trying to buy time for Janeway to escape.
How do you know it was a Nova, there were differences in the design (i.e. the deflector) but that could mean itwas a refit, but I doubt it was a Nova what proof do you have?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Why would the Borg ship's shields have had to be down in ST:FC? ST shields do not stop all of the energy that strikes them. There are many instances of ST ships taking serious physical damage (including hull breaches and systems failures) while their shields have still been partially functional. The cube might have still had somewhat functional shields at that time.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Screen shots please.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Screen shots please.
Who are you talking to? Do you want me to get screenshots of physically damaged Federation ships with their shields intact? Or do you want him to get screen shots of the damage that the Borg cube may or may not have sustained? My statement justifies the damage that the cube took without the qualifying statement that the cube's shields were down.
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Post by SirNitram »

If a Cube can be crippled to the point of internal power grid going to hell with it's shields up, it is a truly pathetic design.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

I was talking to SCVN
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Post by TheDarkling »

If you remember in FC just before Picard tells them where to fire he hears the Borg - the book of the film (grr non-canon) puts this down to him hearing where a weakness in the Borg shields was.

However since the books are non-canon it could also be viewed differently.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

From the movie, I think it is clear that Picard is remembering an area where critical systems to a Borg cube are located relatively close to the surface, and he was deliberately selecting that area of the ship to target in the hopes that the collective firepower of the armada would be able to knock the cube out of action, which it did.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Remembering - then why the voice?, it could be argued either way.
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Post by SirNitram »

TheDarkling wrote:Remembering - then why the voice?, it could be argued either way.
It's called Internal Monologue.
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Post by TheDarkling »

The borg voice thing happen when he senses the Borg though - it does seem to be communication of some kind.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Okay, so he was hearing about a critical system that was near to the surface. I don't think it can really be argued that it was a spot where the shields were very weak. Aren't Federation sensors good enough to spot weaknesses in shields?
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Post by Stravo »

I believe that in the novelization it is a part of the ship that the Collective deemed heavily damaged and were diverting drones to repair the area, so Picard just focussed on that part since he knew they were hurt there.

On the point of the shields/no shields issue...I think it is pretty clear that the Borg ship was shieldless. It had been fighting for days agains the Federation fleet, by the time it reached earth, they were damaged and teh canera focusses on many strikes that CLEARLY damage the hull, fireballs and debris oh my! There is no such effect on ANY other ST vessel when shields are up....ST VI, the shields failed and what happened on the VERY next shot, the torpedoe rips through the saucer section, this did not happen UNTIL the shields failed.

I think its pretty clear and obvious that the Borg cube's shields were down.
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Post by TheDarkling »

The thing is though people have argued here that the Borgs hull is so weak that torps should go all the way in without being impeded however if the shields were down this indicates that Borg hulls arent as weak as we previously thought - meaning that the transphasic torp was more than just a shield bypasser.
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Post by SCVN 2812 »

The Borg's shields would have to be down otherwise there would be no significant physical damage done by the torpedos. It's just simply the way the Star Trek universe works, astonishingly enough as their name suggests, shields shield a ship from hull damage as long as the shield remains intact. When shields go down or are bypassed hull damage occurs.

Considering the fact that Earth and Romulans were able to fight an interstellar war with primative by 24th century warp drives, Romulan space and Earth and therefore the neutral zone and Earth cannot be that far away from each other, the battle probably had been going on for several hours not days.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

So, how is it that there are so many examples of hull breaches and other serious damage to ships even while their shields are up? How is it that consoles explode when shields are up? These problems represent serious physical damage to a starship. ST shields are not like SW shields. They do not have to be completely knocked down in order to allow the ship to take some damage. There are NUMEROUS examples of ships with shields up taking significant damage from weapons fire. Why would the Borg be any different?

I have NO idea why you claim that the battle had only been going on for only several hours. The Romulan/Federation neutral zone is a considerable distance from Earth, and it would have required a long engagement for a Borg cube to have battled very far into Federation territory.
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Post by TheDarkling »

3 Hours is the only canon estimate but it could have been longer - I doubt days however.

Earth and Romulan space are close due to the early warp wars.

Could you give some examples of this hull takes damage while shields are up - just so I know what we are talking about.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

TheDarkling wrote:3 Hours is the only canon estimate but it could have been longer - I doubt days however.

Earth and Romulan space are close due to the early warp wars.

Could you give some examples of this hull takes damage while shields are up - just so I know what we are talking about.
Three hours seems to be somewhat reasonable, but I don't think warp drives have improved that greatly since TOS.

In any case, Yesterday's Enterprise is an example of when the shields were up but the ship was taking damage.
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Post by TheDarkling »

They didnt take hull damage - just had stuff exploding due to power overloads and the like.

I think if you hit a SF shield with too much energy at once the excess energy jumps to the other systems thus caused overloads.

Otherwise all that should happen is the hull getting toasted - no overloading unless that section is hit.

I think warp 9 in TOS equals Warp 6 in TNG but what system Enterprise runs on God only knows.

If it runs on TOS (which it should really) then warp 5 is the top current speed - we could actually do calcs on it, isnt there a reference about how long it takes to get to Neptune at warp 5?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Oh, I'm sorry. The "hull breaches" that Riker and the others were referring to were caused by systems overloads within the ship itself. I also did not realize that the tactical and navigation stations were tied in such a way to the shields that if the shields overloaded the CONSOLES would explode. Incidentally, these breaches only occur when the ship's shields have been weakened but not completely knocked out. For instance, there are instances where crewmembers report the shields being at between fifty and eighty percent and other people (or the same one) reporting hull breaches. I should also mention that in "Paradise Lost" Dax reported that the ablative armor on the Defiant was holding WHILE THE SHIELDS WERE STILL MARGINALLY FUNCTIONAL! Why the HELL would she have had to say that if the shields were, as you claim, absorbing all of the physical damage? Are there electrical systems on the Defiant that are overloading with enough power to destroy the ablative armor (potentially)?
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