Believing Yourself a Werewolf

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-02-08 10:53pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Solution: Stake her. If she dies, it means she was wrong, because you stake vampires to kill them, not werewolves.

And this is helping her how? Honestly, I want to help her and ask how the psych community should treat people like her. Obviously, I tried logic for her. My roomate even got books from the public library about the legends about werewolves and vampires and she basically stated the writers did not known what they are talking about. Some examples talk about mold on rye grain causing hallucination for example.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2004-02-08 11:22pm

This situation is sounding worse and worse. There's obviously something seriously wrong with her, and not the type a little bit of sitting down and talking can do. Forget the shrinks. She's far beyond logic and reason, and needs medical treatment before she does something to herself or her kids, especially that poor two-year-old who himself could probably end up with serious problems from malnourishment and/or a psychotic mother with no grip on reality.

I guess the people who are making the jokes haven't had any friends who were seriously mentally ill. I had a friend who became schizophrenic. He had been a smart, dorky, nice guy, but then his personality shifted radically. While before he was the quiet guy who listened to everything and then made a thought-provoking comment, afterwards he would scream that he was chocolate and throw himself against a wall, or even more bizarre things. His sudden personality changes and mood swings were very frightening. I haven't heard from him in a couple years; he seemed to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. I hope he's alright, wherever he is.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-08 11:29pm

List smart asses, Kitsune is asking a serious question. If you want to make jokes go elsewhere.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-09 07:41am

Kitsune wrote: I am concerned that the belief that she is a Werewolf is a sign of problems

Oh, sure, it's definitely a sign of problems - I think the question here (well, one of 'em) is whether the problems make her an unfit mother.

but her unwillingness to go somewhere else when we had no power, she did miss alot of doctors appointments, and she would stay awake all night and not get her two year old on a normal schedule (Cause of many missed appointments) were the real problems although I think they were all tied together.

[Devil's Advocate Mode] But with the power out keeping a normal schedule is very difficult, and the stress of the unusual situation no doubt contributed to this. What is she like under normal, unstressed circumstances?[/DAM]

(Has anyone here ever had experience with "normal, unstressed circumstances"? If you have, please tell me what that was like)

Other items was that we started by sharing meals when she first moved in but she later decided that she did not want to do that. She started feed the children the 9 oz TV dinners, tiny cans of potted meat, and other small meals which were not enough. A direct effect was her 12 years old autistic always seemed to be begging for food whenever my roomate and i cooked food.

Problem is, there's no law that says you have to feed your kids an ideal diet. If the food is unspoiled and the kids are showing no overt signs of malnutrition, dietary deficiences, starvation, or stunted growth the authorities will not interfere - even if they're living on pizza and twinkies. The food begging behavior in a normal child would be indicative of problems, but since the child is autistic it's all too easy to explain the behavior away as part of his disorder (which is riduculous - you don't have to be normal in order to feel hunger or have survival drives)

Another specific example of what seems to be a very 'confused personailty' (Dont know another term) was when we helped her move into our place, she had basically nothing packed and it was confused move. When she moved out, she seemed to have no logical way she was packing to move and seemed to be scrambling.

Again, disorganization is not enough of a disorder to get social services to take action.

Clearly, this gal is NOT quite "normal", even using a broad definition of that term. She sounds like a "borderline personality disorder", but diagnosis-at-distance is risky at best, and the classification is a catch-all trash bin anyhow. It basically means someone who is functional in society (can feed themselves, dress appropriately - usually, hold down a job, pay the rent, etc.) but not of normal mental status. There is also some debate as to whether some of these folks have Asperger's syndrome, which is related to autism.

Yes, I worry for the children, too, but while she may be a chaotic, erratic parent she may not be bad enough under the present rules for social services to intervene. I don't have any good answers for you. There are times when outside parties can help, but such people have to be nearby (neighbors, friends, etc.) and there's only so much they can do. You took in these folks for six months, yes? That's more than most people would do or tolerate.

If you know where they went you could try to contact social services in that location with your concerns. Of course, if that happens she might just pick up and move again.

I had a roommate in college who was a "borderline" - but a highly functional one. Always was and always will be a very strange person, but with the help of some good psychiatrists became a funtional member of society. So yes, there is hope. The disorder is not curable, and there are few, if any, medications that really help the situation. What needs to be taught are coping and social skills. But in the case of my roommate, we're talking about someone who got tired of sleeping in Chicago's Union Station and subway platforms and got motivated to get a better life. The affected person has to see there is a problem and want to improve the situation. Sometimes, they have to hit rock bottom before that happens.

Or the lady could just be psycho.

Or on drugs.

Or there could be something else going on.

This is not a situation with an easy answer.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-02-09 11:19am

IMHO, you can't reason with her. She probably needs to be medicated and have a long treatement. She'll have to be conditioned to not believe she's a werewolf. She needs to be told what to believe and have that reinforced over a long period. She won't really understand why that's the most rational thing, but she'll at least understand that's what she's supposed to believe.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-02-09 08:56pm

Broomstick wrote: This is not a situation with an easy answer.

Yes, I realize this and I have no direct contact with her and there is little IO can do. The situation just still bothers me.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-09 08:58pm

You know, it's just really creeping me out how so many here are essentially saying "Just drug her up".

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-09 11:16pm

Kitsune wrote:
Broomstick wrote: This is not a situation with an easy answer.
Yes, I realize this and I have no direct contact with her and there is little IO can do. The situation just still bothers me.

If you think there's a real danger, call the authorities.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-09 11:21pm

I agree with Storm. The woman is obviously suffering from some form of mental illness.

Lt. Dan · Post by **Lt. Dan** » 2004-02-10 12:30am

Broomstick wrote:You know, it's just really creeping me out how so many here are essentially saying "Just drug her up".

I have to agree. What about all those who couldn't be medicated because of their time? Would they deem Hannibal crazy? If druged, would he have invaded Rome? Mozart was a bit of a nut, would he have written his master pieces?

Any-hoo, to those who think that they can show them logic, let me tell you a story I heard:

There once was an older man who, for some strange reason, woke up one morning and decided that he was dead. Nothing that his family did convinced him otherwise. In his eyes, he was dead as a door nail. Then, his son had a briliant idea. Dead people don't bleed. One day, he showed him a book on human anamity(?) and as soon as his father understood this, he ask for his fathers hand and jabed it with a needle.
"See! Your bleeding! What do you have to say about that?!
The father, was taken back a bit and the replied, "Your book is wrong, I'm bleeding and I'm dead."

The moral of the story: You can't always reason with some people.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend but sometimes, you have to just enjoy them no matter what.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-10 12:54am

That's all well and good, but have a major set of screws loose in the head and safely raising a child are not compatible.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-10 06:15am

Except that we're hearing all this second hand, aren't we? And even Kitsune, who has seen it first hand, is no longer in contact with her. Ya'll are practicing diagnosis at a distance (come to think of it, so did I) which is an interesting intellectual excercise but is flawed as a clinical technique.

Is this woman mentally ill? How mentally ill? Is the stress of raising and autistic child on her own contributing?

There are several problems with the knee-jerk "medicate her" approach. First and foremost - not every mental problem can be helped by medication. We don't have medication for every disorder. And even when we do, they don't work on everyone. In fact, some people can be made worse by it.

Another problem is the matter of thought control. In our society, at least in theory, you're allowed to be eccentric as long as no one gets hurt. Problem is, there isn't a sharp dividing line, no definitive test where one score is "merely odd" and another is "psychotic". So be careful where you draw the line, lest one day you find yourself on the wrong side of it.

We have, arguably, two problems here. One, this chick thinks she's a werewolf. Two, she might be neglecting her children. Are they, in fact, related? If a person is convinced they're a werewolf but nonetheless holds down a job, pays the bills, etc are they really impaired? Really weird, perhaps, but does the holding of an strange set of beliefs really justify forcing medication one someone?

On the other hand, you don't have to believe you're a werewolf to be a bad parent.

So... was she neglectful before acquiring this belief system? Because if the two aren't connected, if she was a scatterbrained, half-assed parent before the lycanthropy set in, then forcing drugs down her throat or otherwise removing the delusion will NOT make her a better parent! In fact, if there are severe enough drug side effects, she may even become a worse parent!

If the problem is bad parenting skills the lycanthropy may to some degree be irrelevant. in fact, you might even use the delusion to get her to be a better parent, given how wolves are quite devoted to their young. I realize that the idea of leaving a delusion in place, or even using it for another end, is disturbing to people, but then drugging someone to change their thought processes because society doesn't approve is pretty creepy, too.

First priority, from a societal viewpoint, should be the safety and welfare of the children. Are they being harmed? Odd belief systems of the parents in and of themselves are not justification or proof of harm. The questions that need to be asked are things like are the children adequately fed? Are the appropriately clothed? Are they being educated? Do they get required medical care? That's the test, not whether or not mama thinks she's a sorceress or a werewolf or the reincarnation of Queen Isabella or a born-again Christian or a member of a particular political party or a convincted felon.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-02-10 10:26am

Broomstick wrote: interesting intellectual excercise but is flawed as a clinical technique.

It’s only an intellectual exercise; we're not a clinic. At most we're giving Kitsune advice.

We don't have medication for every disorder. And even when we do, they don't work on everyone. In fact, some people can be made worse by it.

Conversely, the existence of conditions that can't be treated with medication doesn't mean this case can't be treated.

We're not diagnosing her. Nobody here is a doctor and can prescribe medication (that I know of). IMHO, she needs professional help and that may require medication.

Its not like she woke up following the full moon with hairy arms and made some kind of logical decision that she must be a werewolf. Believing you're a werewolf is seriously messed up; its completely and utterly irrational, its indicitive of a serious problem. If you suspect a serious problem you act on that knowledge. For example, if you think you have cancer you act on it, you get the appropriate tests. You don't assume the lump is just 'nothing' and will probably clear up, even though it could be nothing.

Problem is, there isn't a sharp dividing line, no definitive test where one score is "merely odd"

The existence of a "grey area" doesn't mean this case is a grey area.

IMHO, believing you're a werewolf isn't in a grey area. It’s completely irrational and shows a separation from reality.

First priority, from a societal viewpoint, should be the safety and welfare of the children.

'Safety' is a preventative thing. It’s pre-emptive action against a danger, something that hasn't happened yet. For the safety of the children she should seek professional help.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-10 12:46pm

Broomstick wrote:Except that we're hearing all this second hand, aren't we? And even Kitsune, who has seen it first hand, is no longer in contact with her. Ya'll are practicing diagnosis at a distance (come to think of it, so did I) which is an interesting intellectual excercise but is flawed as a clinical technique.

Kitsune is asking for advice, not online therapists and most of us are givin advice. None of us are making a clinical diagnosis so what does it matter?

Broomstick wrote:Is this woman mentally ill? How mentally ill? Is the stress of raising and autistic child on her own contributing?

She's definitely mentally ill as anyone can see. One does not have delusions like that with out having serious problems that need to be worked out.

Broomstick wrote:Another problem is the matter of thought control. In our society, at least in theory, you're allowed to be eccentric as long as no one gets hurt. Problem is, there isn't a sharp dividing line, no definitive test where one score is "merely odd" and another is "psychotic". So be careful where you draw the line, lest one day you find yourself on the wrong side of it.

That's a nice slipper slope you've constructed there. The problem is it's total BS.

This woman has serious problems, not merely eccentricties. Any responsible friend would encourage some with delusion like that to get help. Kitsune isn't forcing her to go.

And the fact is she's also got a kid. Say what ever bullshit you like, a severly delusional person and children is always a bad combination. How many mothers have killed their kids 'exorcising' them? This werewolf lady is likely to be as dangerous.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-10 01:00pm

Stormbringer wrote:And the fact is she's also got a kid. Say what ever bullshit you like, a severly delusional person and children is always a bad combination. How many mothers have killed their kids 'exorcising' them? This werewolf lady is likely to be as dangerous.

It couldn't hurt to present her with arguments demonstrating how her werewolf delusion doesn't make any sense (although I note with some cynicism that no one urges religious people to seek help), but how would this silly "werewolf" belief cause her to hurt her own child?

The original post asked:

I knew a woman for a while who believed she was a Werewolf. I knew her before this and I think she was convinced by a boyfriend of hers. I believe she specifically needed mental help. I know that many people on this group who feel that Psycholgy is a pseudo-science and while I do not completely agree, I believe at least a strong case can be made for that. If we are to consider psycologists uselss, what do we do for people like her?

It looks to me like the problem resolved itself (she said "for a while", which implies that it's over). But nevertheless, the aim of the post seemed to be asking whether psychology is useless, in an attempt to refute the claims made that psychology has thus far failed in its endeavour to conduct itself with scientific rigour. The problem is that one does not lead to the other; the fact that psychology is still dealing with a severe legacy of pseudoscientific practices does not mean it must be totally useless. A long heartfelt talk with a trusted friend is not a form of science either, but it's anything but useless for someone struggling with depression.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-02-10 01:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:And the fact is she's also got a kid. Say what ever bullshit you like, a severly delusional person and children is always a bad combination. How many mothers have killed their kids 'exorcising' them? This werewolf lady is likely to be as dangerous.
It couldn't hurt to present her with arguments demonstrating how her werewolf delusion doesn't make any sense (although I note with some cynicism that no one urges religious people to seek help), but how would this silly "werewolf" belief cause her to hurt her own child?

Delusional people do stupid things, it wouldn't necessarily be because of the werewolf thing but her general delusional state. But then again if she convinces her self she is, it's entirely possible that she could attack people.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-02-10 04:07pm

Delusional People do not always mean to harm someone they love....

That still doesn't excuse my sister's ex-hubbie grabbing her by the throat and nearly choking her ... or getting into an arguement with one of his hullucinations and firing a pistol at 'him' (lucky my sister and her son were not on the same floor at the time) ... or having one of his delusions dare him to drive his 4-W drive Ford over the side of a hill and total his truck.

Each time, he could have caused serious injury to my sister or their children without meaning to.

So forgive me if I fear what a 'werewolf' could do to her child.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-02-10 09:29pm

It depends on what she believes, exactly. If she thinks she loses control and turns into a werewolf at night on a full moon but is normal the rest of the time, then it's not something that she believes she can consciously observe or participate in anyway, so what's she going to do based on this belief? It's not like she thinks there's demons running around her house or evil spirits possessing her child.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-11 06:33am

Zoink wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
We don't have medication for every disorder. And even when we do, they don't work on everyone. In fact, some people can be made worse by it.
Conversely, the existence of conditions that can't be treated with medication doesn't mean this case can't be treated.

We're not diagnosing her. Nobody here is a doctor and can prescribe medication (that I know of). IMHO, she needs professional help and that may require medication.
As soon as you say "I think she's mentally ill and may require medication" you ARE diagnosing her condition. Now, we can all sit around and say we're not medical professionals and this is all in "fun", but that doesn't change that yes, we ARE judgeing this woman and we ARE attempting armchair diagnosis.

Will it have any effect in the real world? Unlikely. But at least be aware of what you are doing.

If you suspect a serious problem you act on that knowledge. For example, if you think you have cancer you act on it, you get the appropriate tests. You don't assume the lump is just 'nothing' and will probably clear up, even though it could be nothing.
As a matter of fact, some people do just ignore the problem and pretend it will go away. I know a man who's dying now and will be fortunate to see spring because, even though he had trouble swallowing, he never went to a doctor to see what was wrong - attributed it to food poisoning, colds, heart burn, what have you until it got to the point he couldn't even swallow water, he collapsed, was taken to the hospital, and finally confronted with yes, you have cancer. Even then, he resisted the diagnosis until confronted with full-color pictures of the interior of his esophagus with a really, really ugly tumor in it. Even then, he shows me the picture and says "Is this really cancer?" Delusional? Yes, to some extent. Dangerous? Only to himself.

IMHO, believing you're a werewolf isn't in a grey area. It’s completely irrational and shows a separation from reality.
So does denying you have cancer, even when confronted with the evidence, like not being able to swallow even your own saliva. So, this person I know - should he have been incarcerated in the hospital against his will, medicated against his will, forced to submit to surgery against his will? This question actually came up. Yes, he IS delusional in that area of his life - but in every other respect in his life he is NOT delusional and NOT incompetant.

First priority, from a societal viewpoint, should be the safety and welfare of the children.
'Safety' is a preventative thing. It’s pre-emptive action against a danger, something that hasn't happened yet. For the safety of the children she should seek professional help.

She will not seek help unless she acknowledges there is a problem. If you commit her against her will she will only resist.

The question becomes, is her delusion dangerous? Not all delusions are. For instance, if a person believed they were adopted, or the offspring of someone other than their legal father, that might be delusional but it would be unlikely to be dangerous. Just because a person is mentally ill - even severely so - does not automatically make them a threat.

So... what does "believing herself to be a werewolf" really involve? The idea she's a wolf trapped in a woman's body? The idea she is slowly turning into a wolf? Does she believe she changes at the full moon or not? Does she think she needs a distemper shot and heartworm medicine?

Is she able to hold down a job? Feed herself and her children? Remember to dress before going outside? Can she drive safely? Is she capable of distinguishing right from wrong and obeying the law? These are all empircal tests of her ability to function as an independent person. Does she show any indications of violence? If she believes she's a werewolf and is growing fur, maybe that's tolerable, but not if she's biting people. Is she? Or isn't she?

A LOT of people are walking around with nutty ideas - they're absolutely convinced they're descended from extra-terrestrials, or they're the reincarnation of King Arthur or Maid Marian, or they're half elf, or they're a "warrior" because they studied karate for two years and made green belt, or they can engage in telepathy with cats... There are folks who are so convinced they are vampires they get cosmetic dentistry to acquire fangs, don't go out in the daytime, and sleep in coffins. Arguably, all delusional ideas. The question in my mind is, are they dangerous?. Does the ET guy just dress up in metallic silver jumpsuits on the weekend and work on building a "spaceship" in his garage, or does he found a cult and lead his followers to ritual suicide in order to "ride" the Hale-Bopp comet? Does "King Arthur" try to live up to the ideals of Camelot, or does he swing an actual sword at people and cut them up? Do the vampires go around biting people on the neck, or do they just stick to "willing victims" in their own community?

It's not enough to say "the woman thinks she's a werewolf, she's nuts, take her kids away and drug her up so she doesn't bother us anymore". Prove that her beliefs make her dangerous. Or, since our knowledge of her is limited, discuss where you would draw the line on such delusional beliefs. How delusion is too delusional? When can we let someone be 'crazy but harmless" vs. involuntary incarceration and treatment?

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-02-12 10:46pm

Darth Wong wrote: It couldn't hurt to present her with arguments demonstrating how her werewolf delusion doesn't make any sense (although I note with some cynicism that no one urges religious people to seek help), but how would this silly "werewolf" belief cause her to hurt her own child?

One specific example, she eats raw meat and I think she has fed the child raw meat because she thinks the kid a wolf baby.

I did try logical arguments many times about the subject.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-12 10:48pm

Raw meat isn't automatically dangerous, but if that's all she's feeding the baby, or if she feeds it a lot of raw meat, that baby is probably going to die eventually.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2004-02-13 07:22am

Let's look at the "evidence" presented by Kitsune;

1) she held up a fist and asked "Does this look something like a paw" - possible sign of delusional thinking.
2) She has always had psych flaws such as imaginary illnesses - indicates a highly suggestible personality. Would be interesting to know what diseases she imagined having, if they just happened to be diseases she heard about near the time of "onset", and so forth.
3) She does have a severely autistic son - moot point. Although autistic people frequently having autistic relatives, or relatives with Asperger's or isolated autistic traits, many do not. We don't know what causes autism, so I don't think this is relevant to a discussion of WolfWoman's problems.
4) She started going online and found a group of people who believed that they were werewolves - that could be a role-playing game. I had to know more about the actual sites involved.
5) she talked about being a leader of her wolfpack online - Again, it could be role-playing.
6) she says she is a vampiric werewolf - I have never heard of that before and I have no idea what that means.
7) She believes she can make tiny changes to her body, make herself more hairy and stuff like that - delusional thinking
8) Other items is that she talked about her ex-husband raping and attempting to rape her boyfriend. I do not believe her husband was bi-sexual either. - If that actually happened, then she's not delusional. If it didn't, then it's more delusional thinking.
9) She is also convinced the [autistic] kid knows sign language even though I went on the web to learn some 'command' signs (basically sit, stop, calm down, stuff like that, and the child makes no response to them) - I know a lot of normal 12 year olds who don't respond to commands, either. There could be a lot explanations, from the kid being only intermittly responsive to Sign, only responding to particular people, to more delusional thinking on the part of the mother.
10) She also has a two year old son from her boyfriend who appears to be for the most part normal. She seems to attempting to convince the child that he is a werewolf. - that's a little odd, yes. Harmful? Good question. Need more information.
11) she had a babysitting job with a next door neighbor....She had a cleaning job at a neighbors and we told her it would be best to stay home with the children - not necessarially. Having even a part-time job can help stabilize a problem personality since it imposes a schedule on the person's time and activities and forces contact with reality. Given the question about her fitness to be a mother I'd probably direct her to clearning jobs more than babysitting. I really wish we'd give up on this myth that it is ALWAYS better for mom to be at home with the kids 24/7.
12) She left ... virtually all of her medical documentation on the children - sloppy? Yes. Delusional? Not evidence of such.
13) she would stay awake all night and not get her two year old on a normal schedule - If she doesn't have to work she doesn't need to be on a schedule. Define "normal" schedule? Time of waking/sleeping? I've known parents who both worked night shifts whose youngest children were, indeed, up all night and slept most of the day - it made sense in the context of those families, as it maximized parent/child interactions. If you mean no steady sleep/wake cycle - now that's probably not a good thing. But not proof of delusional thinking, even if it could arise from delusional thinking.
14) she and the children missed doctor appointments - sloppy at best. Potentially harmful.
15) She started [to] feed the children the 9 oz TV dinners, tiny cans of potted meat, and other small meals which were not enough - kids are pretty resiliant, they don't require a perfect diet. However, they do require adequate calories for growth. How much food were the kids really getting? Frequent small meals or infrequent small meals.
16) when we helped her move into our place, she had basically nothing packed and it was confused move. When she moved out, she seemed to have no logical way she was packing to move and seemed to be scrambling - sloppy, but if that's proof of mental illness most college students should be committed. Unless the conditions were unhygenic (rotting food, for example) this is not proof of mental illness or bad parenting.
17) One specific example, she eats raw meat and I think she has fed the child raw meat because she thinks the kid a wolf baby - oh, gosh, I'm in trouble - when a child I would frequently snatch raw meat from the kitchen and, darn it, I just love sushi! But I'm not a werewolf. At least, I don't think I'm a werewolf... Seriously, though, while this is very questionable from a health standpoint, it's not inherently harmful unless it's the only thing she's feeding the kid.

1, 2, 7, 10, and 17 are the only things that strike me as definitely indicative of mental problems. 4 and 5 might arise from delusions, or maybe she's just really into her role-playing games. 8 and 9 may or may not be delusional, I don't have enough information. None of the above strikes me as making her dangerous to others or prone to violence.

In her favor we have 11 - truly psychotic people frequently either can't hold down a job or have no interest in doing so. If 8 is true, then getting her and her children away from such situations would also count in her favor.

The only real points of concern I can see are 12, 14, 15, and 17. 12 is just sloppy, lots of normal parents lose their kids' medical information, too. 14 may constiute medical neglect, 15 and 17 would be dietary neglect. I think those three points - 14, 15, and 17 - are the only areas where social services could intervene based on what you've given us. Then the question becomes how severe are the problems? Are they causing an immediate danger to the children? No - then they kids stay with the mom. Yes - the kids go into foster care. Other than that, there's very little that can be done - social services is not in the business of dictating what a parent feeds a child, only that a parent provide adequate nutrition.

So... if she's not violent (a danger to herself and others) and the kids get adequate, even if not spectacular, care then there is very little an outside agency can do. Unless you can come up with something more concrete, or more examples of delusional thinking (the idea being to show a pattern of delusions), or evidence of violence on her part, nothing will change. So... do you have more "evidence" of severe trouble?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-13 07:31am

Why are you so averting of classifying her as insane when she at the least appears to be quite mentally disturbed? If someone's fucked in the head, I say something should be done with them.

At the least she should be charged with attempted child endagerment or abuse.

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2004-02-13 06:40pm

Broomstick wrote:You know, it's just really creeping me out how so many here are essentially saying "Just drug her up".

Define "Just drug her up" please. She definately do *need* some form of drugs.

It appears that she's already on some form of medication although she's probably not taking it

.

Most patients with severe psychiatric illnesses require medication AND counselling. Just receiving one of those treatments wont help.

But all of this is moot as what she REALLY needs is to get herself to a psychiatrist who can diagnose her properly.

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2004-02-13 06:53pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Why are you so averting of classifying her as insane when she at the least appears to be quite mentally disturbed?

What I *think* Broomstick is trying to get at here is that there are degrees of insanity. Its more important what effect a persons illness has than the fact that the person is "insane".

If someone's fucked in the head, I say something should be done with them.

I couldnt agree more if they volunteer. If not you have to prove that they are an imminent threat to themselves or others. And that can be tricky some times.

At the least she should be charged with attempted child endagerment or abuse.

What has she done that would deserve jail time?
IMO what is needed is for the children to go to foster-care and she should receive a treatment-sentence. Clean up her act and get her children back. If she cant do that then perhaps its better for the children to stay in foster-care.