Federation Weapons Range

[Ted C]

The targeting range of Federation ships seems to be a source of mystery. In "Conundrum", Worf claimed that the Enterprise-D's phasers have a range of 300,000 km. In "The Wounded", Data reports an engagement between the USS Phoenix and a Cardassian warship at a range of 300,000 km (even though the simultaneous on-screen readout of the battle does not agree with Data's description of it). In the Voyager episode "Equinox", Voyager reportedly fires phasers on the Equinox from 30,000 km away.

Yet in "Conundrum", Riker reports that they are still several seconds away from "optimum range" to the Lysian command center, even though they are practically on top of a target which is both very large (much larger than the Enterprise itself) and very poorly defended by Federation standards. On-screen, battles between starships routinely occur at ranges of only a few kilometers.

So what's going on?

Well, I have observed that in every instance in which battles take place at ranges of tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the attacking ship knows the transponder code of the target. In "The Wounded", the Federation already knew how to read Cardassian transponder codes, and Picard gave the transponder code of the Phoenix to the Cardassian warship that attacked it. The Equinox is a Federation starship itself, so the Voyager would have no trouble reading its transponder code.

I think it goes without saying that being able to home in on the transponder signal of a target vessel would dramatically increase the accuracy of the attacking ship.

I await specific examples of long-range engagements in Star Trek that do not involve ships with known transponder codes.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Accuracy even at close range in big battles is poor anyways. Never mind long. (see Wayne Poe's fancy video)

[Kamakazie Sith]

The targeting range of Federation ships seems to be a source of mystery. In "Conundrum", Worf claimed that the Enterprise-D's phasers have a range of 300,000 km. In "The Wounded", Data reports an engagement between the USS Phoenix and a Cardassian warship at a range of 300,000 km (even though the simultaneous on-screen readout of the battle does not agree with Data's description of it). In the Voyager episode "Equinox", Voyager reportedly fires phasers on the Equinox from 30,000 km away.

According to Wayne, Worf never made that statement. He says it is in the script but not in the actual statement.

I await specific examples of long-range engagements in Star Trek that do not involve ships with known transponder codes.

The only one I can think of is from VGR, they fire torpedoes at a missile from 8 million KM, however I haven't seen the episode so I don't know the all the details.

[CmdrWilkens]

The overall bet I would lay is that the weapons might be capable of ranging out to hundreds of thousands or millions of kilometers (hell TLs can range into the hundred million KM distance) however practical combat ranges (effective range if you will) is always going to be relatively close against targets which can manuever.

[SCVN 2812]

Close ranges are the optimal ranges for combat. By closing the distance you increase the accuracy of your weapons, the effectiveness of your weapons.

300,000k is the point where weapons even weapons moving at light speed or close to lightspeed like phasers, start to loose the advantage of practically no lag between firing and hitting, however after this point it becomes easier to actually manuver to avoid an incomming weapon because you actually have time to physically respond. The lag time between firing and impact is increased too, so much so that in the time that it takes to land a weapon on a ship the ship might have actually moved significantly.

[Eleas]

"Close ranges are the optimal ranges for combat. By closing the distance you increase the accuracy of your weapons, the effectiveness of your weapons."

...to a point, yes. Too close, and your targets will overshoot too quickly to allow accurate fire.

"300,000k is the point where weapons even weapons moving at light speed or close to lightspeed like phasers,"

Be advised that the TM no longer counts for anything. Now, please look at any Trek episode and you will notice that they visibly propagate, something lightspeed weapons do not.

"start to loose the advantage of practically no lag between firing and hitting, however after this point it becomes easier to actually manuver to avoid an incomming weapon because you actually have time to physically respond. The lag time between firing and impact is increased too, so much so that in the time that it takes to land a weapon on a ship the ship might have actually moved significantly."

Few engagements seem to be held at such distances anyway, due to jamming.

[Shadow]

<snip>

Voyager shot a weapon being used for tests from 8 million km.

[Howedar]

At a presumably static, inert, nonjamming target. I could do that with a .22, given sufficiently accurate ammunition and a nice computer-aided vise thing.

[Shadow]

At a presumably static, inert, nonjamming target. I could do that with a .22, given sufficiently accurate ammunition and a nice computer-aided vise thing.

Here is what happened from Delta Blues.
=====================================================
Of course, it couldn't last. Tom frowns when his console beeps. "I'm detecting another subspace warhead," he says.

"Range?" Janeway asks.

"12 million kilometers. Closing from astern."

Chakotay calls for red alert. "Where's the target probe?"

Tom checks the boards. "It's on a totally different trajectory!" What the heezy? Where's the weapon going, then?

Tuvok lets Tom get back to flying by providing more analysis. "When we engaged the engines the warhead must have diverted from its target and locked onto our warp signature."

I believe Darian Fawkes said it best: Oh, crap.

Janeway orders up the usual. "Evasive maneuvers."

As good as Tom is, the missiles are very sophisticated, and very fast. "It's matching our course. Eight million kilometers."

"Can you get a weapon's lock?" Janeway asks.

Ain't no thing, Tuvok says. "Affirmative."

Coolness. Light that candle! "Photon torpedoes. Full spread."

Tuvok fires the torpedoes, but the warhead spits out a cool little Spidey-Web that detonates them before they can do any damage. "Our torpedoes have been neutralized," Tuvok announces.
=====================================================

[Howedar]

So the weapon was tracking on Voyager, which means that there was no aspect change on the target. That, and we don't actually know the range at which the torpedos were neutralized, just the range when they were fired.

[Shadow]

So the weapon was tracking on Voyager, which means that there was no aspect change on the target. That, and we don't actually know the range at which the torpedos were neutralized, just the range when they were fired.

The torpedoes were fired at that range, so they expected them to hit from 8 million km.

[Ted C]

I suppose it was predictable that the SpaceBattles Trekkie answer to this question was "you can't trust the visuals; the ranges are condensed in every SciFi series except Star Wars". Yes, they actually specifically excluded Star Wars in their argument; Star Wars is WYSIWYG, but ships fight from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away in Trek, even though it looks like two.

As for the 8-million-km range thing. They were being tracked by some kind of inbound missile? Yes, it is in fact going to be pretty steady in their sights, then. According to the description I just saw, Tuvok also fired a full spread of torpedoes, meaning he was not counting on a direct hit, but hoping to get close enough to do some damage. Finally, it's impossible to say if he would have succeeded, since the missile stopped the torpedoes with some kind of countermeasure well before they hit.

[Howedar]

So the weapon was tracking on Voyager, which means that there was no aspect change on the target. That, and we don't actually know the range at which the torpedos were neutralized, just the range when they were fired.

The torpedoes were fired at that range, so they expected them to hit from 8 million km.

The target was 8 million km from Voyager when the torpedos were fired, and was closing fast (had cut 4 million km from the range in the middle of a conversation). So you assume that Voyager's torpedos reach the target instantaneously, instead of realizing that the torpedos will require some time to reach the target, at which point the target would have come closer to Voyager?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Let's see, they shot at a non moving missle, that was closing, and the torpedo was shot down? That's your proof?

[User099]

There is actually ONE occasion where that I remember, the Enterprise launching torpedoes at an object apparently sooo far away that it couldnt be seen, and the torpedoes vanished in the distance and exploded many seconds later, and hit (to no effect because it was a Q-thing but it still hit)
So they are capable of hitting targets from long ranges, out of site ranges infact. Plus a Star Destroyer, and especially SSDs and stuff are fairly large targets, that would decrease the inaccuracy of ST weapons. I mean, how often have you seen torpedoes or phaser-fire miss a Borg cube?
And everyone seems to dismiss the fact that SD turbolasers aren't sharpshooting sniper guns either. They seem never to be able to hit fighter-sized targets, unoftenly hit bigger targets like the MF, and so on, even at close range. What's to say that THEY wouldn't miss at longer ranges?

[Howedar]

I mean, how often have you seen torpedoes or phaser-fire miss a Borg cube?

Yeah, great idea, now if only torpedos and phasers could do jack shit against any Wars ship larger than a TIE...

And everyone seems to dismiss the fact that SD turbolasers aren't sharpshooting sniper guns either. They seem never to be able to hit fighter-sized targets, unoftenly hit bigger targets like the MF, and so on, even at close range. What's to say that THEY wouldn't miss at longer ranges?

Wow, just like the Trek weapons that you were just arguing won't miss capital ships at maxium range!

[User099]

I Said it would decrease this great inaccuracy in ST weapons, for one thing.
And for another, if an A-Wing crashing into the Executor bridge was enough to destroy it, why can't a torpedo or two do the same? And a couple of X-Wing torpedoes destroyed the shield generators.. so, what's to stop a GCS from killing off a SD in two shots? One for the shield generator, one into the bridge.

[Stark]

Erm... call me picky but they were A-wings, those globes aren't shield generators and the MF was being POUNDED by the ISD in the asteroid field. Their guns can track a target crossing the ship lengthways in about half a second with enough accuracy to deliberately near-miss to disable. And how is the Federation going to bring the Executor's shields down again?

[Mr Bean]

User099 The shields like others have said where down

With Muiltiple 200 GT Equiped Ships ALL firing at the Ex for over 30+ seconds and they managed to bring down one shield which allowed an A-Wing who was proably trying to do somthing else Death Dive into the Bridge(He was probably trying to Torp it now run into it)

If 100 ST Definates Got Togther and starting Shooting at a target and Lanunching Torps too(Grand Admrial Thrawn I belive said this) it would take them one mintue and twenty eight seconds for them to equal the firepower that one 200 GT Shot from a Heavy Turbolaser does
And the Ex had what, 10-30 Ships Firing at it? Plus who knows how many Torp launches from Fighters. Figure 16 ships say, 50 Cannons all togther(Kinda low end but bear with me) 30 seconds each cannon can shoot roughly 10 shots in one mintue or 5 in 30 seconds so in other words 250 shots each weighing in at 200 GT each puts us in the nice nieghborhood of 50,000 GT to bring down a shield. This numbers are on the low end, No accounting for Torps by Fighters, By Ships, Or the fact you had more than 16 ships there(Maybe not all in range)

At 200 GT ever 1.28 or every 88 seconds times 250 times thats 22,000 seconds or 366 Mintues

All while not being killed?

This is why people say SW would win quite easily
Oh and if my numbers on the time for that 200 GT are off lemme know Admiral,(ST weapons are in the megaton/kiloton range soo) Lets just do a quick recount if it was say 15 seconds to do the same amount 15 seconds times 250 times, divied by 60 for mintues and we get 62.5 or sixty two and a half mintues

Crunch the numbers if you want, if you found an error in my calculations by all means critiec away

[Ted C]

There is actually ONE occasion where that I remember, the Enterprise launching torpedoes at an object apparently sooo far away that it couldnt be seen, and the torpedoes vanished in the distance and exploded many seconds later, and hit (to no effect because it was a Q-thing but it still hit)?

Oooh... stretching way back to the beginning, aren't we. Supposedly they were firing at Q himself, moving in that form. And they weren't really even TRYING to hit; they just wanted to create a distraction while the separated the saucer section from the drive section.

So they are capable of hitting targets from long ranges, out of site ranges infact. Plus a Star Destroyer, and especially SSDs and stuff are fairly large targets, that would decrease the inaccuracy of ST weapons. I mean, how often have you seen torpedoes or phaser-fire miss a Borg cube?

Since they typically fire at these massive targets from their usual range of just a few kilometers, not often.

And everyone seems to dismiss the fact that SD turbolasers aren't sharpshooting sniper guns either. They seem never to be able to hit fighter-sized targets, unoftenly hit bigger targets like the MF, and so on, even at close range. What's to say that THEY wouldn't miss at longer ranges?

The problem here is that Star Wars supporters generally don't make claims of "100% accuracy from 300,000 km range". Trekkies are known to do that.

[Howedar]

I Said it would decrease this great inaccuracy in ST weapons, for one thing.
And for another, if an A-Wing crashing into the Executor bridge was enough to destroy it,

No. The Executor crashing into the DS2 at several km/s was enough to destroy it. The A-wing impact merely knocked out the C&C on the Executor for a few seconds.

[SPOOFE]

And everyone seems to dismiss the fact that SD turbolasers aren't sharpshooting sniper guns either. They seem never to be able to hit fighter-sized targets, unoftenly hit bigger targets like the MF, and so on, even at close range. What's to say that THEY wouldn't miss at longer ranges?

Two points:

-Star Destroyers have a decided lack of anti-starfighter weaponry (and the Death Star even less). They are primarily designed to take on capital ships, and the fighter complement is to serve the anti-fighter role. The fact that capital-level turbolasers miss starfighters by so very little is a testament to their accuracy.

-Turrets, by their very nature, are long-range weapons. When the target is close, the turret must rotate far more in order to maintain a weapons lock. At longer ranges, only minute adjustments are needed to keep a bead on the target.