Better Sci-fi Commander?

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-09-05 10:51pm

Which one of these science fiction commanders comes out surperior? Not a vs. battle, more of a measure of ability in their field + accomplishments.

Grand Admiral Thrawn, of Heir to the Empire fame?

Ender Wiggin, the child destroyer of the bugger race?

Admiral Ackbar, victorious Rebel Commander who's been in way too fecking many battles for his own good?

And....(just for fun)...Admiral Janeway

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-09-05 10:58pm

Ender is a leader of men, not a leader of armies.

Thrawn is a leader of armies, not a leader of men.

Ackbar is a happy medium.

Janeway is incompetent.

With the exception of Janeway I'm tempted to say that all are fairly closely matched.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-09-05 11:18pm

Thrawn is pretty decent at leading men, but he excels in leading armies. You might remember that while he had one man shot for gross incompetence, he promoted another person who failed because that person was innovative.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-09-05 11:24pm

Thrawn - he's Ender with experience.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 03:19am

Ender Wiggin, the child destroyer of the bugger race?

He'd be good except for his unfortunate tendancy to fold under pressure. He lost it in Ender's Game and again in Xenocide/Children of the Mind. He's good on paper but when the crunch comes he folds. It was only his luck in his subbordinates that kept he from hosing it both times.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-09-06 01:53pm

Father Captain de Soya. Given that he has his archangels.
Because deathbeams kill.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-06 02:01pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:Father Captain de Soya. Given that he has his archangels.
Because deathbeams kill.

And even the most inept Imperial Star Destroyer commander could wipe out many entire universes simply because of the ships overwhelming combat power. The technology a commander uses is not a measure of how good they are.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-09-06 02:01pm

Thrawn, seeing as he has the best (IIRC) apparent commanding skills.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-09-06 03:12pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Ender Wiggin, the child destroyer of the bugger race?
He'd be good except for his unfortunate tendancy to fold under pressure. He lost it in Ender's Game and again in Xenocide/Children of the Mind. He's good on paper but when the crunch comes he folds. It was only his luck in his subbordinates that kept he from hosing it both times.

Which events are you talking about, exactly?

I'm assuming the Ender's Game event is his 'freeze' during the final assault on the Bugger's home world. Correct?

It's been awhile since I've read the sequels (Didn't like them very much, either). In which instance does he fold under pressure?

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-09-06 03:14pm

weemadando wrote:Ender is a leader of men, not a leader of armies.

Thrawn is a leader of armies, not a leader of men.

Ackbar is a happy medium.

Janeway is incompetent.

With the exception of Janeway I'm tempted to say that all are fairly closely matched.

Well, supposedly, Ender became very competent with commanding fleets in the simulator prior to the reunion with his subordinates and friends from Battle School. True, though...his forte was his ability to command subordinates.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-09-06 04:16pm

Ender is more described as a strategist instead of a tactician. He can lead his men well, but is also adept at commanding fleets.

Thrawn's last battle had degenerated beyond salvage, and he was assassinated by somebody he trusted...

I'd like to see what happens if one throws Bean into the mix...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-06 06:58pm

Badme wrote:Which events are you talking about, exactly?

I'm assuming the Ender's Game event is his 'freeze' during the final assault on the Bugger's home world. Correct?

Not just that. But the whole nervous break down he suffered before that. He was pretty much suicidal there for a while and that's not a good thing in a military commander.

And that's when he thinks it's a silmulation. As Bean(?) noted in Shadow had he been told they were real people he would have either died or killed himself.

Badme wrote:It's been awhile since I've read the sequels (Didn't like them very much, either). In which instance does he fold under pressure?

He flaked out big time. Not a nervous breakdown but he flaked out and eventually decided to become a monk the middle of the campaign. He Peter Wiggin 2.0 not been there to follow through Lusitania would have been Doctored.

The problem with Ender is that he's good but can't handle the strain.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-09-06 08:26pm

Stormbringer wrote:The problem with Ender is that he's good but can't handle the strain.

Which is nearly as bad as being straight up incompetent.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-06 10:18pm

Exonerate wrote: Thrawn's last battle had degenerated beyond salvage, and he was assassinated by somebody he trusted...

Actually, Thrawn did say that the battle was still salvageable, and then
he got assassinated, and then Pellaeon saw that there was no way
he could win or at least eke out a slight tactical victory and wisely
withdrew.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-09-07 09:11pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Badme wrote:Which events are you talking about, exactly?

I'm assuming the Ender's Game event is his 'freeze' during the final assault on the Bugger's home world. Correct?
Not just that. But the whole nervous break down he suffered before that. He was pretty much suicidal there for a while and that's not a good thing in a military commander.

And that's when he thinks it's a silmulation. As Bean(?) noted in Shadow had he been told they were real people he would have either died or killed himself.

That WAS quite an extreme example, however. Months/Weeks (Can't remember the exact time period) of life in which your entire existence is centered around a series of tests (Or so Ender thought they were...). Ender was repeatedly being woken up in the middle of the night to play 'games' that lasted several hours long, after which he'd either go back to sleep, have a meal, or review past games and practice strategy with Mazer. Instead of having breaks during battles, like he gave his subordinates, he began shouldering more of the work. Oh, yeah, and the buggers were giving him the old mind-fuck across the ansible while he slept.

I came out with the impression that his performance was quite amazing under the circumstances. He took on much more of the work than his subordinates did, didn't take any breaks from the war at all like his subordinates did, was being forced to go over either his worst memories or horrible, twisted nightmares every time he attempted to rest (which his subordinates didn't), and STILL lasted longer than most of them did (several of his commanders 'flamed out', the most notable being Petra). And even with that, he was able to devise a plan to reach the bugger's home world through their maze of ships.

However, you are correct in that he wouldn't have been able to do it unless he was misinformed on the true intent of the games. However, Ender's accomplishments still stand, irrelevant of his impression at the time.

With that said...I really think its a toss-up between Thrawn and Ender. Thrawn's art trick never really made sense to me, but it certainly demonstrates the utterly incredible analytical abilities he has. Does Ender have that? There's not much to suggest that, so I doubt it. Then again, could Thrawn have pulled off Ender's stunts, under the kind of shit Ender was dealing with? I'm unsure. Certainly Thrawn would be able to duplicate at least a good deal of Ender's tricks, or invent his own in the spur of the moment which likely would have worked out better.

Does anyone have any info on Thrawn's accomplishments? It's been years since I've read any of the Thrawn novels, and I don't think I ever read the later duology.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-07 09:28pm

That WAS quite an extreme example, however. Months/Weeks (Can't remember the exact time period) of life in which your entire existence is centered around a series of tests (Or so Ender thought they were...). Ender was repeatedly being woken up in the middle of the night to play 'games' that lasted several hours long, after which he'd either go back to sleep, have a meal, or review past games and practice strategy with Mazer. Instead of having breaks during battles, like he gave his subordinates, he began shouldering more of the work. Oh, yeah, and the buggers were giving him the old mind-fuck across the ansible while he slept.

Real battles stressful and shit like that happens. I'm sure Shep and Seaskimmer could provide detailed examples commanders that were forced to endure tougher conditions.

He was pushed hard but any commander is likely to be pushed hard. Long hours and stress are part of the job. And he flaked out just imaging the losses; a real war would break him.

And that doesn't change the later example. He up and abandoned them at the most crucial minute to follow his uber-bitch wife in joining a monastary. He flakes under pressure. It's a fact.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-07 09:52pm

Badme wrote:
That WAS quite an extreme example, however. Months/Weeks (Can't remember the exact time period) of life in which your entire existence is centered around a series of tests (Or so Ender thought they were...). Ender was repeatedly being woken up in the middle of the night to play 'games' that lasted several hours long, after which he'd either go back to sleep, have a meal, or review past games and practice strategy with Mazer. Instead of having breaks during battles, like he gave his subordinates, he began shouldering more of the work. Oh, yeah, and the buggers were giving him the old mind-fuck across the ansible while he slept.

Current USN captains often go six months with four to six hours sleep every twenty-four hours. Mind you, this is during normal peacetime operations. If this guy broke while getting to sleep every night he's no good at the job. End of story.

As for no breaks during battles, you don't get those in real life. You stay awake and fighting until the jobs done. It's not uncommon for Admirals or capitals to be up several days straight during a major operations, maybe with a half hour nap or two along the way. But so long as your vessel is firing or maneuvering in the sight of the enemy there will not be even that. This is why good officers are so prized and rare, not many can make the cut.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-07 09:58pm

Thank you for proving my point with such exquisite detail.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-09-07 11:32pm

Edward Jelico is Treks best commander. Has the right drive, motivates the crew properly, and knows how to properly use a warship in "diplomatic negotiations" with a hostile government and warships.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-09-07 11:36pm

The fact that Ender spent three thousand years in an angsty funk pretty much negates anything he might have accomplished as a kid. So you annihilated a species. Big deal. Wouldn't have happened if they weren't stupid enough to put all their eggs in one basket, keeping all of their queens on one planet. Crying about it isn't going to bring them back. Get over it.

And I still can't believe that it took three thousand years for him to find another planet inhabitable by buggers. There certainly seems to be enough of them out there that're inhabitable by humans. The buggers must be one wimpy species.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-07 11:42pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:And I still can't believe that it took three thousand years for him to find another planet inhabitable by buggers. There certainly seems to be enough of them out there that're inhabitable by humans. The buggers must be one wimpy species.

Actually, it was partly because of relativity. He'd only spent about ten to twenty years of subject time doing much. The other part because he had to find a planet where the buggers would be secure. He was worried about us decided we were right to wipe them out the first time.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2003-09-08 06:09am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Badme wrote:
That WAS quite an extreme example, however. Months/Weeks (Can't remember the exact time period) of life in which your entire existence is centered around a series of tests (Or so Ender thought they were...). Ender was repeatedly being woken up in the middle of the night to play 'games' that lasted several hours long, after which he'd either go back to sleep, have a meal, or review past games and practice strategy with Mazer. Instead of having breaks during battles, like he gave his subordinates, he began shouldering more of the work. Oh, yeah, and the buggers were giving him the old mind-fuck across the ansible while he slept.
Current USN captains often go six months with four to six hours sleep every twenty-four hours. Mind you, this is during normal peacetime operations. If this guy broke while getting to sleep every night he's no good at the job. End of story.

As for no breaks during battles, you don't get those in real life. You stay awake and fighting until the jobs done. It's not uncommon for Admirals or capitals to be up several days straight during a major operations, maybe with a half hour nap or two along the way. But so long as your vessel is firing or maneuvering in the sight of the enemy there will not be even that. This is why good officers are so prized and rare, not many can make the cut.

Ah. Well then, conceded.