Potential Doctor Who Shake up(Status Quo Remains)

[Batman]

Oh I completely agree. I was merely pointing out there are shows where the show itself isn't the actual money-maker.

[Gandalf]

And I mean, yeah, Doctor Who is a commercial enterprise, but their is a reason why marketing executives aren't fiction writers- for the most part, they're probably not very good at it.

No, but they know who to put in what role to maximise potential profit. Look at the Avengers films. Why does Iron Man appear so often and make a mint doing so? Because he puts people in seats who turn up to see him quip. Want a mass nerd turnout? Hire Joss Whedon to write and direct. By hiring writers/actors/directors who will draw income greater than their cost it's pretty easy to Moneyball the whole thing. Traditional wisdom states that in periods of economic downturn, cinemagoers are less likely to take risks on unfamiliar content, so it's easier to stick with proven material.

It doesn't always work, but there's a reason the MCU just had its fifteenth film.

[Gandalf]

I am skeptical that merchandise sales will remain high even if the quality of the show flounders, though I am admittedly not a marketing exec.

It doesn't have to be good. It just needs to be liked enough to get butts in seats and maintain brand loyalty.

So if you keep watching when they make changes like this, then you've tacitly endorsed them by continuing to give your money.

[PREDATOR490]

This was entirely predictable.

The high point of New Who was the Tennant Era, so clearly the thinking is that if they go back to that it will make the series great again. I consider this an extremely rose tinted false view in hindsight which will likely end with Doctor Who going through a mess the likes of which ended with Old Who getting cancelled.

I only see Tennant being the falsely represented benefactor of riding the wave of a reborn Doctor Who after a decent first season from Eccleston. This wave carries on fairly well all the way to Doomsday but then things all but went to ruin, ending with the gratuitous Tennant goodbye rubbish.

'Dashing' male Doctor and female companion - Doctor Who has been hijacked from being a comedy Sci-Fantasy show to a bizarre romantic drama. Might as well have the Vampire Diaries / Twilight or the hundred other variations of that kind of genre. That said, the major failing is trying to somehow try to be Doctor Who AND a Romantic drama. The perfect course for that kind of format would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer - However, such a course would require the equivalent of a complete reset for Doctor Who and it is all but obvious from this news they would never dare take that kind of risk.

I would much prefer it if Doctor Who tried to grow up to being a more consistent series like Farscape if they want to play the Sci-Drama aspect or Buffy if they want to play the Comedy-Drama. However, at this point I am going to continue giving Doctor Who a miss. For a fleeting time I thought Capaldi would have been the beginning of getting Doctor Who back to being original. That died fantastically when the original aspect was making the Master a woman so she could fucking kiss the Doctor the first time they meet.

[Crazedwraith]

Translation: The "bring back Tennant" shipping obsessed whiners won.

-snip even more drivel-

That is an oddly specific accusation. You realise every other doctor and companians have shippers right and that lots of popular Doctors have had fans want them back. Why do you think multi-doctor stories are a thing?

Its not any set of fans winning anything. It is the BBC trying to get back to what worked.

Its very obvious which group of fans such a decision would be catering to.

And frankly, whatever problems Doctor Who is having now, I am quite confident its not Peter Capaldi's fault.

Never said it was. And you are projecting so hard about this. All the announcement ssys is 'all new cast' and 'probably ypunger than capaldi' guess what? Nearly every other actor to play the doctor was younger than capaldi? Doctor + female companian is a staple of the show. Shipping is not mew look up Four/Romana sometime.

Stop manufacting false fucking outrage.

[Crazedwraith]

ghetto edit: Missed this first time through, I thought it was basically the same as above until edit window as passed.

Moreover, you have to think long term. Doctor Who has survived and succeeded as long as it has because it is built on change, on each Doctor bringing something new to the table. Settling into a rut of "young male romantic lead Doctor, young female companion" (and doesn't the latent sexism just ooze out of that arrangement) is not going back to what works. Its throwing out what's worked for fifty years- a show that grows and changes with each new era.

This is exactly the point. The show survives and changes. Half because the writers are different, and half because the actors are different. So even if they're aiming for a Tennant style Doctor. Why, with a different actor and different writers, do you think it will be remotely the same?

At the very least the Fifth, Eighth, Tenth and Eleventh doctors were all young handsome men with female companions. They're all very different eras of the show. Thirteen will be no different in that his tenure will be unique to him.

For someone who's constantly defended continuations and reboots you're being the exactly same 'kneejerk fan who can't accept change' you've often decried.

[Hillary]

***Clicks link***
***Sees Daily Mirror banner***
***ignores***

Since when did click bait get given the time of day here? The Mirror have posted countless bogus Who stories - I'll wait for a credible source before I get interested.

[Crazedwraith]

***Clicks link***
***Sees Daily Mirror banner***
***ignores***

Since when did click bait get given the time of day here? The Mirror have posted countless bogus Who stories - I'll wait for a credible source before I get interested.

Ha! You're probably right.

Those episode summaries especially sound like parodies of Moffat plots.

[Hillary]

***Clicks link***
***Sees Daily Mirror banner***
***ignores***

Since when did click bait get given the time of day here? The Mirror have posted countless bogus Who stories - I'll wait for a credible source before I get interested.

Ha! You're probably right.

Those episode summaries especially sound like parodies of Moffat plots.

I belong to a couple of Doctor Who FB groups - people are always posting articles from the Mirror (who seem especially bad on this subject) with headlines like "Matt Smith/Chris Ecclestone to return".

The new season could go either way. I hated the Capaldi/Clara relationship, as I think it strangled Capaldi's Doctor - his performances were much stronger when she wasn't in the scenes (think how awesome he was in Heaven Sent and his scenes with Davros, and River in the Xmas special). Her arc line became the entire focus of the show; they made Capaldi behave like a complete arse at times just to fit in with Clara's story - think what a twat he was in Kill the Moon (well, throughout his first season, basically) and he even shot one of the good guys in Hell Bent just to make a point about how important she was. I thought she was fine with Smith, funnily enough - but that's probably because Smith's Doctor was well established before she arrived on the scene.

With the slate wiped clean (he doesn't even remember her, so won't be moping like Tenant did for 4 years over Rose), we may get to see the real Capaldi Doctor which is good. Pearl Mackie's character is quite a different beast from the little we've seen of her - I'm coming at it with an open mind.

[The Romulan Republic]

That is an oddly specific accusation. You realise every other doctor and companians have shippers right and that lots of popular Doctors have had fans want them back. Why do you think multi-doctor stories are a thing?

Its not any set of fans winning anything. It is the BBC trying to get back to what worked.

Its very obvious which group of fans such a decision would be catering to.

And frankly, whatever problems Doctor Who is having now, I am quite confident its not Peter Capaldi's fault.

Never said it was. And you are projecting so hard about this. All the announcement ssys is 'all new cast' and 'probably ypunger than capaldi' guess what? Nearly every other actor to play the doctor was younger than capaldi? Doctor + female companian is a staple of the show. Shipping is not mew look up Four/Romana sometime.

Stop manufacting false fucking outrage.

I'm doing no such thing.

I am observing what the article describes, drawing likely conclusions based on that, and expressing (in an admittedly rather harsh manner) my disapproval.

Now, granted, this could be so much hot air, since its the Mirror.

But if it is remotely accurate, I think it is a decided move in the wrong direction.

And you're being extremely disingenuous to say that all they describe is "younger than Capaldi". Quoting the fucking article:

"BBC management wants a return to the format from the David Tennant era, when you had a dashing male lead and young female companion."

Its very, very obvious what they're angling for, because they say it outright: young handsome romantic male lead, young female companion (presumably for sexual tension).

They specifically say they're aiming for Tennant Mk II. (except without mentioning any of the things that actually made Tennant awesome in the role).

ghetto edit: Missed this first time through, I thought it was basically the same as above until edit window as passed.

Moreover, you have to think long term. Doctor Who has survived and succeeded as long as it has because it is built on change, on each Doctor bringing something new to the table. Settling into a rut of "young male romantic lead Doctor, young female companion" (and doesn't the latent sexism just ooze out of that arrangement) is not going back to what works. Its throwing out what's worked for fifty years- a show that grows and changes with each new era.

This is exactly the point. The show survives and changes. Half because the writers are different, and half because the actors are different. So even if they're aiming for a Tennant style Doctor. Why, with a different actor and different writers, do you think it will be remotely the same?

At the very least the Fifth, Eighth, Tenth and Eleventh doctors were all young handsome men with female companions. They're all very different eras of the show. Thirteen will be no different in that his tenure will be unique to him.

For someone who's constantly defended continuations and reboots you're being the exactly same 'kneejerk fan who can't accept change' you've often decried.

The thing is, this isn't really change, so much as going back to an old status quo and holding it up as the way it should be.

You're right that Tennant wasn't the only one to potentially fit this mould, and I'm pretty sure that I never said he was. However, given the context, I'd say its a pretty safe bet who's run they're emulating, and who's fans they're trying to pander to.

[Soontir C'boath]

Speaking of merchandise sales, there are only so many sonic screwdrivers and TARDIS cookie jars that they can sell. The last thing I got was a set of 5" Doctors and that was yeeaars ago.

If there is any Doctor they should come back and imitate it is Jon Pertwee not Tennant and therefore it should be Daniel Craig. Ok, seriously, it should be Idris Elba. I think he can pull some parts of Pertwee while definitely bringing his own into the character.

[The Romulan Republic]

A thought I had:

Now, to be clear, I am aware that this is pure speculation. I have no evidence for this beyond the fact that it is one of various explanations that would fit the evidence on hand.

But is it possible that their is a political element to this decision, if indeed the article is accurate?

"...a dashing male lead and young female companion.", to me, definitely conjures up images of a more... conventional gender dynamic, and it pretty firmly puts the foot down on rumours of a female Doctor.

Is it possible that BBC management have looked at Brexit and Trump and concluded that progressivism, affirmative action, and social justice are not what the public currently wants, and that therefore its safer/more marketable to stick with traditional casting (i.e. white men) and traditional gender dynamics?

I hope that's not the case, but given the timing, I can't help but wonder.

[Joun_Lord]

I doubt it has anything to do with Brexit anymore then if it was some American show going back to the status quo could be blamed on Trump. I noticed when I was going back fixing my many, many horrible mistakes of grammar I wrote Bush originally. I find that a bit funny.

Hitting that reset button is a time honored tradition for television. Try new shit but if it don't work, like how having an older Doctor doesn't seem to be working, then they stomp on that reset button like a set of rich dudes nuts under the heels of a 100 dollar an hour dominatrix.

It safer to have a traditional casting and gender dynamic because they know that works, because they know (or assume) it worked with Destro, it worked with Kilgrave, and it worked with Skynet. They want it to work with the next Doc too. They probably don't want a fem-Doc or Doctor that is female, an older Doctor, or an older Companion because they either think it will not sell, know it won't, or don't want to take the risk. Doesn't mean they don't think the viewing public doesn't like progressive junk or social justice shit but that they think their viewing public wants a dashing male lead and young female companion like they are used to.

Not because they are racist or sexist or anti-progress or anything of the sort, its because they want characters to remain the same. There is nothing new about that either, always tv or movie productions run the risk of fucking up if they change a character. Not skin color or gender, any change. I remember reading somewhere the studio that made the Hairy Potthead (I'm so fucking witty and clever, bask, BASK in my genius puns) films was worried about fans losing their shit because Daniel Radcliffe had blue eyes instead of Harry Potters green and he couldn't wear contacts to change it to be closer to the books. Fucking eye color.

They changed the Doctor slightly (ironically made him more like the original Doctor, old and kind of a dick) and fans didn't seem to like it (didn't seem to, I'm sure fans not buying products or not watching had nothing, nothing to do with the shitty plots, badly written characters, and a character change seemingly done only to give slash fans a orgasm, nothing, clearly it was only the fault of the Doctor being ucky and old) so they are apparently going to change him back.

[NecronLord]

"...a dashing male lead and young female companion.", to me, definitely conjures up images of a more... conventional gender dynamic, and it pretty firmly puts the foot down on rumours of a female Doctor.

Is it possible that BBC management have looked at Brexit and Trump and concluded that progressivism, affirmative action, and social justice are not what the public currently wants, and that therefore its safer/more marketable to stick with traditional casting (i.e. white men) and traditional gender dynamics?

If so then at last you've found the silver lining. The female doctor idea was insufferable. Yes, it'd be interesting that time lords can swap gender.

But it's not 'progressive.'

The moment the Master swapped gender she wanted to submit to the Doctor as a female, and extremely sexually available - she even flirted with fucking daleks - a species who in their last encounter excecuted the Master.




One of these wants to give the cybermen to the Doctor to win approval. Guess which one?


Yeah, no. Let's not have Fem doctor. She would be 'feminized' in asinine ways that break character.

[Crazedwraith]

To be absolutely fair, that's not a problem with the concept of a female Doctor. It's a problem with shitty writing.

That said, there's never been any credible rumour or reason to believe they were considering a female doctor. Or even a black one. Despite much call from 'progressives' for one.

[NecronLord]

Yes, but it's obvious that the topic wouldn't be handled with grace or intelligence. Look what they did to the Master.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, that falls less under "female Doctor is a bad idea" and more under "God damn it, Moffat."

[Tribble]

Well, look what they did to poor Capaldi... his entire first episode (and perhaps first season) was dedicated to telling younger viewers (especially the fan girls) that even though he is a yucky cranky old man that has no interest in being their boyfriend, they can still watch the show.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be honest, I think the overall quality of the show's writing took a nose dive around the start of series six (at the latest). Their are a handful of exceptions (The Doctor's Wife, AGMGTW, Day of the Doctor, perhaps Heaven Sent despite the episode that followed it), but Moffat basically delivered one decent season and then, exceptions aside, seemed to be played out. He has no sense of continuity, rehashes the same tired ideas, tries to have his cake and eat it too (like trying to give Rory and Amy a contrived tear jerker send off and a contrived happily ever after at the same time), and is generally far to self-indulgent and wrapped up in his own cleverness. Its very clear to me, often, that he's putting his personal fanboy wish list ahead of what's best for the show. The phrase that comes irresistibly to mind is "fanfic writer with a budget".

I think, to be honest, that their's an argument for changing head writers as often as one changes Doctors or even companion. Bring in some fresh blood before things get stale or bogged down.

Edit: I also suspect that at least some of the show's current difficulties can be attributed to Moffat's leadership, and that the BBC should give it a season under the new head writer to see if things improve before making radical changes to the show's basic format or casting.

Trying to keep a regular schedule can't hurt either, and its almost the only sensible thing here. I honestly wonder how much of an audience Who loses during each interminable, inconsistently-long break between seasons.

[Tribble]

IMO RTD was pretty similar and there isn't that much difference between the two. The only things RTD was pretty consistent on was "don't show the Time War" and "The Doctor cannot / shouldn't change his own timeline."

To be honest one could argue that Doctor Who is pretty overrated, and the show mostly consists of sub par episodes with a few good ones scattered about each season. Even though I enjoy it I can see why a lot of people don't like it and/or don't want to watch it.

[The Romulan Republic]

The show's great advantage is also its great weakness: it has an incredibly flexible, versatile premise that allows you to tell almost any kind of story with almost any actors and still fit within the Doctor Who universe. That's probably largely responsible for its longevity, but its a double-edged sword- their's not much of a solid framework to work with, so the show is only as good as its current batch of writers, and a writer who lacks self-discipline (like Moffat seems to) can quickly take the show off the rails.

The one fairly consistent theme that I see running through the series (although it probably emerged more by accident than anything else) is the question of identity, which gets revisited whenever the Doctor regenerates. If your body, your personality, even your memories are malleable... what makes you, you? Even when not addressed explicitly, its their implicitly.

That's part of why it would be so interesting to have a female Doctor. Their's a lot that could be explored their. But doing it well is entirely contingent on having a good writing staff at the time, and I'm pretty sure the show's current writers are not up to it.

[Tribble]

The show's great advantage is also its great weakness: it has an incredibly flexible, versatile premise that allows you to tell almost any kind of story with almost any actors and still fit within the Doctor Who universe. That's probably largely responsible for its longevity, but its a double-edged sword- their's not much of a solid framework to work with, so the show is only as good as its current batch of writers, and a writer who lacks self-discipline (like Moffat seems to) can quickly take the show off the rails.

The one fairly consistent theme that I see running through the series (although it probably emerged more by accident than anything else) is the question of identity, which gets revisited whenever the Doctor regenerates. If your body, your personality, even your memories are malleable... what makes you, you? Even when not addressed explicitly, its their implicitly.

That's part of why it would be so interesting to have a female Doctor. Their's a lot that could be explored their. But doing it well is entirely contingent on having a good writing staff at the time, and I'm pretty sure the show's current writers are not up to it.

I agree, though I don't see RTD being much better to be perfectly honest. It always appeared to me that Eccleston and Tennant were making their characters work in spite of RTD's silliness. IMO quality-wise RTD episodes and Moffat episodes are more or less the same. IMO RTD's episodes appear to be a bit better because his episodes were more standalone so the failure of an episode didn't matter as much. Generally speaking Moffat tries to have a series long narrative while RTD generally had standalone episodes with a loose plot thread that gets resolved at the end of each series, if you know what I mean.

Funny thing is the best episodes of the RTD era tended to be ones they both worked together. I think you could say Moffat was the better writer for individual episodes while RTD was the better overall producer, though the two are far from perfect in both areas.

[Soontir C'boath]

Part of my issue with nuWho was just how Earth-centric many episodes were even though they weren't trapped like Pertwee's Doctor. Even stuff that happened in outer space had to have Earthly human elements into the mix like New New York or that clockwork episode. It was terribly unimaginative.

[The Romulan Republic]

Indeed.

And instead of thinking outside the box, it sounds like the BBC wants to climb further inside and lock the door behind them.

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, going back to my comment about Steven Moffat acting like a typical fanfic writer with a budget, I'd like to see a head writer who wasn't a life long Who fan before taking over, or previously employed as a regular writer on Doctor Who.

The problem with a fan running the show is that a fan is likely to have a lot of baggage- potentially decades of preconceptions, pet ideas they're attached to regardless of weather they work, axes to grind, and nostalgia.

You don't need a fan to run the series. You need a professional writer who knows what works and what doesn't in television writing. Prior SF experience might be a bonus, but prior Who experience might actually be a liability.