Death Star Conspiracy

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Ted C
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Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Ted C »

A new conspiracy theory has emerged on Facebook.



Like conspiracy theories typically are, this one is full of holes:
  1. Darth Vader was not in command of the Death Star; Grand Moff Tarkin was.
  2. Darth Vader didn't build R2-D2; that droid is older than he was.
  3. There is no record of Darth Vader having children.
  4. The exhaust port was not two feet wide: it was two *meters* wide; there are kids on Tatooine who can hit a target that size from a skyhopper.
These conspiracy nuts clearly don't want to acknowledge the very simple failures that lead to the loss of the Death Star.
  • If the Imperial intelligence services had been doing their jobs properly, the schematics for the station would never have fallen into rebel hands in the first place.
  • If every single gun turret on the station hadn't been designed shoot at cruisers with nor regard to the possible threat of fighters, the rebel attack would have been quickly repelled.
  • If the exhaust port had been fully shielded instead of just ray-shielded, there would have been no rebel attack at all.
This is yet another smear campaign aimed at Darth Vader simply because he was the sole survivor of the Death Star, when logs of the battle show that he was the only one who took action when it became apparent that the station's gun turrets could not rotate quickly enough to target starfighters. He ordered his squadron of fighters to repel the attack, placing himself at risk to lead the defense.

We should be glad he survived instead of trying to blame the Death Star fiasco on him.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Lord Revan »

btw for those who aren't sure about the conversion 2 ft=60 cm or 0.6m or to put into another perspective 7ft is 217 cm or 2.17 m so the actual size for the death star port was little under 7ft
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Borgholio »

simply because he was the sole survivor of the Death Star
Wasn't General Veers (and others) supposed to have taken an evac transport once they realized Tarkin wasn't going to do anything?
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by FedRebel »

Ted C wrote:
  • If the Imperial intelligence services had been doing their jobs properly, the schematics for the station would never have fallen into rebel hands in the first place.
Politics likely got in the way, the Emperor had to play nice until the senate was dissolved, an ISB probe into the Organa family wouldn't be well received by the senate...making their dissolution less than civil.

Vader needed actionable intel in order to go after Liea...and even then he had to cover up the details to avoid a senatorial protest.

[/quote][*]If every single gun turret on the station hadn't been designed shoot at cruisers with nor regard to the possible threat of fighters, the rebel attack would have been quickly repelled.[/quote]

Imperial Naval doctrine at the time relied on fighters to combat fighters, freeing up installations to be biased on anti-captialship emplacements. It was Tarkin's over confidence that delayed an appropriate defensive response until lord Vader intervened (Had Tarkin not fallen for the Death Star's marketing spiel, ha may have acted more pragmatically.)
[*]If the exhaust port had been fully shielded instead of just ray-shielded, there would have been no rebel attack at all.[/list]
.
The shielding handicap was likely incurred by the emissions coming from the port, alternative shielding would likely have blocked emissions completely causing a disaster.

The primary design flaw however, was the trench, if there wasn't a clean path bellow the gun line, enemy craft wouldn't be able to successfully make the attack run. Hitting a 2 meter target is a heavy ECM environment requires a ballistic flight path...especially if the torpedoes fired require a sharp 90 degree turn.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Galvatron »

Borgholio wrote:
simply because he was the sole survivor of the Death Star
Wasn't General Veers (and others) supposed to have taken an evac transport once they realized Tarkin wasn't going to do anything?
That would be General Tagge. He died on the Death Star in the old EU. He survived to be promoted to grand general in the new EU.

http://i65.tinypic.com/jp8ygk.jpg

Veers made his first appearance in TESB.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Elheru Aran »

In Legends canon, Veers was on the DSI or on his way there-- he was stranded on the Yavin moon after the explosion of the battle station and an Imperial force had to rescue him. See the 'Force Commander' game. Pretty loosely canon but it's there.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Crazedwraith »

Elheru Aran wrote:In Legends canon, Veers was on the DSI or on his way there-- he was stranded on the Yavin moon after the explosion of the battle station and an Imperial force had to rescue him. See the 'Force Commander' game. Pretty loosely canon but it's there.
You're both correct actually. The old EU had a whole raft of survivors: The Technical commentaries has a list.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Galvatron »

Curtis thought Ulric and Cassio Tagge were the same guy?

EDIT: Well, I guess they originally WERE the same guy...
Wookieepedia wrote:Ulric Tagge was originally intended to be the same character as the General Tagge seen in A New Hope.[source?] However, other sources showed that the General Tagge portrayed in the film did indeed die aboard the Death Star. The discrepancy was reconciled in Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds, which revealed that the two Tagges were indeed different persons, and that A New Hope's Tagge's first name was Cassio.

It is hard to understand why Ulric, a fleet commander, has an army-style rank; similarly, dialogue in A New Hope makes Cassio sound like a fleet commander, EU identifying him as an army officer nonetheless.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Isn't this rather old? I remember this from around five years ago. Obviously it is a parody of just how ridicules 9/11 conspiracies are.

Anyway, as for picking apart said theory:
Was the Rebel Alliance ever referred to as a terrorist organization anywhere? The Empire merely refereed to them as "rebel scum." The insult was largely similar to that used in the American Civil War of calling the Confederates Jonny Reb.

It was actually a military rather than a political target. Did we see a single civilian on that station? In fact the only act of terrorism in the film was the Death Star blowing up Alderaan.

Wedge may have stated it to be impossible, but that did not stop him from carrying out the mission anyway. Soldiers often use that sort of hyperbole when given extremely dangerous assignments. When US Army Rangers were told to assault Point Du Hoc, they stated something similar. It didn't stop them from successfully attacking it.

As for the familial connection I would agree that no one in the galaxy apart from the two Sith and two Jedi knew about it. That was actually always the number as whenever one that knew died, a second learned about it(Luke and Leia). None of them would ever have a reason to let that secret become known(though I wonder if it does leading up to the new films). But at that point there was no reason for anyone to question how the Death Star was destroyed.

As for Vader's "unorthodox and unprecedented" decision to lead the attack directly, did these people not see how Jedi lead during the Clone Wars? They were always leading from the front, often from a fighter cockpit. Vader was almost certainly the best pilot in the Empire, not someone who anyone would ever question.

In addition the defenses of the Death Star did not stave off the Rebel attacks. All three trench runs failed to lose even a single fighter to the Death Star's guns. They only lost fighters to Vader.

As for the Anakin/R2 connection, R2 had the plans, not 3PO. C3P0 never even knew he had them the entire time. Obviously because protocol droids were known to be blabbermouths.

There is also no indication of an economic connection between Darth Vader and any company that gained contracts on the second Death Star.

Luke Skywalker's "minimal combat training" included being an extremely skilled bush pilot before flying X-wings, whose skills impressed Rebel Alliance pilot and Imperial Academy graduate Biggs Darklighter. Not to mention that he was Force sensitive, a fact that this video is obviously ignoring.

In addition to the analysis problems there are also several outright factual errors. The numerous presence of these makes their sources questionable at best*.
1) Their timeline is factually incorrect. Vader entered into combat as the first Y-wing run began, long before Luke began his run.
2) They claim it was Wedge who made a failed run. It was Red Leader.
3) Referring to the Millennium Falcon a Corellian class fighter vessel.

* I suspect this may have been intentional as a way of parodying the real theory.
Ted C wrote:If the exhaust port had been fully shielded instead of just ray-shielded, there would have been no rebel attack at all.
Generally speaking, I agree with what you are saying, but this point is logically incorrect. If the shaft were particle shielded it wouldn't have been able to serve as a ventilation shaft.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Batman »

That depends heavily on how particle shielding works. If it's two-way (as heavily implied by the old EU and the fact that it, well, wasn't particle shielded for some reason) then yes, absolutely. If however particle shields are semipermeable (matter can get out but not get in) one has to wonder why they didn't do it.
'Blocks matter both ways' particle shields also means they have to drop those shields every time they launch parasite craft (which as I recall is actually supported by the old EU) or missile weapons (which I don't think is ever mentioned, everybody seems to be able to Launch concussion missiles or proton torpedoes with impunity).
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Batman wrote:That depends heavily on how particle shielding works. If it's two-way (as heavily implied by the old EU and the fact that it, well, wasn't particle shielded for some reason) then yes, absolutely. If however particle shields are semipermeable (matter can get out but not get in) one has to wonder why they didn't do it.
'Blocks matter both ways' particle shields also means they have to drop those shields every time they launch parasite craft (which as I recall is actually supported by the old EU) or missile weapons (which I don't think is ever mentioned, everybody seems to be able to Launch concussion missiles or proton torpedoes with impunity).
True. I am assuming that they do block both directions in most cases. Physics dictates that this must be the case. I would suggest that they are actually two way shields in more ways that one. In addition to blocking attacks from both directions, they also permit attacks from both directions. While this doesn't mean that blasters can penetrate shields, it does mean that physical attacks often can. In TPM we see droidikas poke their weapons through their own shields as a means of shooting through them*. At a sufficiently low speed, it also allows an attacker to roll a thermal detonator under it, or for an entire Jedi to dive under it(as shown in Clone Wars, A War on Two Fronts and Landing at Point Rain respectively).

That might also be the key to the sucess of the proton torpedo attack, it was able to travel at enough of an angle to get through without really interacting with the shields in a way they were designed to block(as it would otherwise block its own exhaust). That would also explain why the Rebel fighters had to attack through the trench and fire their torpedoes at an odd angle that made them more likely to miss. It was after all only after the comment about ray shields that Wedge state it to be impossible.

Ray shields, at least in some cases can also block physical attacks, as shown in ROTS. When trapped by what is referred to as ray shields, neither Obi-Wan nor Anakin consider the possibility of something like levitating a lightsaber beyond the shield and attacking the emitter. Though tactics like that are things we don't tend to see Jedi of the Old Republic doing. That is something I would more expect to see from Timothy Zahn.

* I would also suggest that capital ships use exactly the same trick as droidikas, though in this case it is a question of the shields rather than the weapons moving. Given that we know they are hull hugging, it would not be difficult to poke the weapons through in order to fire. It would also fit the fact that Anakin is successfully able to attack the main weapon of Malvolence as it is preparing to fire, even though he lacked a sufficient number of fighters to penetrate the bridge shields. Though it would seem odd that this sort of attack is not more common, most turbolaser barrels aren't a very large target. And the hole in the shields doesn't need to be very large in the first place, no one ever suggest shooting droidika shields in the same fashion even though they visibly poke through.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Ted C »

I'm wondering if anyone sees what I was doing there.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
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"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Ted C wrote:I'm wondering if anyone sees what I was doing there.
What, the blaming Vader part?
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Ted C »

Adam Reynolds wrote:
Ted C wrote:I'm wondering if anyone sees what I was doing there.
What, the blaming Vader part?
More the "play along as if it was a real conspiracy theory" part.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by biostem »

If the exhaust port had gas constantly coming out of it, then a shield that blocked it couldn't be present. As others have noted in other threads, however, there really isn't any reason that they couldn't have put a grate over the opening...
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Batman »

Step 1:Protorp the grate out of existence.
Step 2: Same as happened in the movie.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by amigocabal »

Batman wrote:Step 1:Protorp the grate out of existence.
Step 2: Same as happened in the movie.
It would have required two trench runs though, giving the Death Star an extra chance to thwart the attack.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Batman »

No it wouldn't. Just time the two torpedo launches a quarter second or so apart.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by biostem »

Batman wrote:No it wouldn't. Just time the two torpedo launches a quarter second or so apart.

You're acting like Luke's shot *wasn't* some 1 in a million miracle... Just putting the 1 grate in would have been enough to allow the Death Star to destroy Yavin IV...
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Batman »

No I'm not. The shot that actually killed the reactor was one in a million. Taking out the grating (and timing it so it would allow for that one-in-a-million shot) would be child's play with 1970s Technology.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Q99 »

Wasn't there a prior surface hit before the main hit? That'd hit the grating anyway, it is a much simpler task than getting the curved shot to go down.

Frankly, we don't know the exhaust needs of the DS, so I'm unsure about adding obstructions on that side. Would it cause a build up? Would it rapidly deteriorate and melt anyway? Would particle shielding trap the exhaust anyway? I don't know how it'd work. Heck, for all I know it's impressive that they got it *down* to two meters.

IMO, probably the most obvious failing was the lack of fighter deployment- not Vader's fault to be sure, considering he lead the only squadron out there to excellent effect.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Ted C »

biostem wrote:If the exhaust port had gas constantly coming out of it, then a shield that blocked it couldn't be present. As others have noted in other threads, however, there really isn't any reason that they couldn't have put a grate over the opening...
Or put a bend in the pipe somewhere.
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"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Q99 »

Ted C wrote:
biostem wrote:If the exhaust port had gas constantly coming out of it, then a shield that blocked it couldn't be present. As others have noted in other threads, however, there really isn't any reason that they couldn't have put a grate over the opening...
Or put a bend in the pipe somewhere.
If it can handle a right-angle turn going in, it can almost certainly handle a gentler bend.

And sorta like a grate, I do wonder if a right-hand turn in the exhaust system may cause problems. If there's a buildup of pressure or heat or however it works...

Grates, bends... I'll say again, we don't know the engineering and we don't actually have anything to base the idea that these solutions can be safely implemented. Obstructions, on the whole, tend to be something you don't want in exhaust. Perhaps they could do so, but at the cost of having to make the vent notably wider to make up the difference. We just don't know, and it's really easy to criticize when one is willing to assume there's no engineering complications.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Elheru Aran »

What about a U-bend though? Or even a *series* of them. Frankly, that one exhaust port that just happens to lead directly to the reactor is fucking stupid and highly contrived.
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Re: Death Star Conspiracy

Post by Crazedwraith »

Elheru Aran wrote:What about a U-bend though? Or even a *series* of them. Frankly, that one exhaust port that just happens to lead directly to the reactor is fucking stupid and highly contrived.
I never got why people thought there was a pipe directly to the reactor. Dodanna said ' A direct hit will start a chain reaction'. Torpedeo into a reactor blowing up a whole station isn't much of a chain to me.
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