Yoda and Obi-Wan's endgame?

[Havok]

That is completely fucking stupid.
So they are just training Luke to not join the Sith?

Then just leave him on fucking Tatooine.

[Baffalo]

I'm with Simon on this one. Vader is the last of the classically trained Jedi. He's the last one who is a known commodity to Palpatine, because he was groomed for years before assuming the mantle of Vader. He was the right hand of the Emperor and sent to personally enforce his will, assuring the authority of all but the Grand Moffs and even having the authority to kill lesser Moffs. Sure, the Emperor is more powerful, hence why he wasn't beaten down by Vader long before, though that could also be grief for destroying all that he knew and building an entire empire of evil.

The thing that bugs me though, is that I'm not entirely sure the Emperor would've placed all his eggs in one basket. Even if we discount the EU, would Palpatine really have gone without setting up a backup for Vader, should Vader ever become a threat? Vader was actively trying to recruit Luke to become his own right hand and kill the Emperor. Should Vader make a move, would the Emperor have really hesitated because he was losing a valuable asset like Vader? Hell no. He would've bitch slapped Vader back into place or killed him on the spot. I don't think the long-term political stability of the Empire depended solely on Vader. Whether you include his political scheming in the prequel trilogy or not, the man doesn't rise to be Emperor of an entire galactic empire by being a complete retard. Jar Jar Binks as a senator not withstanding.

Of course, that's just my personal belief. The Emperor also had this rather annoying habit of trying to look into the future to predict everything and he wasn't always spot on with it, so he probably felt he could just look into the future and foresee everything Vader planned to do, and then make plans to work around anything Vader threw his way. By the time Endor happened, the Emperor was so reliant on his ability to foresee events that when it failed him, he was caught unawares, which is why he died.

[Arawn Fenn]

Yeah, I've heard these handwavy ideas that Palpatine used his Force Powers to instill confidence into the Imperial fleet, and that they all panicked and became incompetent when he died or something. Nothing in the movie really suggests this happened, so I guess it's EU stuff.

It's not the battle meditation per se that I'm talking about, but the direct effects of Palpatine's death, which appears to have stunned the Imperial forces.

You don't even really need that, though.

The key thing is that Palpatine had an escape shuttle. We know this because Luke used it to get out. And it seems fair to say that, hypothetically, Palpatine makes it to that shuttle faster than Luke dragging Vader. So if not killed by Vader, Palpatine easily could have survived the efforts of Lando and Wedge.

[Baffalo]

You don't even really need that, though.

The key thing is that Palpatine had an escape shuttle. We know this because Luke used it to get out. And it seems fair to say that, hypothetically, Palpatine makes it to that shuttle faster than Luke dragging Vader. So if not killed by Vader, Palpatine easily could have survived the efforts of Lando and Wedge.

This is entirely feasible, given that we see every ship in the Rebel fleet fleeing the Death Star. Considering Luke would have absolutely no way of immediately changing the IFF on the shuttle, if it was broadcasting a giant "THE EMPEROR IS HERE" signal, the entire Rebel fleet would've begun shooting. What most likely happened was the Emperor probably had a shuttle kept in reserve for his private use, maintained and ready, and then he would just fly the thing off, blending in with the countless other shuttles flying off in a panic.

[Havok]

Does the novelization say it is the Emperor's private shuttle, because it had a pretty distinct lack of security around it for Air Force One.

[Replicant]

You guys are overthinking this.

Ben wants Luke to kill Vader, period. He dismisses the idea that Vader can be saved ("more machine now than man, twisted and ee-vill"). Yoda wants Luke to train more Jedi ("pass on what you have learned"). The "plan" is for Luke to kill Vader, train up a bunch of Jedi and eventually take out the Emperor, who no longer has disgruntled Jedi to recruit. Yoda warns Luke not to underestimate the Emperor, but Luke didn't really heed Yoda's warning anyway, so guess what he does! He goes headlong into a direct confrontation with both Sith Lords. Fortunately, Luke was right, his dad had some conscience left and Sidious got his ass bodyslammed.

The point is that Luke is his own man now. He doesn't need advice from Yoda or Ben anymore (which is good, because as the prequels showed, the old Jedi Order was seriously fucked up) and follows his own midichlorians conscience and good judgement.

What did you think Obi-Wan meant when he said "That boy is our last hope..."?

He knew that The Other was locked up and being tortured. Ben was being pessimistic.

Obi Wan knew he was a ghost who cannot teach someone and that Yoda had maybe a year or two of life left.

Who was going to train Leia?

[Havok]

Worst line of the OT.

[Arawn Fenn]

There's always Prune Face!

[Korgeta]

Yeah, I've heard these handwavy ideas that Palpatine used his Force Powers to instill confidence into the Imperial fleet, and that they all panicked and became incompetent when he died or something. Nothing in the movie really suggests this happened, so I guess it's EU stuff.

It's not the battle meditation per se that I'm talking about, but the direct effects of Palpatine's death, which appears to have stunned the Imperial forces.

You don't even really need that, though.

The key thing is that Palpatine had an escape shuttle. We know this because Luke used it to get out. And it seems fair to say that, hypothetically, Palpatine makes it to that shuttle faster than Luke dragging Vader. So if not killed by Vader, Palpatine easily could have survived the efforts of Lando and Wedge.

Palpatine never struck to me as Usain Bolt by the time of ROTJ, besides even if the escaping officers bothered to help Palpatine fly the shuttle out (no one was caring about vader as Luke dragged him) was he really going to escape a rebel dominated battle? And then try to explain the loyal citizens of the empire that he has lost a second death star and god knows how many troops? (oh and teddy bears subduing his elite guards)

[Simon_Jester]

The thing that bugs me though, is that I'm not entirely sure the Emperor would've placed all his eggs in one basket. Even if we discount the EU, would Palpatine really have gone without setting up a backup for Vader, should Vader ever become a threat?...

Of course, that's just my personal belief. The Emperor also had this rather annoying habit of trying to look into the future to predict everything and he wasn't always spot on with it, so he probably felt he could just look into the future and foresee everything Vader planned to do, and then make plans to work around anything Vader threw his way. By the time Endor happened, the Emperor was so reliant on his ability to foresee events that when it failed him, he was caught unawares, which is why he died.

All true. On the other hand, I'm describing Yoda's plan. Yoda may not be aware of all that has taken place. He may overestimate Vader's importance to Palpatine's plans. He may assume there is only Palpatine and Vader to deal with, when that is not true.

This is entirely feasible, given that we see every ship in the Rebel fleet fleeing the Death Star. Considering Luke would have absolutely no way of immediately changing the IFF on the shuttle, if it was broadcasting a giant "THE EMPEROR IS HERE" signal, the entire Rebel fleet would've begun shooting. What most likely happened was the Emperor probably had a shuttle kept in reserve for his private use, maintained and ready, and then he would just fly the thing off, blending in with the countless other shuttles flying off in a panic.

Luke could have just kept shouting into the radio "This is Luke Skywalker! Capture, don't shoot!"

Then again, there's no good reason for the Emperor to want a huge beacon that says "I am here!" on his personal ship. That just makes him target practice for anyone with a grudge. And there are probably a lot of people, including seemingly normal Imperial citizens with no real ties to the Rebellion, with a grudge against him.

Palpatine never struck to me as Usain Bolt by the time of ROTJ, besides even if the escaping officers bothered to help Palpatine fly the shuttle out (no one was caring about vader as Luke dragged him) was he really going to escape a rebel dominated battle? And then try to explain the loyal citizens of the empire that he has lost a second death star and god knows how many troops? (oh and teddy bears subduing his elite guards)

The shuttle may have had an autopilot (Star Wars is full of robots). Palpatine might not have escaped a rebel dominated battlefield, but it would be better than sitting on the Death Star while it exploded, so no problem there.

As to the rest, the Death Star's existence is a secret. Most people don't know about it and won't realize what's happened for a good long while- long enough to start spinning the incontrovertible evidence however he likes.

It's a problem, but it's a smaller problem than being dead. Palpatine has nothing to lose by remembering to bring a lifeboat.

[Replicant]

Maybe Palpatine did have something to lose by bringing a life boat.

Palpatine had "seen" through the force what was going to happen. So from that point of view there is no reason. But what if you did anyway. To bring an escape craft is to doubt your own abiility to see through the Force.

I am no expert but I can easily see that Confidence is a major factor in how well you can use the Dark Side. Confidence, arrogance, anger, these all feed the Dark Side and they are all probably the cornerstone to Palpatine's use of it.

To plan an escape route when your own foresight has shown you to be safe is to doubt the Force and doubt your own abilities. Couldn't that doubt actually hurt his ability to use the Force?

[fordlltwm]

I don't see why so much importance is being given to the shuttle, if he arrived in it, and left it in his personal docking bay why would it become his super secret escape craft all of a sudden, if memory serves he hadn't been there that long by that point anyway.

[TheHammer]

I don't see why so much importance is being given to the shuttle, if he arrived in it, and left it in his personal docking bay why would it become his super secret escape craft all of a sudden, if memory serves he hadn't been there that long by that point anyway.

That's my thinking as well. He arrived on a shuttle, it would make sense for that shuttle to sit and wait until if/when he was ready to depart. Or it could just as easily been any shuttle we've ever seen. It didn't show in super abilities to set it apart. I'd expect an "escape shuttle" to be something launched at high speed more akin to an escape pod, with obviously some additional defensive/speed/maneuberability aspects that would make it superior to a regular shuttle.

[Arawn Fenn]

Palpatine never struck to me as Usain Bolt by the time of ROTJ

He doesn't have to be ( though he could probably use the Force for some assistance ), because Luke when dragging Vader was moving relatively slowly, and Luke got out.

[streetad]

If we are going with the idea of the Force as some kind of sentient entity with plans of its own, then maybe Yoda and Obi Wan had finally learned to surrender themselves to its guidance without any clear idea of what would happen.

Or maybe they were just two broken old men who've spent the last 20 years in hiding and Luke was always going to be a long-shot...

[StarSword]

Does the novelization say it is the Emperor's private shuttle, because it had a pretty distinct lack of security around it for Air Force One.

The rest of the security was probably a little busy with the fact that the friggin' Death Star was about to blow up under them. Recall, if you will, that as Luke is dragging Vader we see multiple Imps running around in a panic.

Though, I do recall reading in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology that Palpy's personal shuttle went up with the DS2 (it was in the entry on cloaking devices), so that indicates it was a run-of-the-mill Lambda.

[biostem]

Couldn't things be even simpler that what's been said - Obi-wan and Yoda knew time was very short, and wanted *some* vestige of the Jedi order to carry on. Obi-wan already had this connection with Luke, who showed potential, so why not provide what tutelage he and Yoda can, so as to steer him in the "right" direction. Even if Luke were never to face Vader and Palpatine, he could have began training the next generation of Jedi, who could someday do so...

[Havok]

Does the novelization say it is the Emperor's private shuttle, because it had a pretty distinct lack of security around it for Air Force One.

The rest of the security was probably a little busy with the fact that the friggin' Death Star was about to blow up under them. Recall, if you will, that as Luke is dragging Vader we see multiple Imps running around in a panic.

Though, I do recall reading in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology that Palpy's personal shuttle went up with the DS2 (it was in the entry on cloaking devices), so that indicates it was a run-of-the-mill Lambda.

You think the Secret Service has any other duties other than protecting the President in a crisis? That is exactly the same security I would expect from the Empire for Palpatine. If it were ImpNavy-1, it would be so heavily guarded as to be ridiculous. I would go with the second bit there from the EGWT that his personal shuttle was elsewhere.

[natakube]

Jo i'm new to this forum

Didn't read all above post (lots of text ) just my oppinion.

Yoda and Obi wan wanted to rebuild the jedi order somehow, but there was a problem, it kinda happened late , i mean they were both very old, and even tho that shouldn't change much, yoda wasn't likely to be around long, the whole kill the emperor plan was most likely something for the future, it all got into a fast pace when they went to the deathstar to help leia. Don't forget they both said he was far from being ready to face vader and the emperor, it's what they wanted eventually, not to be done so quick.

The thing with 'there is another', idk if they meant another skywalker or another strong force sensitive (because Leia using the force only happend in the comics after the emperor was destroyed, except for the jedi telepathic convo she had when luke called out to her). But i'm pretty sure they didn't mean, if luke dies, no biggy, leia will kill vader and sidious, because come on, they barely trained luke, and they haven't spoken to leia in years.

It was 'A new hope' not a superman who only needed a little bit of training to defeat the strongest person in the galaxy :>.

It turned out great (kinda) but i'm sure it wasn't the plan to make luke fight both dark lords without any real training.

Btw the seduction thing, idk he might have fallen, he might not have, isn't that somewhat the risk with every jedi who confront a sith as strong as sidious? It's basicly willpower.

[Kreller1]

The thing with 'there is another', idk if they meant another skywalker or another strong force sensitive (because Leia using the force only happend in the comics after the emperor was destroyed, except for the jedi telepathic convo she had when luke called out to her). But i'm pretty sure they didn't mean, if luke dies, no biggy, leia will kill vader and sidious, because come on, they barely trained luke, and they haven't spoken to leia in years.

"There is another" was laid out quite plainly in ROTJ. Yoda tells Luke the force is strong in his family, and that there is another Skywalker. Luke, speaking to ghost Obi states that Leia is his sister. Obi confirms this is correct, and to bury his feelings about her. Later, in the ewok village, Luke tells Leia that his sister has the Force, and then that *she* is his sister. Just because we don't see Leia wield Force powers, doesn't mean she is not Force sensitive.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is also implied that Leia is using the Force in Return of the Jedi, when she senses that Luke escaped from the Death Star. She might even have been doing so in The Empire Strikes Back, since I'm not sure if a non-Force sensitive person could have gotten Luke's telepathic message.

[Havok]

I wouldn't say it is implied at all. I would say it is Luke reaching out to her. Leia says things like she "feels it" and other vague shit, but clearly Luke is reaching out to her on Bespin. The reason we know Leia has the Force is from dialogue.

[lPeregrine]

I don't really see where the idea that the Emperor is unbeatable is coming from. After all, Luke came pretty close to cutting the Emperor's head off with his first swing, and all it takes is Vader deciding that it's time to dispose of the Emperor and argue philosophy with his son later and switching off his lightsaber instead of blocking. Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan knew, at least in some general sense, that the final battle would come down to more than just who is the better fighter in a duel? And it even fits well with what we see: lots of training about WHY to use the force and what it means to be a jedi, not much emphasis on dueling.

And of course there's also a couple other options:

4) Luke takes Vader's "rule the galaxy together" offer, they march into the death star and execute the Emperor. The master manipulator is gone, leaving his enforcer and a clueless farmboy to attempt to hold the Empire's factions together. The Empire collapses into civil war, and the rebellion exploits the chaos. Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan know that even if Luke falls to the dark side it's probably going to be this result and good wins in the end.

5) Yoda and Obi-Wan know that Luke has no chance of success, but have seen enough of the future to know that Skywalker family drama will be important in the final battle, and have done the best they can to train Luke in the hope that his confrontation with the Emperor will be enough of a distraction that the rebellion wins the battle. And what do we see? The Emperor using his death star to taunt Luke instead of efficiently killing the rebel fleet, and the fighters are already on their way to blow up the death star before the Emperor dies.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wouldn't say it is implied at all. I would say it is Luke reaching out to her. Leia says things like she "feels it" and other vague shit, but clearly Luke is reaching out to her on Bespin. The reason we know Leia has the Force is from dialogue.

The scene in The Empire Strikes Back is extremely ambiguous. However, Luke isn't shown contacting her in Return of the Jedi but she still knows he's alive. Its not certain she was using the Force, but its certainly a plausible interpretation of that scene.

[Havok]

It could just be "woman's intuition" in that scene for all we know. Like I said though, we know from the dialogue. I am guessing they had Leia's blood after she was born and did the midichlorian check.