X-Men vs. Avengers

[Ahriman238]

Thumbed through the first issue of the new ultra-ultra-crossover can't-miss event from Marvel. My thoughts on reading it can be summarized thus:
WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT??!!?

Really. The Phoenix Force is returning to earth, btw that's lost a lot of impact in all the reprints and times they've done something similar, and the Avengers are gearing up to prevent the end of the world at the hands of a known world-destroyer. Luckily they know exactly where it is going and who it's next host will be, one Hope Summers who (I guess?) is Jean and Scott's kid from an alternate future. Or something like that. But sine the plot demands that Scott grip the idiot ball like he was facing down a nose tackle, he decides that the return of Phoenix is a good thing, because Hope may or may not be able to restore the mutant population. Or they can use her as a human nuclear deterrent and play global politics with the big boys. So when Cap and the nice boys from SHIELD turn up to take Hope into protective custody Scott tells them to piss off, acts like a carciture of a self-righteous ass, and fires first lest there be any doubt who was in the wrong.

I can see they're off to a great start.

The damndest thing is, I lked the last event (Fear Itself) a lot even with the eye-rolling premise. I certainly don't think Thor's death will last longer than, say, 18 months but the buildup to it was excellent. This... already feels like Civil War, a bunch of people we're supposed to like making asses of themselves and brawling over a contrived issue. As opposed to acting like adults, or even late-middle schoolers.

[Ire]

Heh, It was sudden for me too, I was actually hyped for FI. AVX was met with more of an apathetic motivation to see what happens with Wanda

[Majin Gojira]

Yeah, honestly, this is a pretty shallow event compared to what's come before (which was a mixed bag with its ups and downs).

[Crazedwraith]

They killed Thor again? Was he recently killed off and brought back anyway? Seriously has no writer realised the term 'comic book death' is generally sceen as a bad thing?

And even aside from that why would you kill him off now when he's about to be in a movie? Shouldn't they be resetting the Avengers line up to the basic Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye line up to make it easy for viewers of the movie to make the jump to comic books?

[Grumman]

Luckily they know exactly where it is going and who it's next host will be, one Hope Summers who (I guess?) is Jean and Scott's kid from an alternate future. Or something like that.

Looking at one of the wikis, she's not Jean and Scott's kid, but she is Scott's (adopted) granddaughter.

I haven't read any comics in a while, but that seems like a perfect set-up for Scott's response. Forget the desire to reverse M-day or use her as a deterrent, just go with a simple, admirable "She is my granddaughter. Men who thought as you do murdered her mother and killed her adopted mother. I don't care if you think your cause is just, I'm not handing her over to you."

And even aside from that why would you kill him off now when he's about to be in a movie? Shouldn't they be resetting the Avengers line up to the basic Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye line up to make it easy for viewers of the movie to make the jump to comic books?

No, they really shouldn't. Creating a new comic set in the movieverse could work, like they did with the Ultimate universe back around 2000, but trying to twist the 616 universe into fitting the movies is just going to cause more problems.

[Tsyroc]

I'd already seen a bit of the lead in to this and decided to stay far away from it.

Cyclops has been acting like a grade A douche for awhile now so it wasn't much more of stretch for him to go down the path he did in making his retarded decision about the Phoenix force. He created the current X-Force team as essentially the mutant hit squad who go after their enemies and kill them. Granted they probably should have been doing that to some of them a long time ago but Cyclops was still a douche in the way he went about it. Not giving a crap about making X-23 be a weapon again etc... So he's got a really us vs. them and we're at war attitude about a lot of stuff. A little of his old self showed through when he complemented Rockslide and Anole for fighting crime in San Francisco.

I've been getting kind of sick of the whole mutants as a specific race separate from humans (super or normal). I even thought that in one of the X-Men books Hope Summers let Xavier and Magento have it for thinking that way in the past instead of everyone being human beings. Cyclops has stated that the M Day thing was an attempt at genocide against mutants because it involuntarily removed the powers from so many mutants. I thought his attitude was supposed to be the basis for the "Schism" story line, but I'm not really sure what that is about. I thought he and Wolverine disagreed about something. I'm also pretty sure that the Beast is not on board with whatever Cyclops has been doing.

Incidently, the Children's Crusade shows that while the Scarlet Witch was the instrument for M Day, the cause was actually Doctor Doom. At least I think that's how we're meant to interpret that story.

As for Thor being dead again. I don't know what the deal is with that. I got kind of annoyed with Fear Itself because of Odin being a dick because he had a prophecy that this could end in Thor's death. So everyone go against all of Odin's teachings about protecting the mortals because Thor might die if they do that. WTF? At least Thor is still around in the Ultimate Universe. All the other Norse gods are essentially dead and Thor's back to using technology to replicate his old powers but he's got the big frickin' hammer back so that's cool. The stuff with Reed Richards being a super villain in the Ultimate Universe is something else though.

[Ahriman238]

They killed Thor again? Was he recently killed off and brought back anyway? Seriously has no writer realised the term 'comic book death' is generally sceen as a bad thing?

And even aside from that why would you kill him off now when he's about to be in a movie? Shouldn't they be resetting the Avengers line up to the basic Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye line up to make it easy for viewers of the movie to make the jump to comic books?

I don't believe for a moment the death will stick. But I will say it was handled pretty well. The Serpent, Odin's evil twin (yes, literally and seriously) who is empowered by the collective fear of humanity escaped his prison where he was bound by Odin, who also edited his brother from history so no one would try and free him for their own ends *cough*Loki*cough.* Ancient Prophecy, and the rules of the First Gods say the Serpent can only be killed by Thor, and only at the cost of his own life.

Fearing this particular outcome, Odin slaps Thor around and brings him to Asgard in chains while he prepares to level the earth and kill every man, woman, and child. This Odin reasons, would reduce the Serpent's power to the point where he could be safely imprisoned again. Thor "escapes" gets beaten within an inch of his life and taken back to Asgard, where he finally convinces his dad that he isn't willing to let earth be destroyed to perserve his own life. So Thor fights, clad in the finest Asgardian armor and wielding Odin's sword, and dies.

[Eframepilot]

Thor is already back, he's in X-Men vs. Avengers.

[Havok]

Uhhh... since when has Cyclops not been an arrogant ass that only cares about mutants and Jean Grey to the point of stupidity?

That said, technically Spider-Man is an Avenger, so the X-Men are toast.

[Tsyroc]

Uhhh... since when has Cyclops not been an arrogant ass that only cares about mutants and Jean Grey to the point of stupidity?

He's even more of a dick about it than he was in the past.

That said, technically Spider-Man is an Avenger, so the X-Men are toast.

Oh yes. The Secret Wars beat down of the X-Men by Spider-Man was outstanding.

[Lonestar]

Thor is already back, he's in X-Men vs. Avengers.

Yup. Loki kinda finangled him back, IIRC.

[Enigma]

Though a side issue. I know a few years ago there was a Superman\X-men crossover in which the X-men thought at first that Supes was a bad guy and tries to fight him.

Does anyone know which issue this was in?

[Ahriman238]

I don't remember a Superman/X-men crossover. There was a JLA/Avengers crossover something like 5 years ago though. It was pretty funny in that the JLA thought the Avengers were apathetic (supervillains as world leaders, despoiled nations, anti-mutant lynch mobs) and the Avengers assumed the JLA were another Squadron Supreme, i.e. superhuman overlords, well-intentioned extremists controlling all aspects of society.

[Tsyroc]

Though a side issue. I know a few years ago there was a Superman\X-men crossover in which the X-men thought at first that Supes was a bad guy and tries to fight him.

Does anyone know which issue this was in?

There might have a bit on that when Marvel and DC did those cross-overs battles that fans got to vote on, which was then followed by the Amalgam comics where Marvel and DC characters were mixed together.

[mr friendly guy]

So let me get this right about Thor.

After Avengers Disassembled Thor becomes uber smart wise after drinking from the Mirmir's well. He outsmarts Those Who Lived Above in Shadow and becomes so powerful he blocks Mangog without lifting a hand, and utterly annihilates him with one word.

But to bring him back, Marvel has dumbed him down back to stupid level again. Thor decides to reverse character development, and bring Odin back, because like Odin was really really smart (snigger). To top it all off, Thor brings Loki back, the same Loki who has bedeviled Thor so many times, and had a big hand in bringing Ragnorak to Asgard, so much that Thor punished him by taking his head off (and rendering the still alive Loki bodiless).

Now it turns out Odin has a brother which no else knows about, just like how Asgard fought a war with the Dark Gods which no one else in Asgard knows about, (both clumbsy attempts at retcons if I ever saw one). Thor of course gets killed in this battle. But not before we see him get humiliated by some deviant in some limited series which I didn't even bother finishing, and beaten by Rulk (a few years ago).

I am sure glad I stopped collecting after Avengers Disassembled.

[mr friendly guy]

Though a side issue. I know a few years ago there was a Superman\X-men crossover in which the X-men thought at first that Supes was a bad guy and tries to fight him.

Does anyone know which issue this was in?

Is this the same comic where Bishop manages to hurt Martian Manhunter by using his fists, despite the fact he doesn't actually have super strength. Or the one where Venom gives Supes a run for his money?

If thats the one you are thinking of, its the All Access limited series. Access was the character created by DC vs Marvel, which is rarely seen these days, but in his own limited series he flitters between the Marvel and DC universes.

[Enigma]

Though a side issue. I know a few years ago there was a Superman\X-men crossover in which the X-men thought at first that Supes was a bad guy and tries to fight him.

Does anyone know which issue this was in?

Is this the same comic where Bishop manages to hurt Martian Manhunter by using his fists, despite the fact he doesn't actually have super strength. Or the one where Venom gives Supes a run for his money?

If thats the one you are thinking of, its the All Access limited series. Access was the character created by DC vs Marvel, which is rarely seen these days, but in his own limited series he flitters between the Marvel and DC universes.

No, this was I think Silver Era Supes. I remember this crossover being mentioned somewhere years ago. I'd like to know which comic it was in.

[Ahriman238]

Picked up second issue, already we have some ridiculously tilted fights and DRAMA! by pitting friends against friends, because that's really where Civil War was lacking.

For the scorecard, the Red Hulk (who's an Avenger now, and General Ross) beat the crap out of Colosuss (who is now the Juggernaught to, when and how did this happen?) because Peter went berserk and nearly destroyed the support holding up Utopia, then realized what he was doing and submitted himself to a blugeoning because "Cyttorak doesn't care who bleeds at his altar, only that someone does."

Cap punched out Scott.

Magneto, using Colosuss as his implement to open up the counterattack, wrecked the new Helicarrier and was last seen fightin Iron Man. "And if you think that sounds like a one-sided fight (it clearly does) you've never met Tony Stark (and what the hell is that suppoed to mean?)

Namor was taking on Luke Cage and Ben Grim at the same time, no suprises there. He monologued a bit about his motives for fighting with the X-men, which was a suprise. It seems Namor believes in Scott's leadership, and is tickled by an apparent lost cause. "There may be some who stand with the many against the few, but never Prince Namor of Atlantis."

And if this story happened 30 years ago, the inclusion of Namor would be more-or-less an "I win" button.

Illyana Rasputin is apparently alive and totally not evil (what? when? how?) and lured Dr. Strange into Limbo to fight him on her home turf. Somehow, I really don't see that working out for her.

The girl everyone is fighting over, Hope Summers, incinerates Wolverine (doubtlessly he'll get better) and flees the island.

[Darksider]

Uhhh... since when has Cyclops not been an arrogant ass that only cares about mutants and Jean Grey to the point of stupidity?

It seems to me that cyke has always been a sort of hard-ass leader type who, despite all his faults, occasionally gives a damn about the people who work for him. Mind you this is all based on pre-2002 stuff because after I saw that image of Jean busting up Cyclops and Emma's *sigh* telepathic affair, (and that is a sentence I honestly never expected to write) I immediately gave up having anything to do with X-men. I reluctantly saw First Class on DVD a while back, but that was it.

As I understand it, after Jean's most recent death, they really went overboard in turning Cyclops into a fucking Douchebag, which really pissed me off since he was my favorite character as a kid.

[Tsyroc]

For the scorecard, the Red Hulk (who's an Avenger now, and General Ross) beat the crap out of Colosuss (who is now the Juggernaught to, when and how did this happen?) because Peter went berserk and nearly destroyed the support holding up Utopia, then realized what he was doing and submitted himself to a blugeoning because "Cyttorak doesn't care who bleeds at his altar, only that someone does."

Colossus became the Juggernaut during one of the Fear Itself tie-ins. In an attempt to weaken the possessed Cain Marko, Colossus, Kitty Pryde and Illyana (Colossus' sister Magik) went to Cyttorak's dimension to convince him to remove Marko's Juggernaut powers. Cyttorak agreed due to Marko doing the bidding of the person behind Fear Itself. Cyttorak then offers the Juggernaut power to one of the three and Colossus jumps in front of Illyana to prevent her from taking it. Colossus mentions that inherent in the power is a drive to make him want to destroy things, which is what Cyttorak always wanted.

Illyana Rasputin is apparently alive and totally not evil (what? when? how?) and lured Dr. Strange into Limbo to fight him on her home turf. Somehow, I really don't see that working out for her.

In the Fear Itself Peter and Kitty get Illyana out of prison to get her help in combating the Juggernaut. She's still not trusted and I think she was bound in such a way that she couldn't use her magic, just her teleporting powers. She was clearly willing to assume the role of Juggernaut when Peter jump between her and Cyttorak and received the power himself.


In general, the AvsX stuff still sounds like crap.

The premise is pretty stupid in itself. All the Avengers had to do was decide against taking Hope into custody but continue on with their plan to try and destroy the Phoenix force before it gets to Earth. Yes, they might have a better shot at it if they can observe and test Hope but as soon as they new Cyclops was going to be a douche about the issue they should have just left and concentrated on the Phoenix problem the best they could without access to Hope.

Heck, it wouldn't have hurt for either side to have asked Hope's opinion on what she wants to do.

[Tsyroc]

Uhhh... since when has Cyclops not been an arrogant ass that only cares about mutants and Jean Grey to the point of stupidity?

It seems to me that cyke has always been a sort of hard-ass leader type who, despite all his faults, occasionally gives a damn about the people who work for him. Mind you this is all based on pre-2002 stuff because after I saw that image of Jean busting up Cyclops and Emma's *sigh* telepathic affair, (and that is a sentence I honestly never expected to write) I immediately gave up having anything to do with X-men. I reluctantly saw First Class on DVD a while back, but that was it.

As I understand it, after Jean's most recent death, they really went overboard in turning Cyclops into a fucking Douchebag, which really pissed me off since he was my favorite character as a kid.

Pretty much how I feel about the character.

He was always a tight ass and by the book as a leader, but he had moments where he'd relax a bit. He definitely cared for his teammates, which I think was part of the reason he was such a tight ass as leader. He was very concerned about losing anyone or failing in any way. He also used to be one of the people who was very loyal to Professor X's ideals.

Now he's not really all that far removed from Magneto's original motivation. I don't know that he's entirely wrong given all the attacks that mutants and the school have had recently but he's been pretty shitty to some of his own people (Mutants) along the way.

[Stofsk]

This story sounds like typical Brian Michael Bendis hackery. I can't believe this guy a) is still employed by Marvel and b) fuckwit loser fatty nerds lap his shit up.

[Enigma]

Red Hulk's an Avenger? I thought he was a bad guy? Who's the Red Hulk?

[Ahriman238]

Red Hulk's an Avenger? I thought he was a bad guy? Who's the Red Hulk?

He was this guy who popped up out of nowhere, killed the Abombination, casually defeated She-Hulk, and fought Greenie himelf to a standstill.

He seemed to be connected to shadowy government figures who wanted a more controllable Hulk of their very own, and his next story was about his getting independence from his backers who tried to kill him after he failed to take out the Hulk.

Apparently, where Hulk gets stronger without apparent limit the angrier he gets, Red Hulk heats up enough to melt stone, and eventually overheats.

As for identity, it turns out he's no less than General Thunderbolt Ross. Banner's long-time nemesis.

Somehow, a Red She-Hulk became involved, she's Betty Ross. Banner's long-time girlfriend.

During the original Red Hulk story, Rick Jones became the new Abombination, though he insists on being called A-Bomb.

So you can see there is now literally no person in Bruce Banner's life who hasn't become super-strong thanks to Gamma Rays.

How Ross became an Avenger, I do not know.

[Tsyroc]

The Red Hullk became an Avengers because of Steve Rogers.

He found out that the Red Hulk was Ross and contacted him in helping out during times when it would be nice to have a Hulk on his side. Ross is onboard, trying to make up for many of the mistakes he's made. Most of the Avengers haven't been to keen about him showing up but since Rogers vouches for him and knows who he really is they've been going along with it. He's proven himself to a few of them but in general he's still distrusted. IIRC, Thor dished out a few cheap shots at him as payback for the Red Hulk kicking his ass in space.

The Red Hulk also has the power to draw power from anyone he's fighting. It allows him to get stronger and stronger (like the green Hulks anger/strength) thing. The drawback being that if he uses that ability too much it'll burn out his ability to change between being the Hulk or Ross.

I haven't seen the heating up or overheating bit come up lately in the Hulk or Avengers TPBs. He's also mostly been avoiding using his power syphoning ability. He got his ass kicked by the possessed Thing in Fear Itself because he wouldn't use that ability. He later did use it against a being who threatened to kill everyone on the Earth but it sort of backfired because of who that enemy was.