Why didn't they cut up Dooku's ship?

[FaxModem1]

In Attack of the Clones, Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda are trying to prevent Count Dooku from escaping Geonosis with his ship from the hangar. Thing is, you can make that really darn easy by just cutting a hull breach into Dooku's ship, preventing him from leaving the atmosphere of the planet. It would take all of thirty seconds to do so. Is a starship hull too tough for a lightsaber?

[Crazedwraith]

Umm. Because when they had the opportunity, Dooku was still there and would actively chop them up if they tried?

[Thanas]

Also, lightsabers can take a long time to cut through starship material as seen in TPM. I don't know if it is worth the chance to lower your guard and open yourself to an attack by one of the best (certainly the most efficient) swordsmen of all time. If it had been Yoda and another good fencer they might have gone for it with one of them holding Dooku off but Anakin and Obi-wan were no match for Dooku at that time.

[Patroklos]

Yoda could have just picked the thing up and bashed it against a wall, or something less dramatic like collapse the engine nozzles.

Anyone who has watched these movies knows the force is not use when it is convenient to the characters, but rather when it is convenient to the plot.

If I were Yoda I wouldn't be bothering with light sabers. I'd be popping of heads, pulling out eyes, throat ripping and if I have some spare seconds making contortionist artworks with the flick of a wrist. Presumably there is some mechanism in universe that prevents this, and I am sure it is contrived as hell.

[SCRawl]

The impression I've had is that while a Force-user can do those sorts of tricks against a non-Force-user with impunity, an opponent with Force abilities has a sort of static, almost passive defence against them. Otherwise the first move in every fight would be to just pick the other guy up and throw him against a wall. I can think of only one occasion on which a Jedi or Sith was thus incapacitated: Dooku v. Kenobi (round 2 in ROTS). Kenobi's weakness to the tactic might have been due to being distracted or momentarily depleted. I'll have to re-read the novel to see if there's any clue.

[atg]

Yoda could have just picked the thing up and bashed it against a wall, or something less dramatic like collapse the engine nozzles.

He was straining to stop the column that Dooku knocked over and you expect him to throw starships around like toys?

Presumably there is some mechanism in universe that prevents this, and I am sure it is contrived as hell.

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

[SCRawl]

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Why is using the Force to help you disembowel a guy with a lightsabre less apt to make you fall to the Dark Side than using your telekinesis to do so more or less directly? Either way your opponent's guts are on the floor, and you did it.

[Lord Revan]

I think you're looking it from a wrong perspective.

The Jedi aren't soldiers or assassins, they're more like very specialized cops. We all know cops don't just shoot a guy ranting "the sky is falling" and otherwise making a public nuisence, it's not the way it works, they'll try when ever it's possible to capture the target alive (aka arrest) and with minimal damage, how ever if the only to prevent harm to the public is to shoot the guy then it's done.

That's the difference between killing someone in lightsabre combat as opposed to simply ripping him to shreads with force based TK, intent is everything here.

as for Dooku's ship if you look carefully both Yoda and Dooku actually land several glancing blows to the ship without any apprent damage, suggesting the hull materials is at least somewhat lightsabre resistant.

[atg]

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Why is using the Force to help you disembowel a guy with a lightsabre less apt to make you fall to the Dark Side than using your telekinesis to do so more or less directly? Either way your opponent's guts are on the floor, and you did it.

I'm not sure if it's exactly stated in the movies but one of the novels states that using too much of the raw power of the force easily leads to falling to the dark side. Iirc it's in one the hand of thrawn books.

[Metahive]

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Why is using the Force to help you disembowel a guy with a lightsabre less apt to make you fall to the Dark Side than using your telekinesis to do so more or less directly? Either way your opponent's guts are on the floor, and you did it.

I'm not sure if it's exactly stated in the movies but one of the novels states that using too much of the raw power of the force easily leads to falling to the dark side. Iirc it's in one the hand of thrawn books.

Abusing power is what leads to the Dark Side, not just drawing on lots of Force. That's why Yoda crashing huge CIS transport ships via TK into each other didn't lead him to the Dark Side. Once more, why would snapping an attacker's neck via TK be "darker" than decapitating him with a lighstaber? Luke and Anakin have both been tempted to use their lightsabers for gratuitous violence after all, so I don't see the difference.
As for the Dooku fight, Yoda could have easily pulled Anakin and Obi-Wan away instead of desperately holding the column in place, but then Dooku couldn't have escaped. There are enough examples in canon of Force-users casually TKing other people that it shouldn't have been any sort of big problem.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yoda could have just picked the thing up and bashed it against a wall, or something less dramatic like collapse the engine nozzles.

He was straining to stop the column that Dooku knocked over and you expect him to throw starships around like toys?

Presumably there is some mechanism in universe that prevents this, and I am sure it is contrived as hell.

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Which to me always seemed strange - why not force push them out of the way and continue fighting?

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Why is using the Force to help you disembowel a guy with a lightsabre less apt to make you fall to the Dark Side than using your telekinesis to do so more or less directly? Either way your opponent's guts are on the floor, and you did it.

The Jedi themselves claim there's a metaphysical aspect to it, and I'm not sure I'd argue with them.

What a Jedi does with the Force, he does with his mind- every use of the Force is a direct extension of the Jedi's will overriding the ordinary laws of the universe. It's hardly farfetched to wonder if there's a feedback loop involved: if you use the Force to rip people apart by sheer force of will, it may impact your own psychological makeup.

What he does with a sword, he does with his own hands and muscles. There's no direct feedback, at least not on the metaphysical plane. He could still go 'axe crazy' or get the usual range of other psychiatric problems from fighting with swords, but he doesn't have to worry about sympathetic magic turning him demonic.

If we believe in such a feedback loop, the big difference between Jedi and Sith is that the Sith actively exploit that loop: letting their emotions fuel their Force powers, and then letting the uses they put their Force powers to feed back into their emotions. The Jedi suppress the loop by suppressing emotion, and refusing to use their powers in ways that would create feedback. So the Jedi are detached and the Sith are passionate, but at the same time the Jedi are more controlled and restrained. Whereas the Sith constantly fall prey to their own basic personality flaws because they're drawing power from those very flaws, and letting the flawed character of that power influence their decisions.

Yoda could have just picked the thing up and bashed it against a wall, or something less dramatic like collapse the engine nozzles.

He was straining to stop the column that Dooku knocked over and you expect him to throw starships around like toys?

Presumably there is some mechanism in universe that prevents this, and I am sure it is contrived as hell.

Yeah the whole falling to the darkside thing as a result is contrived as hell...

Which to me always seemed strange - why not force push them out of the way and continue fighting?

Maybe for the same reason Dooku didn't push them up to the ceiling and then drop them as a finishing move. A Force user's passive resistance to other people's Force powers may not just apply to enemies- on the contrary, it might be something they have to consciously override by mental discipline.

[SCRawl]

What a Jedi does with the Force, he does with his mind- every use of the Force is a direct extension of the Jedi's will overriding the ordinary laws of the universe. It's hardly farfetched to wonder if there's a feedback loop involved: if you use the Force to rip people apart by sheer force of will, it may impact your own psychological makeup.

This makes a certain amount of sense. What it doesn't explain is why a Jedi can't routinely win fights against other Jedi/Sith by just lifting them six inches off the ground using TK and saying "what you gonna do now?" This requires the "passive resistance" postulate already discussed, or some other explanation.

[Metahive]

Which to me always seemed strange - why not force push them out of the way and continue fighting?

Maybe for the same reason Dooku didn't push them up to the ceiling and then drop them as a finishing move. A Force user's passive resistance to other people's Force powers may not just apply to enemies- on the contrary, it might be something they have to consciously override by mental discipline.

There's no passive resistance to Force pushes and pulls. Whenever a Jedi or Sith wishes to resist it they have to exert some sort of conscious effort, like Anakin on Yavin IV in his first duel with Ventress. Every time they don't actively resist it they're thrown around without much problem.

It's just weak writing.

[Formless]

So let me get this straight. Its "weak writing" that the Jedi never use their telekinesis to blow people's heads up like in AKIRA or some shit... even though the closest to that we ever see in the films is Vader's famous force choke? Something which, I should note, he only ever does to non-force users outside of combat. Even though abuse of power and aggression are thematically and demonstratively linked in Star Wars to the Dark Side, evil incarnate? And lets not forget that the Force itself is created by living things and killing living things with the Force might be considered perverse by a quasi-religious order that wants to be as in tune with the Force as possible. Even though the lightsaber, an obviously terrible weapon except for self defense against blasters (assuming you have the necessary Force reflexes and training), is supposed to be a symbol of "a more civilized era" before the Grim Dark Future arrived and There Was Only War?

I love how people try to insert their own spank fantasies into discussions of force users. The way people like to extrapolate powers from things we don't actually have evidence for in the movies from a source (the Force) which we only have dialogue to understand it by and which in fact violate the themes of the movie, you would think people are watching a completely different film than I am. But hey, that's awesome, you know what? I think I understand why it is people think the Force felt de-mystified, and it ain't the fucking midi-chlorians (hell, I think I know what Lucas was going for with that, and most people are just fucking retards about it).

It was this attitude that people seemed to have about the Jedi and which, all told, the films seemed to cater too: that they are essentially just superheroes with a phony religion, so everyone can get their rocks off to how awesomez their abilities are. You know, the Force Unleashed, that's what people wanted, and want to see more of, and see everywhere in the fucking EU. Shit, I can even agree, that scene in the hangar was bad writing (well, all of AOTC starting from the second act was bad, but whatever) but not because of "lol, lets presume the Jedi can do something we have never seen them do and would consider an abhorrent way to use their power even if they could". My beef. Why the fuck does Yoda have a sword? He's fucking ancient! He died of old age just a few decades after, a pitiful fraction of his lifetime later. His very presence is out of place on any battlefield. But oh, right, gotta see more acrobatic superhero action bullshit!



On a somewhat less sarcastic note, we've seen Jedi survive all sorts of events that would make a normal human go *SPLAT!* or *BURNING OHMYGOD I AM ON FIRE! FUCKING LAVA!* and it never appears they even think about it let alone show any visible effort protecting themselves. Why is it so hard to imagine that Jedi/Sith really do have to wait for an opening in their opponent's force defenses (much like in fencing) before unleashing TK or Dark Side lightning?

[Formless]

What a Jedi does with the Force, he does with his mind- every use of the Force is a direct extension of the Jedi's will overriding the ordinary laws of the universe. It's hardly farfetched to wonder if there's a feedback loop involved: if you use the Force to rip people apart by sheer force of will, it may impact your own psychological makeup.

This makes a certain amount of sense. What it doesn't explain is why a Jedi can't routinely win fights against other Jedi/Sith by just lifting them six inches off the ground using TK and saying "what you gonna do now?" This requires the "passive resistance" postulate already discussed, or some other explanation.

Obviously, respond in kind. Duh. That's how Obi-Wan responded to Anikan's attempts to attack him with the force.

TK does appear to take some amount of concentration to achieve, after all (reference: Yoda VS Palpatine). It could easily be that while you are concentrating on levitating your opponents feet out from under him you have less attention to put into defending yourself from either Force attacks or weapons. And that's just two things a Jedi might need to worry about losing track of-- the Sith might start using telepathy to dig up thoughts and memories he can use against you psychologically (reference: Vader's constant badgering of Luke in Palpatine's throne room, culminating in his taunt that he will turn Luke's sister against him if he refuses to turn to the Dark Side). Dirty tricks like that complicate force combat in ways that the "Jedi as superheroes" paradigm misses.

[Metahive]

It's weak writing that Yoda didn't just pull Obi and Ani out of harms way instead of holding the column up. Pay some attention next time.

[Formless]

It's weak writing that Yoda didn't just pull Obi and Ani out of harms way instead of holding the column up. Pay some attention next time.

Who says I was addressing only your dumb ass?

But while I'm pointing out the obvious, here's a thought. Yoda didn't force push them out of the way because tossing around people with sword wounds, one of whom appears to be unconscious * and is missing a fucking hand, is the most goddamn idiotic thought that could have crossed Yoda's mind that day (worse even than "appearing in this film as a combatant"). And once again, Force TK requires concentration (reference: the famous "Size Matters Not" training scene from Empire begins with Luke failing a TK/meditation lesson because he is distracted by his sinking spaceship). So even if Yoda did push away the unconscious * Anakin and slashed up Obi-Wan, he would have to lower his guard with his lightsaber and concentrate on using the Force, like every other fucking scene where Yoda uses TK.

Thus, in your version of the movie, Dooku would still have gotten away, Anakin and Obi-Wan would be nursing god knows what injuries sustained by Yoda's carelessness, and Yoda would look like an impulsive jackass.

God. What kind of fucking imbecile are you? At least Prometheus Unbound had the good sense to merely ask why Yoda didn't do this rather than repeatedly asserting his badly written fanfiction in blatant ignorance of the films or common sense.









* Let me repeat for those who either don't get it or haven't watched the scene recently, because Anakin being unconscious cannot be overstated. Anakin is lying there with his eyes shut not moving starting from the point where Dooku throws him across the room with his hand missing. Neither he nor Obi-Wan move the entire two and a half minutes from when Yoda arrives to when Dooku escapes, and Anakin doesn't wake up and see his arm until after Dooku's ship is entering orbit. Yoda did not observe the duel between Dooku and our heroes, so he has no way of knowing just how bad their injuries are, except the most obvious ones like the missing hand or Obi-Wan's slashed leg. For all he knows, Dooku slammed a piece of the roof on Anakin's head for good measure (and Dooku's blast of Dark Lightning did in fact throw Anakin against a pile of rocks in the beginning of the fight). If someone is lying unconscious at the scene of a fight, the safe assumption is that they have a head injury and therefore should only be moved with extreme care so you don't make things worse. Generally, this means waiting for medics to arrive, though it wouldn't be surprising if Jedi are trained in first aid.

If you don't believe me, you can watch the scene yourselves. Duel starts at ten seconds past the five minute mark.

[CaptJodan]

What he does with a sword, he does with his own hands and muscles. There's no direct feedback, at least not on the metaphysical plane. He could still go 'axe crazy' or get the usual range of other psychiatric problems from fighting with swords, but he doesn't have to worry about sympathetic magic turning him demonic.

I suppose my biggest issue is that there is never really any distinction in the movies to actually support the theory. We have plenty of examples where sword fighting was to lead to the dark side. In fact, most people who fall or who almost fall are engaged in sword fights, not force attacks. Luke's failure at the cave, Luke nearly striking down his father on the DSII, Anakin and the Tuskan Raiders (the part we saw, anyway), Anakin killing Dooku, Anakin stopping Mace (ironically, in a non-lethal way, more Jedi way), etc.

It's clear that emotion plays a crucial role. That's all over the movies. Most or all of these examples have an emotional component to them. But all of these, which don't draw on quintessential dark side powers and are basically just sword play, either threaten to lead the character down the dark side, or actually do.

As an aside, Anakin's fall is one of interest in itself. Mace initially goes to apprehend Palpatine, but by the end of the fight, he concludes that Palpatine is too dangerous to leave alive. He's ready to kill Palpatine in cold blood (though obviously Palpatine was faking his weakness). I don't think we'll ever know if the Jedi could have actually captured Palpatine safely enough to put him on trial without Palps manipulating the courts, but I do wonder what effect it would have had on Mace.

Then we get Anakin stopping Mace, not by killing him, but by simply disarming him. In a way very similar to the way he disarmed Dooku, which was considered acceptable. He then laments what he'd done, seemingly regretting it. And then.....suddenly he's ready to kill younglings.

Again, all of these carried with it a great deal of emotion. The detachment of the Jedi are what keep them from falling to the Dark Side. However (and this is speaking from the movies themselves, I know the EU has different rules on this), I don't see why a Jedi can't use force choke on a victim in a detached manner. Force choke can be effectively used to disable someone long enough to take them into custody without ever having to pull out a lightsaber and fight. You simply leave them gasping for a bit until you have them in custody, then let go. Obi-Wan could have force pulled Zam's weapon away from her, disabled her with a choke, and mercifully left her hands intact. When fighting Grevious, it wouldn't have been hard to temporarily stop his heart (or even just interrupt it's beating pattern) long enough to get the upper hand (especially after he exposed the area). We even know of a case where choke was used with no ill effects to the user, when Luke chokes the Gamorreans in Jabba's palace (did those Gamorreans die, or were they just knocked unconscious?). So it can be used to great effect to disable an opponent long enough to capture them.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that Jedi can use something like choke against a Sith without the Sith being suitably beaten down first. Force users do have some form of counter or defense they can probably put up against attacks like this. But there are times when dealing with non-force users that these strategies would have led to lesser suffering (less loss of limbs or maybe even prevented loss of life, or a shorter fight) by their use, which is something a Jedi should be aspiring to achieve.

Now, obviously from a movie standpoint, lightsabers flashing about and fun sword play is far more interesting and exciting. I understand, therefore, the out of universe reason for hacking away. It's more entertaining. But I've never really bought into the in universe explanations of why these more subtle tactics aren't used by Jedi more often.

[Metahive]

But while I'm pointing out the obvious, here's a thought. Yoda didn't force push them out of the way because tossing around people with sword wounds, one of whom appears to be unconscious * and is missing a fucking hand, is the most goddamn idiotic thought that could have crossed Yoda's mind that day (worse even than "appearing in this film as a combatant").

What, just pulling or pushing them a few feet away? They had neither shattered bones nor any bleeding wounds on them. You are not only full of yourself but also full of shit. Coincidence?

And once again, Force TK requires concentration (reference: the famous "Size Matters Not" training scene from Empire begins with Luke failing a TK/meditation lesson because he is distracted by his sinking spaceship). So even if Yoda did push away the unconscious * Anakin and slashed up Obi-Wan, he would have to lower his guard with his lightsaber and concentrate on using the Force, like every other fucking scene where Yoda uses TK.

Nope, pushes and pulls, especially short ones require little concentration. Jedi and Sith do it casually in the Clone Wars series and Yoda is a paragon when it comes to these. Look how effortlessly he shoves Palpatine's guards and then Palpatine himself away in ROTS. Again, you're full of shit.

God. What kind of fucking imbecile are you? At least Prometheus Unbound had the good sense to merely ask why Yoda didn't do this rather than repeatedly asserting his badly written fanfiction in blatant ignorance of the films or common sense.

Ignorance of the films, eh? The irony is flying thick and hard here, wanker.

EDIT:

Also, since holding up the column required quite a lot of effort on Yoda's part, why didn't Dooku carve him up while he was distracted? Heck, why didn't DOOKU throw Anakin and Obi out of the cave with TK?

BAD WRITING!

[Jim Raynor]

And how does Yoda know that they don't have internal injuries, neck, or spinal wounds? The easy explanation is that Yoda, who hasn't fought anyone in God knows how long, and who just exerted his ancient body just to fight Dooku, made a snap second judgment. And yes, telekinesis requires concentration, so much that the Jedi routinely stop and point their hands to help focus. Even needing "a little" concentration is significant when you're making a snap judgment. Yoda saw something falling and he reacted in that second. So what? I don't know why people need to pick apart things like this.

[Formless]

What, just pulling or pushing them a few feet away? Nope, pushes and pulls, especially short ones require little concentration.

What part of "Anakin is UNCONSCIOUS and might have a fucking CONCUSSION from Yoda's POV" did you not understand, moron? This isn't quantum physics. No, you don't move someone like that even a few fucking feet without being slow and meticulous. God, why should I even bother arguing this or any other point with you if the most thought you are able to put into your posts is to parrot the same stupidity all over again... but with a shitfaced smiley to prove your uselessness?

Yes, Jedi and Sith can push/pull people with ease... when they are trying to hurt the shit out of each other. You fucking dishonest tool.

Also, Yoda never uses TK without visibly concentrating on it or waving his hands, even when he's "merely" pushing or pulling on something (yes, this includes those red clad guards if you didn't notice). I do believe I already said this.... oh right. I did. Fuck off, you slime ridden bowl movement. Just... fuck off. I can't even get through the rest of this post without feeling disgusted and unclean thanks to all the dishonesty in it (eg. appealing to a TV show that didn't fucking exist when the movie came out and is lower tier canon anyway, omitting relevant details about the context of the scene and the details of Yoda's other scenes, etc.).

And besides, quote spaghetti is vile and makes conversations/debates impossible to follow.

[Formless]

And how does Yoda know that they don't have internal injuries, neck, or spinal wounds? The easy explanation is that Yoda, who hasn't fought anyone in God knows how long, and who just exerted his ancient body just to fight Dooku, made a snap second judgment. And yes, telekinesis requires concentration, so much that the Jedi routinely stop and point their hands to help focus. Even needing "a little" concentration is significant when you're making a snap judgment. Yoda saw something falling and he reacted in that second. So what? I don't know why people need to pick apart things like this.

Its obvious, really. Star Wars has a lot of self-hating fans who love inventing problems with these movies as a way of making sure none of the other self-hating Star Wars Nerds questions their cred.

Edit: GHetto Edit: how exactly did I forget to put an ellipses in that last quote? I could have sworn that made the final cut...

[Eframepilot]

Generally, direct use of the Force on each other by Jedi and Sith seems to end in stalemate, as shown by Yoda and Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin's double Force blast (even though Anakin should have had a power advantage), and Yoda and the Emperor, who were only effective when they caught each other off guard. It almost always comes down to lightsabers, as Dooku pointed out.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan waited way too long to Force shove Grievous.

[Havok]

Thought: Why do we all assume that Yoda is good at being a telekinetic?

I mean, everything we have seen in the movies (X-wing on Dagobah, Pillar on Geonosis, Senate pods on Coruscant) shows that he struggles with it. We have all just ascribed it to age, but maybe he just isn't very good at it and it has always been a struggle.

It makes more sense than trying to figure out why he can't lift a pillar.