Weaknesses of the AT-AT

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think the idea was to drop out of hyperspace a long way off and cruise in at sublight, as this may be much less visible to sensors than a bunch of heavy ships dropping out of hyperspace. The EU mentions Cronau Radiation that is basically a massive lighthouse beacon when ships enter or exit hyperspace.

For instance, in Tyrant's Test we see three NR probes dropping out of hyperspacea long way from N'Zoth and the Cronau radiation lit the planet up like a full moon does to Earth.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I think the idea was to drop out of hyperspace a long way off and cruise in at sublight, as this may be much less visible to sensors than a bunch of heavy ships dropping out of hyperspace. The EU mentions Cronau Radiation that is basically a massive lighthouse beacon when ships enter or exit hyperspace.

For instance, in Tyrant's Test we see three NR probes dropping out of hyperspacea long way from N'Zoth and the Cronau radiation lit the planet up like a full moon does to Earth.

That's basically what I gathered from the scene in question. Really it does make sense, as dropping out at the edge of the system and then approaching slowly allows you to mask your approach as debris. No need for any EU explanations of radiation spikes. Your average system in Star Wars that isn't part of a major built up region (ie pretty much the entire Outer Rim) seems to have a fair amout of debris and asteroids floating about. In contrast, dropping out close to the target should give any sensor operator enough time to sound an alert. This is because an object suddenly appearing out of nowhere close to you is far more likely to be a ship than one thats you've been aware of for awhile and for all intents and purposes is likely to be a rock that got nudged out of orbit. Heck, I bet the sensor systems are set up to automatically signal an alert when something appears out of nowhere fairly close to you. Remember, even if you drop out of hyperspace on top of the planet directly in orbit (probably all but impossible in most conditions) you still need to figure out exactly where your target is on the planet in relation to where you are in orbit, manuever into the proper position, and actually fire the weapons. In contrast, the shield is most likely kept in a readied, but deactivated state, and only requires a flick of a switch to actually engage. TPM showed that shields engage quite quickly, from small personal shields all the way up to just below theater level shields, and that the shields tend to radiate outward from the generator, making taking out the generator from orbit extremely difficult unless you have complete surprise on your side.

[Stofsk]

'All the meteor activity is going to make it hard to spot approaching ships.'

It's right there in the film. None of this 'Vader just wanted an excuse to get rid of Ozzel' crap is necessary. 'He's as clumsy as he is arrogant.' The arrogant part might allude to stuff that was off-screen, but the clumsy part is a direct inference to be drawn from Ozzel's desire to bring the fleet out in orbit of Hoth, 'too close to the system'.

Not to mention that Ozzel nearly dismissed Hoth before Vader went to Piett, and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Ozzel was simply incompetent.

[Captain Seafort]

Not to mention that Ozzel nearly dismissed Hoth before Vader went to Piett, and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Ozzel was simply incompetent.

Nearly? He did dismiss it out of hand, and tried to persuade Vader that it wasn't worth a look.

[Stofsk]

Uh yeah, 'nearly' - that's kind of what I meant dude. He very nearly fucked things up for them, and if it weren't for Vader he would have.

[Elfdart]

Indiscriminate long-range bombardment of the planet in addition to being inaccurate might have killed the one person they hoped to apprehend (besides, do we ever see starships fire at such long ranges in the movies?). Getting out of hyperspace as close as possible to the planet to launch a surprise attack was actually a sound idea for what they intended to do. If anything Ozzel didn't come out close enough to the planet.

Who says it's indiscriminate? Thanks to the probe droid the Empire knows exactly where the base and shield generators are. If they stay out of sensor range they can simply open fire at these stationary targets and knock them out before the Rebels know what hit them. All Rebel transports and fighters would be sitting ducks for the star destroyers and fighters at that point, with no deflector shield to hide behind and no ion cannon to open gaps in the blockade.

[StarSword]

Indiscriminate long-range bombardment of the planet in addition to being inaccurate might have killed the one person they hoped to apprehend (besides, do we ever see starships fire at such long ranges in the movies?).

Furthest range I think we saw a ship fire (apart from the DS1 at Alderaan, which was about as far out as Luna is from Earth, judging by Alderaan's size) was during this exchange between Lando and Ackbar at Endor:

LANDO: Yes, I said "closer"! Get as close as you can, and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range!

ACKBAR: At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!

While Lando was talking, we see the Executor (or was it an ISD?) take a couple potshots at the Falcon and miss. It's hard to judge the range, but it looked like somewhere around 30 km.

Maybe the problem with shooting at starships at extreme ranges is accuracy.

[Batman]

Indiscriminate long-range bombardment of the planet in addition to being inaccurate might have killed the one person they hoped to apprehend (besides, do we ever see starships fire at such long ranges in the movies?). Getting out of hyperspace as close as possible to the planet to launch a surprise attack was actually a sound idea for what they intended to do. If anything Ozzel didn't come out close enough to the planet.

Who says it's indiscriminate? Thanks to the probe droid the Empire knows exactly where the base and shield generators are.

They do? Where exactly is that mentioned? Because all I remember from the movie is the probe droid giving away the Rebel base being on Hoth, nothing more.

If they stay out of sensor range they can simply open fire at these stationary targets and knock them out before the Rebels know what hit them.

Unless the Rebels actually have the means to detect tubolaser bolts, in which case they'll do what they did in the movie-raise the shield. Also presupposes they didn't raise the shield the moment they found the probe droid and knew they had to evacuate.

[Elfdart]

Who says it's indiscriminate? Thanks to the probe droid the Empire knows exactly where the base and shield generators are.

They do? Where exactly is that mentioned? Because all I remember from the movie is the probe droid giving away the Rebel base being on Hoth, nothing more.

The Empire was receiving transmissions from the droid right up the point where Han shot it. This is right after the scene where Leia tells Han he can't leave until the shield is ready to be raised.



Meaning the shield isn't ready yet and in any event, it would be stupid for the Rebels to keep the shield up constantly because doing so would be an obvious clue to anyone who is NOT Admiral Ozzel that something fishy is going on in the Hoth system. So unless Leia was bullshitting and it really was all a ruse to keep her future boyfriend on Hoth with her, it means the shield wasn't deployable yet.

If they stay out of sensor range they can simply open fire at these stationary targets and knock them out before the Rebels know what hit them.

Unless the Rebels actually have the means to detect tubolaser bolts, in which case they'll do what they did in the movie-raise the shield. Also presupposes they didn't raise the shield the moment they found the probe droid and knew they had to evacuate.

I don't know of any cases in the movies were turbolaser shots are tracked, but ships most certainly are, like when the SDs are detected when they exit hyperspace (which is when the Rebel general orders all power channeled into the shield). If bolts can be detected from afar then it doesn't matter where they jumped out of hyperspace. Since it does matter then I'd assume Vader was right and they were too close for the reasons I mentioned before.

[Batman]

Who says it's indiscriminate? Thanks to the probe droid the Empire knows exactly where the base and shield generators are.

They do? Where exactly is that mentioned? Because all I remember from the movie is the probe droid giving away the Rebel base being on Hoth, nothing more.

The Empire was receiving transmissions from the droid right up the point where Han shot it. This is right after the scene where Leia tells Han he can't leave until the shield is ready to be raised.

Which doesn't tell us beans about the information those transmissions contain I'm afraid.

Meaning the shield isn't ready yet and in any event, it would be stupid for the Rebels to keep the shield up constantly because doing so would be an obvious clue to anyone who is NOT Admiral Ozzel that something fishy is going on in the Hoth system.

Thanks to the probe droid the Imperials already know something fishy is going on in the Hoth system and who said anything about them keeping it up constantly? I said they might have fired it up the moment they realized they were found out.

So unless Leia was bullshitting and it really was all a ruse to keep her future boyfriend on Hoth with her, it means the shield wasn't deployable yet.

Um no it doesn't, it means the shield wasn't active. Not the same thing.

If they stay out of sensor range they can simply open fire at these stationary targets and knock them out before the Rebels know what hit them.

Unless the Rebels actually have the means to detect tubolaser bolts, in which case they'll do what they did in the movie-raise the shield. Also presupposes they didn't raise the shield the moment they found the probe droid and knew they had to evacuate.

I don't know of any cases in the movies were turbolaser shots are tracked, but ships most certainly are, like when the SDs are detected when they exit hyperspace (which is when the Rebel general orders all power channeled into the shield). If bolts can be detected from afar then it doesn't matter where they jumped out of hyperspace.

Err yes it does? Jump in 3 ls out-the Rebels have all of 3 seconds to react. Jump in 30 lighthours out, the Rebels have anywhere below 30 hours (depending on sensor range) to get the shield up.

[Darth Tedious]

Which doesn't tell us beans about the information those transmissions contain I'm afraid.

Wasn't one of the things the probe transmitted an image of the shield generator? (which is what Vader and Ozzel were looking at during their conversation)

It's fairly safe to assume that it transmitted coordinates along with the picture...

[Metahive]

Did it? When Death Squadron jumps to the Hoth system they only detect Echo Base because the shield is up.

VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moves out of light-speed. Com-Scan has
detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of
the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any
bombardment.

An energy field protecting an area. For me that implies they actually didn't have any concrete coordinates. It even implies they didn't know which planet of the Hoth system exactly the pictures were taken from.
So how were they supposed to bombard anything if they had only the faintest of clues? Without the shield up they wouldn't even know which planet to go to. Keep in mind, the Rebels were already busy evacuating the area, approaching from much further out and the necessesity to recon the area first might have very well resulted in all rebel transports getting away. Vader wanted Death Squadron to fall out of hyperspace far away from the whole system after all.

VADER: (angrily) The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel
came out of light-speed too close to the system.

[Darth Tedious]

You have a good point there...
I guess an alternate interpretation would be that Piett was working on the basis of "Vader had a hunch, let's investigate" and not assuming that what the probe droid had found was the Rebel Scum shield generator (which it totally turned out to be).

It just seemed common sense to me that a probe droid should transmit coordinates along with pretty pictures. But then, this thread is all about lack of Imperial common sense...

/shrug

[Stofsk]

I find it difficult to believe the probe droid didn't transmit coordinates for the shield generator or even just its own coordinates. Veers line isn't that convincing an argument. For all we know, he said 'sixth planet' simply because the planets in the Hoth system had no other designation.

[Metahive]

I find it difficult to believe the probe droid didn't transmit coordinates for the shield generator or even just its own coordinates.

Appeal to Incredulity. I also find it difficult to believe that a flotilla out to capture specific rebel personnel wouldn't bring a single interdictor with them, but here we are.

Veers line isn't that convincing an argument. For all we know, he said 'sixth planet' simply because the planets in the Hoth system had no other designation.

If they had concrete coordinates Veers wouldn't have to mention any specific planet at all. It would just be "Lord Vader, we found an energy field protecting the rebel base", end. I find Veers' line convincing enough in lieu of any evidence to the contrary.

[Stofsk]

I find it difficult to believe the probe droid didn't transmit coordinates for the shield generator or even just its own coordinates.

Appeal to Incredulity.

How so? I haven't said my position is right because it hasn't been proven wrong; I'm saying you haven't proven your position at all. You're arguing that the probe droid didn't transmit coordinates of the generator nor of its own position. You base this on Veers' line. That by itself is not enough to establish this however. In addition, we know that the probe made a transmission, in this transmission it sent images of the shield generator as well as a coded signal. But also Piett said that the probe had found human life signs as well, which isn't readily apparent from the image we see on screen - meaning there is more information contained within the probe's transmission than we can observe readily.

Veers line isn't that convincing an argument. For all we know, he said 'sixth planet' simply because the planets in the Hoth system had no other designation.

If they had concrete coordinates Veers wouldn't have to mention any specific planet at all. It would just be "Lord Vader, we found an energy field protecting the rebel base", end. I find Veers' line convincing enough in lieu of any evidence to the contrary.

He said it was protecting 'an area' which could have also meant scope beyond what the probe's coordinates implied. In other words, I would suggest your alternative line is wrong, because it would imply only the Rebel base was protected and nothing else. The field wouldn't solely protect the Rebel base because it also extended out in a wide radius. That's why they had to drop the walkers beyond the shield's range and have them approach from the ground.

Also the novelisation points out that Vader's plan was to do a clean bombardment which the shields being up prevented, and which the fleet dropping out of hyperspace further out would have enabled. Although I suppose you could argue that Vader's line in the film takes precedence. I'm not going to get into a canon argument over this.

[Stofsk]

Ghetto edit: sorry I mistook argument from incredulity for argument from ignorance. While it is true I believe the probe not transmitting its coordinates would be incredibly unbelievable, particularly since we know it gave its position at least in a vague way, that's not really what my argument is about.

[Darth Yoshi]

Then don't write "there really isn't anywhere for the Rebels to retreat to" when you really mean they won't be able to retreat, period.

What the hell kind of semantics bullshit is this? They're the same damn thing! If all your escape routes are blocked off, then you have nowhere to go and can't go anywhere. But fine. "If the Empire has space superiority, then there really isn't anywhere for the Rebels to retreat to (except elsewhere on the planet, which should be obvious since while there's an Imperial fleet in orbit that's the only place the Rebels can go unless they want to get shot down)."

Evacuating discovered bases is standard rebel procedure since the Empire can always secure local superiority over time, hence why the rebels have bases spread out all over the galaxy rather than following an "all eggs in one basket" approach. That the Empire managed to stop half the transports is a minor setback for the Alliance at most considering they're mostly a subversive entity rather than a military threat. That's why the Emperor sought a decisive victory at Endor by luring the Rebel top brass to him rather than further try to seek out and smash the needles in the haystack.

A minor setback? The Rebels have consistently suffered from equipment shortages. It's why the fleeing transports had only a single pair of x-wings each as escort. What are they going to do without weapons, kill the Imperials by bleeding on them?

In any case, what does it matter if evacuation is standard procedure for the Rebels? That doesn't change the fact that if an Imperial fleet is above a planet the Rebels on the planet have the choice of being blasted by the AT-ATs or being blasted by the fleet. Either way, they still get blasted, which was my whole point to begin with.

I disagree. If the Empire had approached this battle more diligently by, for example, including immobilizers within Death Squadron and had landed troops to attack and secure the airfield behind Echo Base as well as its front entrance, it could have dealt the Rebellion a much more serious blow. If the AT-ATs weren't so slow much of the medium transports wouldn't even have made it into space in the first place and could be captured intact, potentially with Alliance VIPs on board ripe for interrogation.

Prove it. Show that there was a quicker route to Echo Base than what the AT-ATs actually took.

Unless the Rebels actually have the means to detect tubolaser bolts, in which case they'll do what they did in the movie-raise the shield. Also presupposes they didn't raise the shield the moment they found the probe droid and knew they had to evacuate.

You'd have to prove that blaster fire can be tracked by anything other than visually. Because otherwise by the time you see the tracer the bolt itself will have already reached you. Which means little if the Rebels already had the shield up to begin with, of course.

[Metahive]

In addition, we know that the probe made a transmission, in this transmission it sent images of the shield generator as well as a coded signal. But also Piett said that the probe had found human life signs as well, which isn't readily apparent from the image we see on screen - meaning there is more information contained within the probe's transmission than we can observe readily.

Piett's line is:

PIETT: The visuals indicate life readings.

Having a big ass power power generator in the middle of nowhere indicates someone being present who uses it, not that there's necessarily more to the probe's transmissions than what can be observed on the footage. So would I take the line but I concede that there might be alternate meanings to this.

EDIT:

I found something.
PIETT: I think we've got something, sir. The report is only a fragment
from a probe droid in the Hoth system, but it's the best lead we've
had.

That might be the explanation, the probe's transmission was incomplete and therefore lacking exact coordinates.

He said it was protecting 'an area' which could have also meant scope beyond what the probe's coordinates implied. In other words, I would suggest your alternative line is wrong, because it would imply only the Rebel base was protected and nothing else. The field wouldn't solely protect the Rebel base because it also extended out in a wide radius. That's why they had to drop the walkers beyond the shield's range and have them approach from the ground.

That is besides the point, which is that according to the dialog the shield was the only thing that tipped the Empire of as to where Echo Base was located within the Hoth system. A shield protecting "an" area, not "the area at the coordinates given by the probe" or somesuch.

Also the novelisation points out that Vader's plan was to do a clean bombardment which the shields being up prevented, and which the fleet dropping out of hyperspace further out would have enabled. Although I suppose you could argue that Vader's line in the film takes precedence. I'm not going to get into a canon argument over this.

A bombardment that, as I have already pointed out, might have resulted in Luke either getting blown up or buried under rubble. Judging from the mission objectives I really think Ozzel had the better plan.

What the hell kind of semantics bullshit is this? They're the same damn thing! If all your escape routes are blocked off, then you have nowhere to go and can't go anywhere. But fine. "If the Empire has space superiority, then there really isn't anywhere for the Rebels to retreat to (except elsewhere on the planet, which should be obvious since while there's an Imperial fleet in orbit that's the only place the Rebels can go unless they want to get shot down)."

I would dispute that both sentences carry similar meaning but enough of that, you clarified what you meant.

A minor setback? The Rebels have consistently suffered from equipment shortages. It's why the fleeing transports had only a single pair of x-wings each as escort. What are they going to do without weapons, kill the Imperials by bleeding on them?

Subversion. Spread public dissent, assassinate officials, sabotage supply lines and other imperial assets. There are venues open to the Rebels besides direct armed confrontation which would be a hopeless struggle anyway considering the Empire can outproduce them by an overwhelming margin.

In any case, what does it matter if evacuation is standard procedure for the Rebels? That doesn't change the fact that if an Imperial fleet is above a planet the Rebels on the planet have the choice of being blasted by the AT-ATs or being blasted by the fleet. Either way, they still get blasted, which was my whole point to begin with.

See it like this, in space the rebels have more chances to escape the Empire than on the ground. Actually, on the ground the rebels have no chance of escape at all. So the most important task would be to not allow them to get spaceborn in the first place and that could be easier accomplished by not sending slow-as-molasses military hardware failures after them. Once the rebels are packing up and leaving, time's not on the Empire's side. That's why I mentioned that the rebels abandon bases as soon as they're discovered.

Prove it. Show that there was a quicker route to Echo Base than what the AT-ATs actually took.

I don't have to since I never said anything about there being a "quicker" route. What I said was that the Empire should have attempted to secure the airfield as well as the base's front entrance and attacked from multiple vectors.

[Darth Tedious]

The thought just occurred: Do we know for a fact that capturing Luke was the mission objective at Hoth?

It wasn't until later that Palpy had his little chat with Vader. Leaving it a possibility that Vader's 'obsession' with hunting down Luke was that of hunting him down and killing him...

Was there anything in the novel/other EU stuff that can shed some light on this?

[Batman]

Unless the Rebels actually have the means to detect tubolaser bolts, in which case they'll do what they did in the movie-raise the shield. Also presupposes they didn't raise the shield the moment they found the probe droid and knew they had to evacuate.

You'd have to prove that blaster fire can be tracked by anything other than visually. Because otherwise by the time you see the tracer the bolt itself will have already reached you.

I absolutely would. I'm merely throwing this out as a possibility as FTL sensors are by no means an unknown in the Wars universe. I don't think I've ever read a clear statement towards the detectability (or not) of TL bolts underway, and the fact that the NR could shoot a Vong worldship from lighthours away at least strongly hints that the Vong if nobody else lack this ability.

[Captain Seafort]

I absolutely would. I'm merely throwing this out as a possibility as FTL sensors are by no means an unknown in the Wars universe. I don't think I've ever read a clear statement towards the detectability (or not) of TL bolts underway, and the fact that the NR could shoot a Vong worldship from lighthours away at least strongly hints that the Vong if nobody else lack this ability.

The Vong did, however, backtrack the shot to Borleias, and the NR expected them to be able to do so, demonstrating that they can track the bolts' course with hindsight. Whether or not they can be tracked preemptively is another matter.

[Havok]

Has it occured to any of you retards that A: The probe droid did indeed send pictures of the shield generator and B: Once they jumped into the system and detected an "area" being protected by a shield, that that gave them the exact coordinates of the rebel base?

We also see in ROTJ the Rebel Fleet being tracked in hyperspace in the Imperial bunker by Leia on an actual screen.

Also if you attack from super fucking far away, you only get one shot. Super far distance = time to move the fuck out of the way. These are space ships that travel at thousands of miles an hour, not sea fairing warships moving at 30 knots.

And yes, Vader was looking for Luke. Despite the change in dialogue, the opening crawl indicates Vader is looking for him. Him knowing he is his son is what is now open for debate.

[Batman]

Has it occured to any of you retards that A: The probe droid did indeed send pictures of the shield generator

Which doesn't tell the Imperials where that generator is unless the probe droid transmitted a lot more in the way of information, which is one of the points under contention,

and B: Once they jumped into the system and detected an "area" being protected by a shield, that that gave them the exact coordinates of the Rebel base?

For a given definition of 'exact'. They know the rebel base is somewhere below the shield, nothing more, and technically, they can't even be sure of that-the Rebels might have set up the shield generator half a planet away as a deliberate distraction.

We also see in ROTJ the Rebel Fleet being tracked in hyperspace in the Imperial bunker by Leia on an actual screen.

Which means-you can detect ships in hyperspace if you have access to top of the line imperial sensors. Which the Rebels at Hoth may very well not have had.

Also if you attack from super fucking far away, you only get one shot. Super far distance = time to move the fuck out of the way. These are space ships that travel at thousands of miles an hour, not sea fairing warships moving at 30 knots.

And if you'd actually paid attention, you'd one of the points under contention is whether or not the Rebels could tell they'd be under attack from super far away. It doesn't matter if your peak speed is 30 knots, Mach 937 or Warp 2271 if you don't know you maybe should move because you don't know you're being shot at.

And yes, Vader was looking for Luke. Despite the change in dialogue, the opening crawl indicates Vader is looking for him. Him knowing he is his son is what is now open for debate.

'Looking for him' means Vader intended to find him. The controversy I think is did Vader intend to capture Luke from the word go, which a full-scale bobbardment would have made-unlikely, at the very least.

[Darth Yoshi]

I would dispute that both sentences carry similar meaning but enough of that, you clarified what you meant.

Fair enough, then.

Subversion. Spread public dissent, assassinate officials, sabotage supply lines and other imperial assets. There are venues open to the Rebels besides direct armed confrontation which would be a hopeless struggle anyway considering the Empire can outproduce them by an overwhelming margin.

All of which would be so successful at restoring the Republic. Without military assets it doesn't matter if the Rebels manage to assassinate the Emperor, because they still wouldn't be able to enforce democracy. But anyway, this a tangential to the main discussion, so I'll drop it.

See it like this, in space the rebels have more chances to escape the Empire than on the ground. Actually, on the ground the rebels have no chance of escape at all. So the most important task would be to not allow them to get spaceborn in the first place and that could be easier accomplished by not sending slow-as-molasses military hardware failures after them. Once the rebels are packing up and leaving, time's not on the Empire's side. That's why I mentioned that the rebels abandon bases as soon as they're discovered.

When the Rebels have already had a couple days to pack up and leave, getting to the base half an hour faster isn't going to do jack shit.

I don't have to since I never said anything about there being a "quicker" route. What I said was that the Empire should have attempted to secure the airfield as well as the base's front entrance and attacked from multiple vectors.

And if in the time the Empire needs to reach the airfield they would have already destroyed the shield generator anyway, then there's no point.

For a given definition of 'exact'. They know the rebel base is somewhere below the shield, nothing more, and technically, they can't even be sure of that-the Rebels might have set up the shield generator half a planet away as a deliberate distraction.

I dunno about that. That assumes that the Rebels can spare some shield generators as decoys, when all indications are that heavy equipment like that is rare enough in their inventory that they'd use every generator they have to actually protect stuff.