Starship construction times.

[Enigma]

Is there any references as to how long it took to build an ISD1/2?

What about other ships?

Also, how many ISDs could KDY build at the same time?

I understood that Sienar built the TIE series so how many could they turn out in a month? Year? What is the average building time for a TIE?

[Darth Tedious]

I can't find reference to build times, but KDY averaged ~2.6 ISDs per day (~25,000 at peak number, assumed to be in 4ABY, so divided by 26 years/368 days).

Given that each ISD carried 72 TIEs, Sienar must have been building an average of ~187 TIEs per day, without taking other TIEs (those not attached to an ISD) into account.

EDIT: That would be 68889 TIEs per year!

[Luke Skywalker]

There is a very large disparity between the construction times of ISD's and what they should be considering how quickly the Death Star 2 was completed.

[Ritterin Sophia]

According to The Force Unleashed the Empire was able to build the construction yard over Raxus Prime and start pumping out new ISDs in under six months. I can't remember which novel it was, Vympel knows for sure since he was the one who made me aware of it, there was an ISD being constructed for the New Republic that was said to be way behind schedule when they said it would be finished in a little under a year of construction.

[Connor MacLeod]

They also built Executors within six months, and a mon Cal cruiser can be created in that time too. The Force Unleashed ISds were made from space junk or garbage IIRC and massed only a million tons, so they may not be top of the line vessels.

In any case, all of that ssumes a maximum effort, no holding back, nothing getting in the way level of construction. Ideal conditions. The reality of the situation is that the Empire has a Military-industrial complex that has more in common with America than anywhere else. That means bureacracy, corruption, politics, and the like all play a not-insignificant role in things. The (I think) star Wars sourcebook flat out says that various factors dictate ISDs taking years to build because of that, although its been ages since I dug through any of that stuff.

So barring some external factors, or an emergency, expect it to take some time to build ISDs, or expect it to be highly randomized.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, construction times are always 'your mileage may vary.' To take an example, we have the more or less standardized design of the WWII Liberty ship, which evolved only incrementally over time. Liberty ships could take anywhere from seven or eight months to build (for the first models) to six weeks (in yards with plenty of experience and after some of the design bugs were worked out) to four and a half days (as a publicity stunt that couldn't be repeated easily, with a ship that needed a lot of extra work done even after it left the shipyard).

That's about a factor of fifty in spread among construction times for what is, when you get right down to it, the same ship- but built under different conditions and with different levels of experience at the production rate. I suspect you'd get similar divergences for the ISD.

To take the example of KDY, they might average eighteen star destroyers a week, yes. But how many more would they produce working flat out, and how few less when construction had to be interrupted to make modifications on the fly? Was that production of 2.6/day or 18/week the result of eighteen building slips producing one ship per week, or eighteen hundred building slips producing one ship per two years? How often was production stopped so that changes could be made to the tooling and equipment handling procedures of the shipyard? How many variant ships, just as challenging to build as an ISD and less readily adapted for mass production, were built?

So maybe if Kuat really wanted to impress Palpatine, they might be able to slap one together in a week (while quietly brushing over the need to keep a crew of technicians on board fitting and testing systems integration for three months after the ship is "launched"). And yet the average time needed to assemble a ship might well be several months or even a year, with hundreds under construction, in parallel and at varying stages of completion, at any one time.

And at least with ISDs we know that the individual ships lasted for decades and there were relatively few lost in action after the Clone Wars. For those, we can make an easy estimate at how many needed to be built per year to maintain the fleet. With TIE fighters, it's a whole different matter. Seventy thousand TIEs a year is nothing, when you consider how many fighters would be needed for planetary and space-based garrisons, along with routine replacement of craft lost in action, lost to accidents, or simply worn out at the end of their service lives.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's actually a sort of shipyard/construction time chapter in WOTC's first edition of Starships of the Galaxy and it covered alot of that.. much of it was simplified due to RPG terms but basically construction times were dependent upon how many "slips" (shipyard space/resources and personnel basically) was devoted to a particular vessel, the size/type of vessel, and the general quality of the work of the yard (Better yard, the faster it worked.) You could basically have a yard construct a large number of ships over a long period of time, or a few ships over a short period of time.

I generally throw an extra qualifier in there with the assumption that not all wedge shaped ISDs are built ot the same level of capbility or armed/shielded the same way. We already have all those hypothetical "hangarless" ISDs, the Interdictor ISDs, etc. I've always figured the WEG ISD "60 TL/60 Ion cannon' design and the supposed 'more canonicla' ICS one with the small number of HTL turrets were two different classes of vessel entirely, and some may deliberatley incorporater a less powerful reactor, less powerful guns, engines or shields for various reasons (to save money, to allow them to build and field larger numbers, lack of proper resources, etc.)

[Ahriman238]

Wildly variable. ISDs were constructed in days, even hours in Dark Empire while the Bilbringi yard took almost a full year to make one in The Emperor's Last Command.

[Darth Tanner]

ISDs were constructed in days, even hours in Dark Empire

I've not read all of the Dark Empire comics but I don't remember anything like that, more details would be appreciated as that sounds rather stupid even for Dark Empire.

I can't find reference to build times, but KDY averaged ~2.6 ISDs per day (~25,000 at peak number, assumed to be in 4ABY, so divided by 26 years/368 days).

Only if Kuat built them all. We know that Imperial ship production was quite diverse and they set up their own yards for every sector, even a shit hole like Yevetha had a huge naval yard capable of building SSDs.

There is a very large disparity between the construction times of ISD's and what they should be considering how quickly the Death Star 2 was completed.

Not really, a single one off project that has unlimited resources available to it due to the genocidal mad dictator wanting it done fast can easily be faster to achieve than 25,000 individual projects that are going through civilian contractors and bidding processes alongside god knows how many other ships the military, planetary defence forces and civilian sectors demand. Also with SW droid construction and mass fabrication it likely takes little effort to throw the hull together in comparison to the high tech end of things like the hyper drive and reactor so the 25,000 hyperdrives/reactors/gizmos might take a lot more effort than a single larger hyperdrive for the death star.

[Darth Tedious]

We already have all those hypothetical "hangarless" ISDs, the Interdictor ISDs, etc.

I'm pretty sure the Interdictor is considered a seperate class of ship, and not an ISD.

And if I'm not mistaken, the WEG Sourcebooks got decanonised when the D20 RPG was released (though many of the statistics given still remain correct, such as the crew compliments).

I can't find reference to build times, but KDY averaged ~2.6 ISDs per day (~25,000 at peak number, assumed to be in 4ABY, so divided by 26 years/368 days).

Only if Kuat built them all. We know that Imperial ship production was quite diverse and they set up their own yards for every sector, even a shit hole like Yevetha had a huge naval yard capable of building SSDs.

Kuat Drive Yards is the name of the corporation. It does not specifically refer to the Kuat production facility, but encompasses all of the shipyards across the galaxy owned by KDY.

And the Yevetha are a species, not a planet. Their homeworld of N'Zoth did have an Black-15 (a type-II orbital repair yard) above it. However, it was not a construction facility. Black-15 was specifically stated as incapable of building Star Dreadnoughts, though they could dock for repairs.

[Darth Tanner]

However, it was not a construction facility.

I don't have the books anymore but wookiepedia specifically mentions it as a shipyard and goes on to state that the Yethya had continued to build ships after they seized the facilities from the Empire having finished off ships that had been in construction at the time of Endor not to mention their thrust ships. It does say it cannot build an SSD as it wouldn’t fit in the slip but it expressly says it can build SDs and Vics.

but encompasses all of the shipyards across the galaxy owned by KDY.

But we know that Fondor was a massive ship builder as well, and was not owned by Kuat unless Kuat has its own semi-empire of other industrial worlds. Also facilities like the one in Force Unleashed and other system yards like the Black Sword yards above are directly military run.

[Darth Tedious]

I don't have the books anymore but wookiepedia specifically mentions it as a shipyard and goes on to state that the Yethya had continued to build ships after they seized the facilities from the Empire having finished off ships that had been in construction at the time of Endor not to mention their thrust ships.

My mistake- I figured being a 'Type-II Orbital Repair Yard', it would be just that.
Incidently, the Type-II Orbital Repair Yard is a product of the KDY Corporation.

It does say it cannot build an SSD as it wouldn’t fit in the slip but it expressly says it can build SDs and Vics.

Actually, it mentions they docked and modified the Intimidator there. There must have been some other reason for them not being able to make SSDs. *shrugs*

But we know that Fondor was a massive ship builder as well, and was not owned by Kuat unless Kuat has its own semi-empire of other industrial worlds.

Fondor was independant of KDY, so were Sullust, Correllia and Mon Calamari. Though, the Executor was was designed by KDY and built and Fondor and listed as a product of KDY (implying KDY were supplying Fondor shipyards with components).

KDY did have a mini-empire, including Beldarone, Gyndine, Karavis, Xa Fel, Balmorra and Rothana (Rothana Heavy Industries being a subsidiary of KDY).

Also facilities like the one in Force Unleashed and other system yards like the Black Sword yards above are directly military run.

Indeed. As mentioned above, the facilities themselves were a product of KDY, sold to the military.

I'd certainly concede that KDY did not construct every single ISD in the galaxy. It does seem though that every ISD is certainly a product of KDY- those built by the military directly were done in KDY manufactured slips, I'd be willing to bet KDY were supplying the majority of the parts.

[Connor MacLeod]

Only if Kuat built them all. We know that Imperial ship production was quite diverse and they set up their own yards for every sector, even a shit hole like Yevetha had a huge naval yard capable of building SSDs.

No they didn't. The Intimdiator/Pride of YEvetha was reassigned elsewhere to be finished at one of the Yards in the koornacht cluster.. and it was pretty much mostly finished as far as the exterior was concerned. probably mostly internal work that needed to be done.

Not really, a single one off project that has unlimited resources available to it due to the genocidal mad dictator wanting it done fast can easily be faster to achieve than 25,000 individual projects that are going through civilian contractors and bidding processes alongside god knows how many other ships the military, planetary defence forces and civilian sectors demand. Also with SW droid construction and mass fabrication it likely takes little effort to throw the hull together in comparison to the high tech end of things like the hyper drive and reactor so the 25,000 hyperdrives/reactors/gizmos might take a lot more effort than a single larger hyperdrive for the death star.

There's also an issue of scale involved. We know from the ITW:OT books that the DS2 used self-replicating automated machines to build much of the DS itself (physical structure, at the very least) but that the speed at which it as built depended to some degree on surface rea (more surface area meant more droids to build droids, or something like that.) which tends ot suggest it won't scale up linearly. They might be able to brute force a workaround by simply employing more droids, but it wouldn't be as efficient.

For that matter I'm pretty sure the Executor building was pretty much abnormal too, since they wanted to rush it into production to personally finish off the Rebels, and it was creating alot of firction amongst other officers/admirals in and around Fondor to get it built.

In general I recall the idea being they had at least 2 major/primary yards per sector for shipbuilding and repair/maintenance work (which might be stationary or the ymight be mobile, I don't recall) plus a number of smaller secondary yards to supplement the major ones, or something like that. That may or may not include the commercial yards.

[Ahriman238]

I've not read all of the Dark Empire comics but I don't remember anything like that, more details would be appreciated as that sounds rather stupid even for Dark Empire.

It was one of World Devastors at Mon Calamari. Mostly they just chewed up the earth and spammed droid fighters, but there's a point where a Mon Cal cruiser gets swallowed by one of the bigger ones and a Star Destroyer comes out the other end. Hard to be sure about time-frame though, and it's not one of the half-dozen or so Dark Empire comics I personally own, so I can't check right away.

There's also an issue of scale involved. We know from the ITW:OT books that the DS2 used self-replicating automated machines to build much of the DS itself (physical structure, at the very least) but that the speed at which it as built depended to some degree on surface rea (more surface area meant more droids to build droids, or something like that.) which tends ot suggest it won't scale up linearly. They might be able to brute force a workaround by simply employing more droids, but it wouldn't be as efficient.

I believe the DS1 was built over a prison-planet using slave labor, with much automated assistance. In particular, I know they used thousands of specially fitted astromech droids (like R2) to check for radiation leaks, air leaks, or odd magnetic fields. Said Prison world was destroyed in the first test-firing. Though that is older fluff, and doesn't preclude the use of the von neuman droids you mentioned for the DS2. Though, the DS2 was built in a fraction of the time it took for the original.

For that matter I'm pretty sure the Executor building was pretty much abnormal too, since they wanted to rush it into production to personally finish off the Rebels, and it was creating alot of firction amongst other officers/admirals in and around Fondor to get it built.

IIRC there were two contracts for Super Star Destroyers initially, both named Executor. One for Kuat, and one for Fondor. One of these was renamed Lusankya after the fact.

[Vympel]

They also built Executors within six months, and a mon Cal cruiser can be created in that time too. The Force Unleashed ISds were made from space junk or garbage IIRC and massed only a million tons, so they may not be top of the line vessels.

Raxus Prime was a garbage planet, but the garbage included fuckloads of starships (TF Battleships, for example). The stuff was smelted into a massive sphere and then shot into space. As for "massed only a million tons", that's only if someone takes the quote from the novel as some sort serious Jane's Fighting Ships estimate of their mass as opposed to the sort of "this thing weighs a ton" off-the-cuff remark that it (IMHO obviously) is given the context. Besides, we saw the ship ourselves, its a normal looking film-standard ISD.

There's also the quote from Order 66 (Republic era) that KDY and Rothana could churn out large warships (i.e. Acclamators and above, from the context) inside of 5 months. Dovetails quite nicely with the quote from Agents of Chaos.

[PainRack]

Is there any references as to how long it took to build an ISD1/2?

What about other ships?

Also, how many ISDs could KDY build at the same time?

I understood that Sienar built the TIE series so how many could they turn out in a month? Year? What is the average building time for a TIE?

To be honest, I think the easiest guess would be the much older fluff of 1 year or so, which has been repeated in multiple sources, up to the NJO. It probably represents an aggregrate estimate.

Also, with regards to the Yevetha, the novel explictly states that what they did was that they repaired damaged warships, and did the finishing workup on the Executors, freeing up a slip at Kuat.

The Yevethans however did manage to both rebuild and capture sufficient capacity that they restarted/expanded the shipbuilding industries to reproduce larger numbers of Yevethan thrustships.

Its non novel fluff which expanded the Yevethans ability to build thrustships to other starships.

[Simon_Jester]

Wildly variable. ISDs were constructed in days, even hours in Dark Empire while the Bilbringi yard took almost a full year to make one in The Emperor's Last Command.

Go figure. Remember what I said- the first Liberty ship took eight months to build, but as a propaganda stunt one yard later managed to get one into the water, having built the entire hull from the keel up, in five days.

Assembling a ship goes a lot faster if you have the parts ready to hand and if you don't mind having to do a lot of the fitting and systems integration work after the ship gets moving.

We already have all those hypothetical "hangarless" ISDs, the Interdictor ISDs, etc.

I'm pretty sure the Interdictor is considered a seperate class of ship, and not an ISD.

Yeah, but it's roughly the same size and shape, and probably not a lot easier to build.

I've not read all of the Dark Empire comics but I don't remember anything like that, more details would be appreciated as that sounds rather stupid even for Dark Empire.

It was one of World Devastors at Mon Calamari. Mostly they just chewed up the earth and spammed droid fighters, but there's a point where a Mon Cal cruiser gets swallowed by one of the bigger ones and a Star Destroyer comes out the other end. Hard to be sure about time-frame though, and it's not one of the half-dozen or so Dark Empire comics I personally own, so I can't check right away.

The Devastators use some very wonky technology, too, though. I doubt they represent the normal state of Imperial industrial capacity.

There's also the quote from Order 66 (Republic era) that KDY and Rothana could churn out large warships (i.e. Acclamators and above, from the context) inside of 5 months. Dovetails quite nicely with the quote from Agents of Chaos.

One note: era may make a difference too. Ships built during war emergencies may have been completed more quickly, because shipyards were working round the clock and because people were more concerned about getting heavy metal out to the battlefield than they were about some of the details of fitting out the ships.

When the war cools down, so does the effort to rush-build ships.

[Vympel]

One note: era may make a difference too. Ships built during war emergencies may have been completed more quickly, because shipyards were working round the clock and because people were more concerned about getting heavy metal out to the battlefield than they were about some of the details of fitting out the ships.

When the war cools down, so does the effort to rush-build ships.

True, but in this case it means the opposite conclusion - the Rebellion Era Sourcebook (WotC) makes it clear that the Empire's military buildup made starship construction far faster and more efficient compared to the Republic - including mighty KDY. It states explicitly that shipyards which struggled to make one VSD could now make two ISDs in the same timeframe:-

The Empire established a mighty military and developed a powerful industrial complex to provide for it ...

Because interchangeable components were used in manufacturing, shipyards never remained idle ...

Projects that had once been thought too large to be practical were now possible- shipyards that had once struggled to produce one Victory-class Star Destroyer on a tight schedule now produced two of the massive Imperial-class Star Destroyer in the same time. Kuat Drive Yards most effectively implemented this strategy ...

This process made the construction of the Death Star possible ... the fact that any manufacturing facility across the Outer Rim could contribute components both helped speed and conceal the construction of the superweapon - who would notice if the Wroona Stardocks was producing five or six Star Destroyer main bridge components this month?

From this, I conclude that the Empire was probably the peak of starship construction speed in the eras we are aware of. Any slower build times after the Empire's breakup are easily explaianble as the effect of the breakdown of the system the Empire created.

[ComradeClaus]

how about the eclipse I & II compared to the Executors? they were roughly the same legnth/size (Executor ~19km Executor vs ~17 km but bulkier Eclipse), but the Eclipse had extras like the superlaser, which likely complicated things. And any ideas about the speed of Yuzhang Vong Organo-techno-wank ship production? I never felt those organics were efficient.

[Ahriman238]

how about the eclipse I & II compared to the Executors? they were roughly the same legnth/size (Executor ~19km Executor vs ~17 km but bulkier Eclipse), but the Eclipse had extras like the superlaser, which likely complicated things. And any ideas about the speed of Yuzhang Vong Organo-techno-wank ship production? I never felt those organics were efficient.

Um, what? Last I recall, the Eclipse was almost twice the length of the Executor, and probably massed far more. It had a superlaser, twice the fighters and support ships, gravity well projectors with 360 degree coverage and redundencies, and a vastly greater number of weapons including over 500 anti-fighter batteries completly absent in the Executor design.

As for the Vong, a bit more than a week to grow a coralskipper, something more than four months for a worldship at Sernpidal (but that may have been a one-off deal.)

[Stark]

Someone needs to stop reading RPG sourcebooks from the 80s.

[Darth Tedious]

I was under the impression production time on the Eclipse really wasn't what it could (or should) have been. Didn't the whole project get mothballed after Endor, almost disassembled for parts/scrap and only completed after Palpy's resurrection?

[Panzersharkcat]

Yeah, the Eclipse was a bit shorter than the Executor, but had twice the mass and the ginormous superlaser. And yes, it was mothballed for a while.

By 4 ABY, the Eclipse had its superlaser main weapon installed and in functional condition. The crime lord Tyber Zann wanted to access records on the ship, so he attacked Kuat and took control of the ship, and used to it to damage an Imperial and rebel fleet. Afterwards, Zann had no further use for the vessel, and left it adrift.