Vaders redemption

[Darth Yan]

I have decided to start a new thread to replace the one that was necroed a few weeks ago, since the topic seemed to interesting to die.

Gil and a few others seemed to imply that vader's redemption was immoral and implausible. I would like to state my case as to why this isn't necissarily true.

I.) Nature of the Dark Side

From what we see in all of the materials (film and eu), the Dark Side acts very much like a drug. It tempts you, and once you are submerged it is damn near impossible to break free. Free will is involved to an extent but the dark side does actively play a part. Another element that seems present in the dark side is that it can erode morals or surpress positive traits. There are several examples of this in the EU, the most prominent being Darth Revan, Darth Malak Darth Bane, Darth Ruin, Ulic Qel-Droma, and "sigh" Darth Caedus.

1.) Darth Revan: From what we hear from Bastilla (as well as their former teachers), Revan was a genuinely good man before he fell. Indeed, it is implied that what drove him to finally take decisive action was the revelation of the Massacre of Cathar (wherein most of the Cathar species was wiped out by the Mandalorians and brought near the brink of extinction purely to settle a thirty year old grudge). However, as Revan draws on the power of Malachor and uses increasingly brutal tactics, the moral compass that drove him to take action slowly erodes, until he not only sacrifices many of his own soldiers (among them his former mentor Arren Kae) but also willingly sides on as the Sith Emporer's acolyte despite knowing him to be the monster who first unleashed the mandalorians on the Republic

2.) Darth Malak: Like Revan, Malak was shown to be a genuinely good man (in the comics he helps Zayne Carrick try to clear his name despite knowing that associating with a fugitive could potentially be a deathblow to his cause.) He also felt righteous anger for the destruction of cathar; Unfortunately, like Revan his morals are submerged, only in this case it is due to his hatred for the mandalorians (particularly the mad scientist Demagol).

3.) Darth Bane: When we first meet Dessel he had one or two morals. he genuinely cared for his soldiers and mutinied against a superior officer (despite it being tantamount to signing his death warrant) rather than lead his troops into a blood bath. He also feels some degree of guilt after killing another student deliberately, and ultimately hesitates to kill the man who humiliated him. When he kills a defenseless Sirak, he is described as "feeling a chain lifted from his body."

4.) Ulic Qel-Droma: For all of Anderson's flaws as a writer he was able to create a compelling character in Ulic Qel-Droma. Ulic is much like Anakin, in that he's a hot headed and arrogant but ultimately decent guy who genuinely wants to help people and make life better. Unfortunately, like anakin he tends to make poor choices (infiltrating the krath and having a sexual relationship with one of the leaders). The defining moment is when Ulic murders Satal Keto, the man he blames for the death of his master despite Satal being disarmed and beaten, and despite having his allies nearby (who could potentially help him take Satal into custody). After this, Ulic's actions can best be described as those of a monster. He takes over Satal's role as leader of the Krath, and may even have been more evil (due to being efficient and expansionist rather than an egotistical fop who was content to keep his rule confined to koros). He proceeds to slaughter defenseless workmen by jettisoning them into space, sets up his traitorous lover to die, and to top it off murders his own brother.

5.) Darth Ruin: Though he never shows up in person, there are hints of his personality before and after his fall. Before he seemed to have been like Vergere (pre bullshit retcon that it), an unorthodox but ultimately a loyal jedi. After his fall Abel G Pena describes him as being a monster who's philosophy was even more fucked up then Kreia's.

6.) Darth Caedus: In Betrayal his original motivations (while stupid) are well meaning. he also feels some guilt at his actions. after the death of mara, he's full blown evil (blowing up surrendered planets, torching his old friend's home, torturing his cousin and sleeping with his dead brother's girlfriend etc).

Then we have the prodigial son Anakin Skywalker. While his performance in the film left much to be desired, Anakin did display good qualities. In the start of revenge of the sith he displays more maturity and although he does kill dooku he doesn't enjoy it and in fact feels remorse for it. In the Eu there are acts of murder carried out but the people who died are usually monsters or assholes (case in point, the scientists who committed experiments on the neelvannians). Even the tusken massacre was a source of guilt, and his decision to help palpatine was partially loyalty based (misplaced though it may be). Then the dark side starts warping his brain; even then there are still elements of a conscience that shine through (most prominently in Return of the Jedi when he sadly tells luke "it's too late for me, or his decision to keep c3PO from being scrapped).

In closing, the Dark side does have an effect on the human mind even if the person made the concious choice to accept it (hence why those who may have embraced it for noble reasons turned into monsters).

II.) Embracing the Darkness

Embracing the Dark Side seems to come down to one choice; the person must not only draw upon dark powers, but they must make the choice to knowingly sacrifice their principles. Ulic Qel Droma made this choice when he murdered Satal Keto despite the latter being defenseless and injured. Revan made the choice when he not only became as brutal as the mandalorians he sought to fight, but ultimately signed on with the same monsters who unleashed the mandalorians in the first place. Finally, Anakin himself made this choice when he chose his wife's survival over the well being of millions (as well as loyalty to the order which had trained him for 13 years). Making this choice. This choice can come gradually (Revan and to a lesser extent Ulic) or it can be a combination of quick actions and gradual build up (Anakin's final choices)

III.) Redemption: Those who are redeemed are usually those who had a noble past, or who were not monsters from the beginning. Ulic was redeemed for instance when, after murdering his brother he finally realized that he had become an even bigger monster than Satal and Aleema ever were. While evil, his actions were motivated by self delusions that where dispelled when he did crimes impossible to justify.

Revan was redeemed largely because of the surpression of his dark half. Some have theorized that the surpression of his evil nature (as well as the brain damage he recieved) allowed his original personality to resurface.

Finally, in ROTJ, it is somewhat implied that a part of Darth Vader regretted falling to the dark side (the sorrow with which he rejects luke and the long pause made after luke makes the first offer seem to imply that he genuinely considered it.) Anakin himself achieved redemption when his love of his son allowed him to break free from the self loathing and hatred that had been part of him for so long. Unlike people like Bane, Anakin's good nature was never fully extinguished. As such, it could concievably be awakened with the right push.

[Metahive]

I think it's less that the Dark Side has some inherent psychotropic properties of its own but that it's simply the fact that it presents an easy way to accumulate lots of power quickly. The allure of power is often enough to corrupt even the best-intentioned character quickly, especially when he brings firm determination and therefore a certain mental inflexibility to the table. Lots of power tend to exaggerate those traits and drive people to extremism if they aren't careful. TCW shows that Anakin had a propensity to look for the quick and easy solution of a problem first and most often that just translates to bringing a bigger hammer to the table than the opposition, tendencies the Dark Side is all too happy to service and subsequently aggravate. Anakin was often impatient, Vader was impatient to the point of murderous rage for example.
The Light Side in contrast demands restraint, humility and introspection from its adherents, things that are just not suited to serve an ambitious would-be conqueror.

ETA:
I think Vader is stronger as a character when his redemption involves him going against his own firm convictions rather than shaking off some involuntary brainwashing IMHO.

[Darth Yan]

I'm saying there's a bit of both. Yes you make the choice, but it does actively affect your mind at the same time. Look at ulic; it wasn't until he murdered his own brother that he realized what he had become.

another example is sarah kerrigan from starcraft. while she did make the choices to be an evil backstabbing psychopath that was largely because the overmind surpressed her sense of compassion and empathy allowing her anger and rage (demonstrated when she killed her sadistic former instructor by deep frying his brain to the point where his eyes melted out of his head) to become the dominant part of her personality. Vader had influence and his own choices, but in the end given the right stimulus he was able to conciously choose to reject both the tempting influence and his own desire for power

[Havok]

Vader's redemption is acceptable.

All that other bullshit you posted? Not acceptable.

[Darth Yan]

explain how they are unacceptable. If I'm making an arguement I should back up my points; i noticed similarities between the films and eu so I made the comparisons.

[Havok]

It's not the fact that there are similarities.

Yoda was 1000 years old. Don't you think that if redemption from the Dark Side were as common as the EU makes it, he may not have been quite so adamant about Anakin not being able to be saved? You think that the Jedi would have just forgotten about all the other redeemed Jedi? No. Why was no one trying to talk Dooku back from the Dark Side?

Vader's redemption is acceptable because it is supposed to be a unique event, with no parallel.

And quite honestly, who exactly was Vader redeemed to? One person and a couple of Force ghosts, who also happen to be the only people that ever really had compassion for Anakin in the first place. That he was redeemed at all is debatable.

I agree with some of your points on the Dark Side and how people fall, but redemption should not be an option. In fact, one of the few bright spots in the EU is that Jacen wasn't redeemed and just died. Of course a polished terd, is still just a terd.

[Batman]

I don't know about redemption not being an option, but it should definitely have to be something they properly earned. KOTOR Light Side path Revan? Yeah, I think so (I gave up on the EU partway through NJO so I never read the related materials). Vader?-Errr...no.
Of course, as Havok mentions, nobody among the living but Luke ever thought Vader had redeemed himself to begin with. In fact, in 'Truce at Bakura' it is pretty evident that Leia doesn't when Anakin's Force Ghost visits her.

[Darth Tedious]

As for none of the Jedi talking about trying to redeem Dooku- don't forget that he didn't turn to the Sith. He had left the Jedi Order of his own free will around twelve years beforehand, and would have been very unlikely to return. The very fact that the Jedi were not aware of Sidioius was an affirmation of his reasons for leaving.

[Darth Yan]

there are differences

Revan suffered brain damage which when combined with therapy allowed his good side to reemerge. Asajj Ventress and Hagaland Ventor were bitter and alone rather than malignant, while Bastilla was still early enough along that she could be extracted in time (revan kicking her ass with the light also undermined her prime motivation, since if the light was weaker how could he beat her in the place where the dark was strongest?) Ulic and Darovit were deluded fuckwits who failed to realize what they had become until they were faced with a crime they couldn't justify. The truly evil ones were monsters till the moment they died (Karness Muur, Darth Bane etc). Even if it was common there were anough differences for yoda to think comparisons with the other examples were bad ones.

[Simon_Jester]

It's not the fact that there are similarities.

Yoda was 1000 years old. Don't you think that if redemption from the Dark Side were as common as the EU makes it, he may not have been quite so adamant about Anakin not being able to be saved? You think that the Jedi would have just forgotten about all the other redeemed Jedi? No. Why was no one trying to talk Dooku back from the Dark Side?

Vader's redemption is acceptable because it is supposed to be a unique event, with no parallel.

Alternatively, Yoda is an overzealous little muppet whose ideas about the history of the Force and whatnot don't quite line up with the truth.

For that matter, most of the Dark Side users Yan mentions never actually got redeemed. As I see it, Yan's point isn't so much about redemption from the Dark Side, it's about the Dark Side having a genuine "this is your brain on evil" effect that fucks people up.

[Darth Yan]

exactly. the only examples who were redeemed were ulic and revan; revan only got redeemed due to a combination of brain damage and artificial surpression of his memory allowing a new personality, while ulic was more delusional then evil. Kevin J Anderson actually said in an interview that he viewed Ulic more as an arrogant and deluded man who had no clue just what he was playing with rather than someone who was actively evil (unlike Exar Kun). Another point is that the people who did get redeemed were either special circumstances, still at the point of being misguided rather than pure evil, or still in early enough to be extracted.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I wouldn't say redemption is all that common, either. I mean, when you think about it, before Vader, it happens, what, like five times in as many thousand years, more or less?

[Broken]

There is also the tidbit rumbling around in my brain that early on in the EU that Vader's redemption was a totally unique event as in before Vader not a single individual under the sway of the Dark Side of the Force had ever renounced it. Admittedly, iirc that was way back when the Zahn trilogy was brand-new and WEG's d6 material was little more then the main rule book and Imperial Sourcebook. However, that was the reason Yoda and Obi-wan rejected out of hand Luke's impulse to bring Vader out of the grip of the Dark Side as in the thousands of years of struggle between the Jedi and Sith; every attempt had failed. Once you turned to the Dark Side you were lost forever. This made Anakin's sacrifice and redemption more interesting as a focal, revolutionary event rather then a semi-rare but hardly unheard of occurrence.

[Simon_Jester]

There is also the tidbit rumbling around in my brain that early on in the EU that Vader's redemption was a totally unique event as in before Vader not a single individual under the sway of the Dark Side of the Force had ever renounced it. Admittedly, iirc that was way back when the Zahn trilogy was brand-new and WEG's d6 material was little more then the main rule book and Imperial Sourcebook. However, that was the reason Yoda and Obi-wan rejected out of hand Luke's impulse to bring Vader out of the grip of the Dark Side as in the thousands of years of struggle between the Jedi and Sith; every attempt had failed. Once you turned to the Dark Side you were lost forever. This made Anakin's sacrifice and redemption more interesting as a focal, revolutionary event rather then a semi-rare but hardly unheard of occurrence.

Well, something that only ever happened a handful of times in the past several millenia is tricky.

For one, the Jedi might honestly have forgotten, or repressed the institutional memory, that these previous cases of fall and redemption ever happened. I get the feeling that a lot of what was learned about the Sith during the various wars of antiquity- "Great Hyperspace War, Jedi Civil War, Light and Darkness War," and so on- would not have survived thousands of years of Jedi librarians who are firmly convinced that it's safer not to investigate the Dark Side at all.

The old Jedi are not without their institutional flaws, after all. And there are far too many cases of Jedi beginning their fall with a burning desire to investigate the mysteries of the Sith.

[Lord Helmet]

I am not familiar with the EU but are there any other examples of a sith having to watch while another sith tortured their son to death?.

Lets face it Sith already are perfectly content with killing their masters to get a promotion in fact it is virtually in the job description, so while him throwing palpatine down the shaft was a positive thing its hardly a perfect example of him becoming a angelic being of goodness under the circumstances.

[Darth Tedious]

I was about to bring up a similar thing.

How 'redeemed' was Vader, really? Not only is killing your master SOP for Sith Lords (as LH just mentioned), but his entire reason for joining the Sith was to become powerful enough to save his loved ones. If Vader had survived and gone on to do good, we'd know he was indeed redeemed, but he didn't exactly have the chance.

Shit, is ESB, he said to Luke, "Hey, let's kill my boss and take over!" I'm pretty sure the novelisations make it clear that he did actually turn 'good' at the end there, but it's great to think that just before he threw Palpatine down the shaft he was thinking 'I've never seen him this distracted before... I could totally kill the old bugger right now!'

[Knife]

Vader's redemption is not all that, rather he got a second chance to make a choice that he fucked up 20 years before. He fell to the Dark Side to 'protect his loved ones' originally because he needed to fix the situation, not watch it go where it naturally went. Yoda made that pretty clear with the whole 'if you love them, honor theme as they pass into the Force' bit. Sure, Yoda's version sucks to, but when you boil it all down it equals 'shit happens and sometimes shit happens you can't do anything about' so trying to fix something you can't will make it worse. This is besides his control issues, where he had to control it, had to do something, anything, so people around him would be ok, no matter what those people around him thought about what it would take to help them.

Fast forward 20 years and Luke was faced with a somewhat similar choice; die or kill his father (kill his father instead of stand back and let Padme die that Anakin's choice was) and fall to the dark side. In fact, Luke faced this situation twice and each time he picked the 'correct' choice as far as the movies are concern. Personal sacrifice instead of personal gain. So when Vader saw Luke choice again to sacrifice himself for his beliefs it lead the way for Vader to make the same choice, personal sacrifice for the greater good.

Does this redeem Vader?

Guess it depends on how you view the Force. I tend to view it as the God of the SW universe. I remember the line 'Does it control my actions?... Yes, but it also follows your command.' line in ANH. AS the God of the SW universe it needs both order and chaos, structure and change. Jedi, and other Force users are just the people it chooses to act through. If the Force needs you to change something, it may lend you incredible power but also work through you, a kind of minor possession I guess, to push you down a path to change what it needs changed. If it needs you to defend something it gives you great power and possesses you a bit to push you down the path the way it wants you. I think it pushed Luke, Anakin, and Palpatine down this road. It was Anakin's actual personality coming out at the end when he was no longer being pushed down the road he needed to be down.

It's an old theme of being play things of the gods and destiny.