Why did the Empire fall after ROTJ?

[AndroAsc]

It's been a really long while since I've read EU, and a really basic question has just popped into mind while watching Clone Wars.

How did the rebels manage to topple the Empire after the events of ROTJ?

I have 2 problems with believing that the Empire was toppled after ROTJ:

1) Very conservatively, the Empire has about 20,000 ISDs and probably an order of magnitude more of support ships. In comparison, the rebel fleet in ROTJ which was supposed to be the entire rebel fleet, only has 100+ ships max based on visual evidence. The great rebel fleet was barely holding their own against a puny task force of 40 ISD and the Executor. Let's not talk about ground troops... the rebels are probably hopelessly outmatched vs the countless legions of stormtroopers in the entire galaxy.

2) Killing off Palpatine and Vader left no clear line of "succession". I do agree that high ranking imperial officers (aka imperial warlords) may engage themselves in a civil war stemming from this power vacuum. But in terms of military power, the rebel alliance should have at best enough strength to go toe-to-toe with one imperial warlord, but not go against the entire Imperial Remnant. So how did they gather sufficient clout to unite the entire galaxy? Did everyone in the Empire said... oh yeah Palps and Vaders is dead, let's just surrender to Mon Mothma puny band of rebels!!! Did everyone serving the Empire just defect after the two died!?!

[PainRack]

Same reason why the KMT took power after Yuan Shikai death in 1915.

A relatively widespread rebellion that had active state participation such as Alderaan coalesaced around the Rebel Alliance. The Alliance(I can never keep straight which name the Alliance took post Endor or how many changes there are) took power as an active state after Endor and managed to recruit various sectors to its cause. The Empire also pulled back forces to defend or fight other more central battles and the Emperor recalled forces to Byss, so allowing the Alliance to take over abandoned sectors either by popular revolt, installing their own leaders or through "conquest" of a sort.

There probably was a large leap in Alliance forces as they were able to recruit more openly and sector forces, defecting Imperial forces swelled their ranks.

In this era, they were able to seize Coruscant due to Imperial infighting against an unpopular ruler and they stabilised control post invasion. That's about it. A combination of legitimancy, lack of central support amongst Imperial forces and infighting/various threats allowed the Republic to consolidate gains and defend against various threats.

We DO know that rebel movements were incorporated into the Alliance ad hoc, although no real Imperial government appeared to do so. Just sector authorities that were more or less set aside when the Empire took direct rule

[Darth Tedious]

Wasn't the Empire competely engineered by Palpy to collapse in the event of his death? I had the impression that even if the Rebel fleet had been slaughtered folllowing the destruction of the DSII, the Empire would have still fallen (and I say that as if the Rebel fleet was the entirity of the Rebel Scum Alliance). There would have been a high llikelihood of anarchy if the RA hadn't taken over, leaving a perfect vacuum for Palpy to fill upon his return.

[Simon_Jester]

Hard to say- Palpatine may have engineered the Empire to be unstable without him, but his plans didn't always go exactly as he expected. Without the rebels, it's at least possible that some Imperial figure would have consolidated control over more of Imperial space, with the warlordism and anarchy being limited to a smaller portion of the galaxy as a whole.

As it was, you had the fracturing of the Imperial power structure, and a very shocking Rebel victory that probably convinced a lot of people to openly declare support for them. How much of the situation was gaps opening in the Empire and creating a vacuum for the Rebels to move into, and how much was the Rebels deliberately hammering open such gaps and taking over various sectors and fleets by force, it's hard to say.

[Darth Hoth]

Wasn't the Empire competely engineered by Palpy to collapse in the event of his death?

Indeed. Not only that, but he actively (if clandestinely) directed the security and intelligence services to destroy it from his stronghold on Byss (presumably for reasons of megalomania) by sabotaging the war effort and assassinating key leaders (most famously, Grand Admiral Thrawn). This is outlined most clearly in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

[lord Martiya]

Wasn't Thrawn killed by Rukh, his Noghri bodyguard because the Grand Admiral had just been warned that the entire Noghri people had switched allegiance to Leia before Rukh's presence?

[RogueIce]

Wasn't Thrawn killed by Rukh, his Noghri bodyguard because the Grand Admiral had just been warned that the entire Noghri people had switched allegiance to Leia before Rukh's presence?

Yes, but IIRC the DESB tries to say that was (somehow) Palpatine's doing. Because...quantum? I dunno, I always thought it was pretty BS myself.

[Darth Tedious]

Wasn't Thrawn killed by Rukh, his Noghri bodyguard because the Grand Admiral had just been warned that the entire Noghri people had switched allegiance to Leia before Rukh's presence?

Yes, but IIRC the DESB tries to say that was (somehow) Palpatine's doing. Because...quantum? I dunno, I always thought it was pretty BS myself.

Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side.
Palpatine had his finger in an awful lot of different pies...

Slightly off-topic, what if the Emperor had died, but Vader remained (whether or not Luke was turned) ? Would he have been able to step forward as a successor? I always wondered if Palpy intended it to be solely his Empire, or whether he just wanted it to stay in Sith hands.

[Darth Hoth]

Wasn't Thrawn killed by Rukh, his Noghri bodyguard because the Grand Admiral had just been warned that the entire Noghri people had switched allegiance to Leia before Rukh's presence?

No; that was how Zahn intended it, but it was retconned in the DESB:

When his servant, Thrawn, made his claim, Palpatine could only watch in sadness. He had hoped Thrawn would know better. It was heartening to see how effectively Thrawn dealt with the cruel hand fate had dealt him. A lesser person would have despaired. But a lesser person would have never been chosen as a Grand Admiral by Palpatine in the first place.

Still, no contender could ever be allowed to become too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return.

Wasn't Thrawn killed by Rukh, his Noghri bodyguard because the Grand Admiral had just been warned that the entire Noghri people had switched allegiance to Leia before Rukh's presence?

Yes, but IIRC the DESB tries to say that was (somehow) Palpatine's doing. Because...quantum? I dunno, I always thought it was pretty BS myself.

I liked it, myself, because of how firmly it established that Zahn's blue-skinned Mary Sue was really Palpatine's b**** all along.

[Darth Hoth]

Slightly off-topic, what if the Emperor had died, but Vader remained (whether or not Luke was turned) ? Would he have been able to step forward as a successor? I always wondered if Palpy intended it to be solely his Empire, or whether he just wanted it to stay in Sith hands.

His purpose was to keep the Empire firmly in his own hands. While he may at one point have been prepared to hand it over to a successor, his cloning magic made certain that this would no longer be necessary.

Incidentally, Palpatine as portrayed in the DESB and assorted EU (before the prequels) was never a Sithian fanatic. Rather, he used the lore of the Sith, but without paying more than lip service to their heritage. They were just one more Force sect he studied, along with the Jarvashqiine, the Tyia, the Hereiarchs, and so on.

[PainRack]

The whole Palpatine engineered the empire to fall without him or actively sought its destruction STILL doesn't answer the question of how the Empire actually fell apart.

[open_sketchbook]

Oh, I dunno. Suddenly, a huge chunk of the best and brightest Imperial officers, including the Emperor and Vader themselves, disappear along with a huge moral and industrial endeavor in the Second Death Star, plus a chunk of the Imperial Fleet's elite. It doesn't even have to be a sizable portion of Imperial resources; the moral and organizational blow alone shakes things up considerably. A few bolder sectors jump ship, taking their local forces with them. Imperial garrisons in the area are overwhelmed or desert. When the Imperials fail to retailiate due to lack of effective oversight, everyone who has a beef with the Empire gets open with their opposition; thanks to a doctrine of ruling through fear that they suddenly aren't following up on, that's a hell of a lot of people. When tax money dries up, the Imperial government and military deserts en mass.

It's not long after that the basis of the Imperial power has fallen out from under them.

[Darth Tedious]

Add to that infighting between the Grand Admirals and Moffs over who is meant to succeed the Palpatine and you pretty much have it.

[Simon_Jester]

On top of that, going by the EU there were always centers of local power not under full Imperial control- major industrialized planets like Corellia, entire species on the outer rim with their own independent (if tiny) empires. The Empire could keep such groups in line as long as the central government was capable of efficiently dispatching its forces to keep an eye on them all. But with major links in the central power structures shot out- the Emperor dead, his subordinate agencies reeling, much of the naval chain of command destroyed too, and of course the succession disputes...

Well. Naturally a large fraction of the entities in the galaxy capable of going it alone chose to exploit the distraction. Some declared independence, others probably just stopped paying attention to any orders from Imperial Center that were too inconvenient to carry out. Unpopular Imperial enforcement arms were driven off many planets, even in places where less hated branches of the government like the Starfleet would be tolerated; over the course of a few years, though, that led to more provincial revolts because there were no longer ISB men and the like to keep an eye on local separatist movements.

Add to this the existence of the Rebel Alliance, with plenty of contacts among the surviving 'old power' structures of the former Senate. They were actively trying to form a galaxy-wide government opposed to, and presenting an alternative to, the Empire... and for all their faults, in the first year or two after Endor, they probably had the best organized and most stable table of organization of any major political entity in the galaxy.

Eventually, the Imperial remnant shook out under a succession of individual leaders who actually had the resources to coordinate galaxy-wide operations- Isard, later Thrawn, and of course 'Palpatine reborn.' But that took a long time to happen, and it's no surprise that much of the Empire had already split off to do its own thing by the time they cemented control... and since each of those leaders was defeated in turn by the Rebel Alliance, the Empire just kept breaking up further every time one of its supreme leaders was killed.

Palpatine's death represented the end of long-term centralized direction for the Imperial state. Dissatisfaction with oppressive Imperial policies that had stayed quiet as long as the Empire was governed by strong central leadership raised its head once the intimidating hand of the Sith was removed from the picture.

Perhaps most importantly, Endor gave the strategic initiative to the Rebels, putting whatever was left of the Empire on the defensive against a rising tide of revolts, mutinies, and faction fights. The Rebels had plenty of choices to strike at if they wanted to pry gaps in the Empire further apart, while the Empire no longer had the strategic reserve and unified command structure needed to strike at the Rebels directly.

Except for a few relatively short periods (Thrawn managed to regain the initiative quite handily, but never had the force under his command to make much use of it), the Alliance/New Republic kept that advantage throughout the next two decades, gradually grinding the Empire further and further into the dust.

[PainRack]

On top of that, going by the EU there were always centers of local power not under full Imperial control- major industrialized planets like Corellia, entire species on the outer rim with their own independent (if tiny) empires. The Empire could keep such groups in line as long as the central government was capable of efficiently dispatching its forces to keep an eye on them all. But with major links in the central power structures shot out- the Emperor dead, his subordinate agencies reeling, much of the naval chain of command destroyed too, and of course the succession disputes...

Actually, Corellia at this point in time was under the rule of the Diktat which retained control of Corellia even as members of her security forces and etc defected to the Rebels.

Well. Naturally a large fraction of the entities in the galaxy capable of going it alone chose to exploit the distraction. Some declared independence, others probably just stopped paying attention to any orders from Imperial Center that were too inconvenient to carry out. Unpopular Imperial enforcement arms were driven off many planets, even in places where less hated branches of the government like the Starfleet would be tolerated; over the course of a few years, though, that led to more provincial revolts because there were no longer ISB men and the like to keep an eye on local separatist movements.

My belief would be that the lack of central support means that Imperial security forces could no longer exert centralised control over the planets, although this is just mere speculation on my part.

Perhaps most importantly, Endor gave the strategic initiative to the Rebels, putting whatever was left of the Empire on the defensive against a rising tide of revolts, mutinies, and faction fights. The Rebels had plenty of choices to strike at if they wanted to pry gaps in the Empire further apart, while the Empire no longer had the strategic reserve and unified command structure needed to strike at the Rebels directly.

You see, the question on everyone mind is, why did the victory at Endor give the Rebel alliance the initative? We do know how and why the Rebels gained the initative and began its expansion and legitimisation into a government. But why so?

The infighting against Issard and her takeover of the Empire, the lack of a successor is probably the most significant aspect of this, but we then run into the idea that most Imperial officers were still loyal.

[Simon_Jester]

On top of that, going by the EU there were always centers of local power not under full Imperial control- major industrialized planets like Corellia, entire species on the outer rim with their own independent (if tiny) empires. The Empire could keep such groups in line as long as the central government was capable of efficiently dispatching its forces to keep an eye on them all. But with major links in the central power structures shot out- the Emperor dead, his subordinate agencies reeling, much of the naval chain of command destroyed too, and of course the succession disputes...

Actually, Corellia at this point in time was under the rule of the Diktat which retained control of Corellia even as members of her security forces and etc defected to the Rebels.

Before Endor, my impression is that when Palpatine said "jump," the Corellian Diktat said "how high?" They might try to fudge a bit at the edges, but they were part of the Empire.

On the other hand, they weren't fully Imperial-controlled, yes, so once the Empire was forcibly decentralized, the Corellians were able to assert a much higher degree of practical independence, regardless of how much theoretical independence they'd enjoyed before.

Well. Naturally a large fraction of the entities in the galaxy capable of going it alone chose to exploit the distraction. Some declared independence, others probably just stopped paying attention to any orders from Imperial Center that were too inconvenient to carry out. Unpopular Imperial enforcement arms were driven off many planets, even in places where less hated branches of the government like the Starfleet would be tolerated; over the course of a few years, though, that led to more provincial revolts because there were no longer ISB men and the like to keep an eye on local separatist movements.

My belief would be that the lack of central support means that Imperial security forces could no longer exert centralised control over the planets, although this is just mere speculation on my part.

...How is that different from what I said?

Perhaps most importantly, Endor gave the strategic initiative to the Rebels, putting whatever was left of the Empire on the defensive against a rising tide of revolts, mutinies, and faction fights. The Rebels had plenty of choices to strike at if they wanted to pry gaps in the Empire further apart, while the Empire no longer had the strategic reserve and unified command structure needed to strike at the Rebels directly.

You see, the question on everyone mind is, why did the victory at Endor give the Rebel alliance the initative? We do know how and why the Rebels gained the initative and began its expansion and legitimisation into a government. But why so?

The infighting against Issard and her takeover of the Empire, the lack of a successor is probably the most significant aspect of this, but we then run into the idea that most Imperial officers were still loyal.

Loyal, yes- but loyal to what?

Initiative usually belongs in the hands of whichever faction has a working, centralized decision-making structure.

Post-Endor, the Rebel leadership cadre was intact. The Imperial leadership cadre had a big hole in it. Even though most Imperials remained loyal to "the Empire," there was less certainty about exactly what "the Empire" was, or who had the authority to issue orders. Even without open revolts or mutinies, there would be a tremendous amount of "order, counterorder, disorder" going on in the Imperial ranks, with various senior officials issuing mutually exclusive directives on issues that would normally have been settled by Palpatine.

You don't need active squabbling over who's in charge for the lack of a clearly defined leader to hurt the state. Even if everyone proceeds to carry out their normal duties exactly as they did before, you're still missing that powerful mainspring: the man with the authority to settle departmental disputes and order the transfer of resources from one operation to another.

So the Rebels could pick out the sectors with the least-loyal governments, or the ones who would be least able to get aid and reinforcements from what was left of the central government. They could exert pressure on a decision-making structure that was already made much more fragile with the loss of its head and with the psychological stress of a huge Rebel victory working against them.

That doesn't give them more physical strength. It does give them the initiative- the freedom to choose what, where, and how to strike. And local Imperial officials will be so busy trying to hold their own immediate turf, with no one in a good position to issue general orders for a counterattack against the Rebels, that the Imperials will not be free to choose what, where, and how to strike.

[lord Martiya]

A legitimate ruling body existed in the form of the Imperial Ruling Council, Palpatine's advisors led by Sate Pestage, who theorically ruled as regent of the Empire. Too bad that, after a good start, they screwed up big time and started infighting (courtesy of Isanne Isard), and the Imperial warlords started breaking away for very good reasons (they were too busy fighting each other to do their job and Isard was not as good as she believed to be).
Their only successes were installing Thrawn as head of their last forces, retaking Coruscant after the New Republic lowered its guard with Thrawn's death and getting Palpatine killed with their sabotaged clones, and the last one backfired when the Royal Guards found out and the last survivor started killing them for treason.

[Simon_Jester]

A legitimate ruling body existed in the form of the Imperial Ruling Council, Palpatine's advisors led by Sate Pestage, who theorically ruled as regent of the Empire.

But how legitimate, and how practical is the theory? People might acknowledge that the Imperial government is headed by Pestage, but will they listen to him as if he were Palpatine? Will he be able to fill the shoes of the legendary political genius who saved a galaxy during the Clone Wars and ruled it with an iron fist for twenty years thereafter?

Or will he face departmental squabbles, slowness and laxity in enforcing his will, of a sort that Palpatine and Vader never had to confront or steamrolled right over?

Legitimacy is more than just a matter of formal titles; that way lies the Kerensky Fallacy. To have legitimacy, people must believe you are the one who can and should govern the nation. I doubt Pestage ever managed to create that belief.

[lord Martiya]

People initially believed it because Palpatine said so and he appeared as already ruling since a few years. Once he started fucking up, the Empire started breaking.

[Simon_Jester]

But behind the scenes, it was always Palpatine's brain that dominated the Imperial government, even if Palpatine created the impression that Pestage was in charge. That would have had an effect almost immediately: people who previously would not cross Pestage for fear that the Emperor (or Vader) would respond to it would no longer fear him for that reason.

[Knife]

I was under the impression that Palpatine set up various ruling bodies with clear antagonism between them, so if he fell, each group would be at each others throat for power; hence, the Empire would collapse without Palpatine. Saying 'but how did the Empire fall, if Palpatine set it up to fall without him' is self describing. Palpatine set it up with various fiefdoms inside the Empire with great power but all answerable to him. Without Palpatine, those fiefdoms are more independent and willing/able to seize their own power and see other groups as the 'enemy' and war with them, destroying the whole as they go.

[lord Martiya]

But behind the scenes, it was always Palpatine's brain that dominated the Imperial government, even if Palpatine created the impression that Pestage was in charge. That would have had an effect almost immediately: people who previously would not cross Pestage for fear that the Emperor (or Vader) would respond to it would no longer fear him for that reason.

I know. That's why I wrote that Pestage appeared to already rule. And Isard started manipulating him and the Ruling Council more or less five minutes after having the 'Palpatine Is Dead' party on Coruscant shut down by stormtroopers.

[Simon_Jester]

But behind the scenes, it was always Palpatine's brain that dominated the Imperial government, even if Palpatine created the impression that Pestage was in charge. That would have had an effect almost immediately: people who previously would not cross Pestage for fear that the Emperor (or Vader) would respond to it would no longer fear him for that reason.

I know. That's why I wrote that Pestage appeared to already rule. And Isard started manipulating him and the Ruling Council more or less five minutes after having the 'Palpatine Is Dead' party on Coruscant shut down by stormtroopers.

Right.

But under those conditions, it's very, very easy for me to see how the quality, reliability, and enforceability of government decisions would decay rapidly. It doesn't even require any deliberate effort by Palpatine to make the Empire ungovernable without him- the perfectly mundane forces of bureaucracy and the fact that people like Isard and Pestage are no substitute for Palpatine and Vader will do the job.

[Scottish Ninja]

The way I understood it, Palpatine held together the various powerful factions within the Empire by setting them against each other and then being the one to whom these factions would turn for favors to gain a leg up against their rivals. Since each faction was concerned with its machinations against its rivals, none had the energy to challenge the Empire - not least when they were all indebted to Palpatine over various matters. In this sense Palpatine could never be replaced because no one else was owed that personal debt, and could not be attacked so as not to lose access to his aid.

Not even Vader could truly take over the helm of the Empire, as his source of power was the personal fear he inspired; he had no political connections and therefore no political power; and only local power over a military fracturing along political lines. If Palpatine were to die suddenly, I see Vader running around the galaxy trying to terrorize military units back into line - but since no one owed him any personal loyalty, as soon as he left the officers he hadn't killed would likely start plotting against him, and the military would disintegrate even faster.

[aussiemuscle308]

it just proves the need for a few more sequels i'm sure the Empire is down, but not out. the 'celebrations' you see are probably just propaganda.