Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

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marsh8472
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

An alternate reality is not the same thing as a universe. A (or, more accurately, the) universe is defined as the sum total of existence that we can perceive. If we can perceive alternate realities, they are part of our universe; the fact that they are often colloquially referred to as "parallel universes" does not make that terminology correct.
The theory can also run into problems if the universe is infinite in size and infinite in the amount of energy. If you lose energy you still have infinite energy so the law is not violated since a boundless amount of energy is still there.

If this darth wong guy made a paper which gives an explanation that satisfies you then why bring it up?
Furthermore, naming sources proves nothing. What demonstrates that these instances are not hallucinations or bullshit like the others (given that one includes Leia talking with Q-like aliens with a bag of tricks)?
I need to know you won't just say something like it doesn't need to count since it's s-canon. Or why doesn't someone else go look it up?
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Teleros »

Meh, it'll do as far as quick introductions go. I'd like to get a proper analysis done of those books some day, but don't expect anything soon :P .
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by SapphireFox »

marsh8472 wrote:
An alternate reality is not the same thing as a universe. A (or, more accurately, the) universe is defined as the sum total of existence that we can perceive. If we can perceive alternate realities, they are part of our universe; the fact that they are often colloquially referred to as "parallel universes" does not make that terminology correct.
The theory can also run into problems if the universe is infinite in size and infinite in the amount of energy. If you lose energy you still have infinite energy so the law is not violated since a boundless amount of energy is still there.

If this darth wong guy made a paper which gives an explanation that satisfies you then why bring it up?
Probably because your explanation just isn't making any sense. :|
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Hoth »

marsh8472 wrote:The theory can also run into problems if the universe is infinite in size and infinite in the amount of energy. If you lose energy you still have infinite energy so the law is not violated since a boundless amount of energy is still there.
Are you seriously using this non-argument to argue that conservation of energy is not in fact true, or are you just trolling by now?

Do you accept the principle of conservation of energy or not? If we cannot agree on such basic concepts, the debate is even more pointless than I figured.
If this darth wong guy made a paper which gives an explanation that satisfies you then why bring it up?
You brought up your own theories on time travel. I pointed you to Wong's, which do an infinitely better job of rationalising the evidence and, to use the blunt language of the board, shit less on basic science.
I need to know you won't just say something like it doesn't need to count since it's s-canon. Or why doesn't someone else go look it up?
The burden of proof in on you to produce evidence to support your arguments. Why do you assume that others will do your work for you?
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Hoth »

Teleros wrote:Meh, it'll do as far as quick introductions go. I'd like to get a proper analysis done of those books some day, but don't expect anything soon :P .
Well, if you get around to it, I would love to see it. As you might have surmised from other discussions around here, I am a die-hard Edward Smith fan myself. (Although Lensman is my favourite of his works.) Though I fear I took us off on a tangent, so back to the "topic" at hand. :P
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

Do you accept the principle of conservation of energy or not? If we cannot agree on such basic concepts, the debate is even more pointless than I figured.
If I say no will you stop posting in the thread? Plus you'll have to be more specific since there's a difference between the conservation of energy on star trek and the conservation of energy in our reality.

Using this logic I would say no in the star trek tv show:

If the conservation of energy is true then time travel is impossible.

We see that time travel happens on star trek. This is not in dispute.

We take the contrapositive to get: if time travel is possible then the conservation of energy is false.

time travel is possible since we see it therefore the conservation is energy is false
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Darth Hoth »

. . .

In other words, you did not read the article on Occam's Razor that I linked you to.

If you were at all interested in science, you would understand parsimony, or at least how it dictates that out of two competing theories, one picks the one which does not require one to ignore conservation of energy, causality, and good sense.

So be it. I am done "debating" with a brick wall. And I see that the others were smarter than I and have already pulled out.

Enjoy the remainder of your stay here on the board. I will agree with those who have given voice to a feeling that it will be short.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

What you say it pointless though. I don't need to read a theory by your master to know that.

This is going to be my answer regardless of what you show me:

If the conservation of energy is true then time travel is impossible. <-- if this statement is true then I don't believe that the conservation of energy holds true in star trek. Otherwise I'd have to accept that time travel never occurred on star trek which would be a lie.

If the conservation of energy is true then time travel is impossible. <-- if this statement is false then this statement must be true using pure logic: the conservation of energy is true and time travel is possible. If that's the case then we have nothing to argue about so no reason to bring it up.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Serafina »

marsh8472 wrote:
Do you accept the principle of conservation of energy or not? If we cannot agree on such basic concepts, the debate is even more pointless than I figured.
If I say no will you stop posting in the thread? Plus you'll have to be more specific since there's a difference between the conservation of energy on star trek and the conservation of energy in our reality.

Using this logic I would say no in the star trek tv show:

If the conservation of energy is true then time travel is impossible.

We see that time travel happens on star trek. This is not in dispute.

We take the contrapositive to get: if time travel is possible then the conservation of energy is false.

time travel is possible since we see it therefore the conservation is energy is false
Dear stargods - what is it about Trek that all hardcore-fans are seemingly unabel to graps real science?
Look, parsimony and various other things clearly say that YOU ARE FRIGGING WRONG, TREKTARD!
Seriously, Matrix-Wank-Philosophers are smarter than you.

I will continue debunking you, don't worry about that. But i fear it won't be for long - i think you would be banned for ignoring debate rules and sheer stupidity ten times over - but you are a good chewtoy.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Teleros »

Otherwise I'd have to accept that time travel never occurred on star trek which would be a lie.
Or you could just accept alternate theories on how that time travel works.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

Teleros wrote:
Otherwise I'd have to accept that time travel never occurred on star trek which would be a lie.
Or you could just accept alternate theories on how that time travel works.
yeah but it's still not going to change anything. I'm not even using theories here, I'm just telling you what the response will be regardless of any theory you present.

There are only 2 possible outcomes

If other theories show that conservation of energy and time travel are possible at the same time we have nothing to argue about.

If everything shows that conservation of energy and time travel are impossible at the same time then I'd be forced to reject the conservation of energy. It's either that or reject time travel on star trek, which is absurd considering all the time travel episodes and movies they have.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Oskuro »

marsh8472 wrote:Fleets of borg spheres are constantly sent to the star wars galaxy fluidic space. Each one goes back in time in years as far back as 3,000,000 BBY BC if necessary. The goal is the same as the borg's goal in the movie Star Trek First ContactVoyager episode "Scorpion": the assimilation of every species before they are technologically able to defend themselves so there is little to no resistance.
OH WAIT....

Image

Because since your civilization can travel back in time to destroy superior enemies, you really don't need the help of Star Trek's short bus equivalent: Voyager

Really, do you even watch the show? Or do you just look for stuff you can use in some Trek-wank site?
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

I really don't see your point. We see the borg, sphere builders, xindi, krenim, Na'kuhl, use time travel to wipe out their enemies. Just because we don't see them do it with each of their enemies doesn't mean they don't try, aren't doing it, or still are capable of doing it but choose not to.
Last edited by marsh8472 on 2010-02-23 05:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Teleros »

I mentioned that before and he didn't respond Oskuro :P .
If other theories show that conservation of energy and time travel are possible at the same time we have nothing to argue about.
I think we have to assume that they are not mutually exclusive, although if one has to change somewhat to meet this criteria (eg time travel = parallel universes or something) then so be it.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Serafina »

marsh8472 wrote:I really don't see your point. We see the borg, sphere builders, xindi, krenim, Na'kuhl, use time travel to wipe out their enemies. Just because we don't see them do it with each of their enemies doesn't mean they don't try, aren't doing it, or still aren't capable of doing it but choose not to.
Look, everyone:
The posterboy for trekkie stupidity (PTS) does not understand that if you have a powerfull, perfect weapon, you will use it every damn time stuff gets serious.
PTS has obviously never read real timetravel stories without the Magic Reset Button (TM).
Otherwise he would realize how reliable timetravel can be used.
Of course, he also misses the child-level conclusion that this means that Trekwank-timetravel is NOT reliable.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by marsh8472 »

Serafina wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:I really don't see your point. We see the borg, sphere builders, xindi, krenim, Na'kuhl, use time travel to wipe out their enemies. Just because we don't see them do it with each of their enemies doesn't mean they don't try, aren't doing it, or still aren't capable of doing it but choose not to.
Look, everyone:
The posterboy for trekkie stupidity (PTS) does not understand that if you have a powerfull, perfect weapon, you will use it every damn time stuff gets serious.
PTS has obviously never read real timetravel stories without the Magic Reset Button (TM).
Otherwise he would realize how reliable timetravel can be used.
Of course, he also misses the child-level conclusion that this means that Trekwank-timetravel is NOT reliable.
Yeah but what makes you think they don't use it? Maybe species 8472 was originally a million times more powerful in an alternate timeline but the borg went back in time a sufficient number of times to where they can defeat them.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Oskuro »

Teleros wrote:I mentioned that before and he didn't respond Oskuro :P .
Meh, just wanted to make the quote fixing gag :D


Completely agreeing with Fina's points, though. No wonder Mike won't bother even glancing in marshy's general direction.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Teleros »

marsh8472 wrote:Yeah but what makes you think they don't use it? Maybe species 8472 was originally a million times more powerful in an alternate timeline but the borg went back in time a sufficient number of times to where they can defeat them.
The Borg, you will recall, were losing, forcing them to ally with Voyager in order for the crew of said Starfleet ship to come up with a solution. During the time to develop said solution, lots more Borg died. Fortunately though, Species 8472 were wussy enough that after seeing the effects of this weapon they ran away with their tail between their legs, instead of spamming Voyager with ships until it ran out of torpedoes or whatever and was destroyed.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Serafina »

marsh8472 wrote:
Serafina wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:I really don't see your point. We see the borg, sphere builders, xindi, krenim, Na'kuhl, use time travel to wipe out their enemies. Just because we don't see them do it with each of their enemies doesn't mean they don't try, aren't doing it, or still aren't capable of doing it but choose not to.
Look, everyone:
The posterboy for trekkie stupidity (PTS) does not understand that if you have a powerfull, perfect weapon, you will use it every damn time stuff gets serious.
PTS has obviously never read real timetravel stories without the Magic Reset Button (TM).
Otherwise he would realize how reliable timetravel can be used.
Of course, he also misses the child-level conclusion that this means that Trekwank-timetravel is NOT reliable.
Yeah but what makes you think they don't use it? Maybe species 8472 was originally a million times more powerful in an alternate timeline but the borg went back in time a sufficient number of times to where they can defeat them.
Imperial Intelligence Report #19764:
Our opponents are clearly unfamiliar with Strategy.
Posessing the means to avoid fight altogether and still claim the resources of their enemy, they choose to merely weaken him. However, for some unimaginable reason, they left the enemy so powerfull that they were still unable to defeat him.
till in posession of their weapon, they did not use it for yet unknown reasons - we suggest that their inefficient way of thinking is simply unable of creative thinking.
This seems to be a common trait of most civilisations in that galaxy - as an example, the Federation failed to realize the potential of a planet-sterilizing weapon (which they need due to the negligible poweroutput of their starships).

Conclusion: We should investigate if there is a common cause for this obvious lack of intelligence - either a disease or some other contamination. Due to the lack of military threats, this should be made our new top priority.

So there you have it: the Empire might not invade, since there might be stupiditiy-disease (which can be contracted by wanking too much to Trek).
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Big Phil »

Why are you all feeding the troll? The President of the 7 of 9 fan club is now resorting to time travel in his argument. His next post will be about Q zapping the Empire into non-existence. Really, it just gets more stupid every time.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Serafina »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Why are you all feeding the troll? The President of the 7 of 9 fan club is now resorting to time travel in his argument. His next post will be about Q zapping the Empire into non-existence. Really, it just gets more stupid every time.
I like to watch the downfall of tards. Especially if they are not in any danger to drop on other people.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:Why are you all feeding the troll? The President of the 7 of 9 fan club is now resorting to time travel in his argument. His next post will be about Q zapping the Empire into non-existence. Really, it just gets more stupid every time.
Actually, time travel has been his modus operandi since the beginning in one form or another. The Krenim's "erase things from time" weapon, Q's "anti-time" ploy from TNG. This is just the most obvious example. :wink:
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

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Formless wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Why are you all feeding the troll? The President of the 7 of 9 fan club is now resorting to time travel in his argument. His next post will be about Q zapping the Empire into non-existence. Really, it just gets more stupid every time.
Actually, time travel has been his modus operandi since the beginning in one form or another. The Krenim's "erase things from time" weapon, Q's "anti-time" ploy from TNG. This is just the most obvious example. :wink:
That's propably because it's perfect for no-number-wankers.
After all, you only have to go back far enough, and the timetravel itself seemingly involves no numbers.
Of course, it only seems that way because they are too stupid, as he demonstrated more than sufficiently.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Formless »

I wonder what the energy expenditure of these time machines are, anyway. They are, after all, machines and therefor cannot be 100% energy efficient at what they do according to thermodynamics. The only question is how much energy does it take to go back x years in time? And does this answer why the Borg went to the end of humanity's third world war but not the second? No numbers indeed.
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Re: Borg with their time travel technology vs Star Wars

Post by Big Phil »

Formless wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Why are you all feeding the troll? The President of the 7 of 9 fan club is now resorting to time travel in his argument. His next post will be about Q zapping the Empire into non-existence. Really, it just gets more stupid every time.
Actually, time travel has been his modus operandi since the beginning in one form or another. The Krenim's "erase things from time" weapon, Q's "anti-time" ploy from TNG. This is just the most obvious example. :wink:
Technically, his initial argument was that the Krenim timeship was impervious to Star Wars weaponry... it was only later that he resorted to the lame time travel cliche.

Regardless, feeding the trolls is bad form, particularly when they're as foul-smelling as this unwashed serial masturbator
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