Vulcans and Federation question

[Gil Hamilton]

Given the level of genetic engineering evident in the Federation (at least), that doesn't mean squat.

I mean, in one episode, we see a Federation sponsored research station making humans that have a faster growth rate, improved mental abilities, full telepathy, telekinesis, and a rather aggressive immune system.

Making the hybrid of two semi-related species able to breed with a parent spieces shouldn't be to difficult.

Are you kidding me? There is several orders of magnitude difference between getting those effects (assuming that psychic powers exist, which in ST they do) and crossbreeding two lifeforms that supposedly evolved on different worlds all together.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are talking out your ass.

Epsecially after the whole 'we manipulated evolution across billions of years on dozens of planets to bring you this message' episode.

Ah, yeah, the episode that even if we bother to pay attention to it is completely irrelevant to modern life based on the fact that the episode claimed that this happened billions of years ago. By the logic of the episode men and cabbage should be able to breed. After all, men and cabbage are still more closely related to a lifeform which had an evolutionary departure point billions of years ago.

[Gandalf]

Here's something that always irked me;

Vulcans live notably longer than humans. Wouldn't this mean that they would be naturally advantaged in longer term careers?

Assuming that from the day they graduate Starfleet Academy, it takes forty years to become an admiral. By this time, a human would be sixty, and possibly looking to retirement.

As an example, Tuvok is over a hundred and still in better physical and mental shape than those around him.

[NecronLord]

It should be noted that Saavik, Spocks wife, is half romulan half human. While the books aren't considered canon, one book (not shatners) notes that they have a son. This is 2 hybrids, although similar, having children.

In TOS at least, there's no evidence that Romulans are anything more an ethnicity/polity of the same species. That's like being half english, half french.

[Darth Onasi]

Here's something that always irked me;

Vulcans live notably longer than humans. Wouldn't this mean that they would be naturally advantaged in longer term careers?

Assuming that from the day they graduate Starfleet Academy, it takes forty years to become an admiral. By this time, a human would be sixty, and possibly looking to retirement.

As an example, Tuvok is over a hundred and still in better physical and mental shape than those around him.

I recall that in Data's case at least, he was required to go through training and ranks for far longer than a human. Lore remarked that this was obviously a system designed to compensate for human frailties.
While I don't think anything says this would be applied to aliens with longer life spans, it sort of makes sense, as the Vulcan Admirals we do see appear older than Tuvok for example.

[Junghalli]

In TOS at least, there's no evidence that Romulans are anything more an ethnicity/polity of the same species. That's like being half english, half french.

I think what he was saying is that you had two human-Vulcan/Romulan hybrids producing offspring.

[General Zod]

In TOS at least, there's no evidence that Romulans are anything more an ethnicity/polity of the same species. That's like being half english, half french.

I think what he was saying is that you had two human-Vulcan/Romulan hybrids producing offspring.

A hybrid is the offspring of two separate species. Romulans and Vulcans are clearly not separate species anymore than the British or French are, so using the term hybrid is rather dumb.

[Gandalf]

I recall that in Data's case at least, he was required to go through training and ranks for far longer than a human. Lore remarked that this was obviously a system designed to compensate for human frailties.

Don't forget that Data's still stumped by a lot of basic humanoid things like how emotions work. I could see why he took so long to go through the ranks once he graduated.

While I don't think anything says this would be applied to aliens with longer life spans, it sort of makes sense, as the Vulcan Admirals we do see appear older than Tuvok for example.

Not all of them. Sitak from Favor The Bold and T'Lara from Rules of Engagement look around the same age as Tuvok.

The only one that looks notably older is Savar from Conspiracy.

[spaceviking]

In TOS at least, there's no evidence that Romulans are anything more an ethnicity/polity of the same species. That's like being half english, half french.

I think what he was saying is that you had two human-Vulcan/Romulan hybrids producing offspring.

A hybrid is the offspring of two separate species. Romulans and Vulcans are clearly not separate species anymore than the British or French are, so using the term hybrid is rather dumb.

They may be more different then French and British. Remember the TNG episode where Worf is identified as the only possible donor to a injured Romulan.

[General Zod]

They may be more different then French and British. Remember the TNG episode where Worf is identified as the only possible donor to a injured Romulan.

I'm not sure why that would matter much. Vulcans and humans can interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring, and if I'm remembering a DS9 episode correctly so can Klingons and Romulans.

[Uraniun235]

They may be more different then French and British. Remember the TNG episode where Worf is identified as the only possible donor to a injured Romulan.

The "sensible" answer would be that the Romulan had a bloodtype which none of the Vulcans on-board had, although it's still a silly fiat in order to enable the "Worf hates Romulans soooo much, he'd rather let 'em die than donate blood to them!" plot.

If I remember right the episode was even more retarded though; something about Vulcans and Romulans being 'too different' or some such bullshit.

[Junghalli]

A hybrid is the offspring of two separate species. Romulans and Vulcans are clearly not separate species anymore than the British or French are, so using the term hybrid is rather dumb.

I think we're still miscommunicating. Here's the original quote:

It should be noted that Saavik, Spocks wife, is half romulan half human. While the books aren't considered canon, one book (not shatners) notes that they have a son. This is 2 hybrids, although similar, having children.

He's talking about a Vulcan-human cross successfully reproducing with a Romulan-human cross.

[Uraniun235]

Wait when did Saavik become half-romulan/half-human? I thought she was half-Vulcan/half-Romulan.

[Junghalli]

Wait when did Saavik become half-romulan/half-human? I thought she was half-Vulcan/half-Romulan.

Beats the hell out of me and I'm pretty sure it's totally non-canon anyway.

[Bounty]

Wait when did Saavik become half-romulan/half-human? I thought she was half-Vulcan/half-Romulan.

She is, that's how it's in the script. Unless the later books tried to retcon it, of course, but there's nothing on Memory Beta about it.

[General Zod]

He's talking about a Vulcan-human cross successfully reproducing with a Romulan-human cross.

I know what he's talking about. I don't see how that changes the point that using the term hybrid is dumb.

[Junghalli]

I know what he's talking about. I don't see how that changes the point that using the term hybrid is dumb.

I think Vulcans are different enough from humans that you can legitimately consider them at least seperate subspecies and refer to a cross-breed as a hybrid. They have copper-based blood, different arrangement of organs, and a different mating cycle (Pon Farr). Interfertility or not humans and Vulcans are quite biologically distinct from each other; they are not just different ethnic groups.

We call coyote-wolf crosses hybrids, despite the fact they can produce fertile offspring. I don't see how this is really any different.

If I remember right the episode was even more retarded though; something about Vulcans and Romulans being 'too different' or some such bullshit.

You can rationalize it by suggesting the guy had a blood type that isn't around anymore on Vulcan, due to interbreeding with people with more common blood types, but the blood type survived in the Romulans.

Another possibility: a guy on SB once advanced a theory that the Romulans might have interbred extensively with some other (sub)species, as they have lumpier foreheads than Vulcans. I'm not sure about this since as I remember some TNG Vulcans also had sort of lumpy foreheads, so it could just be natural variation within the species. But if you run with the idea, it might explain the "too different" thing.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wait when did Saavik become half-romulan/half-human? I thought she was half-Vulcan/half-Romulan.

How can someone BE half-Vulcan/half-Romulan? I thought even in extremely narrow StarTrek term, they were considered the same species. I suppose they can be Vulcan/Romulan "hybrid" in the same way its possible to be a Human/Betazoid "hybrid" or something.

[Junghalli]

How can someone BE half-Vulcan/half-Romulan?

In the same way you can be half-French/half-German. It's an ethnic distinction but obviously ludicrous as a biological one.

Anyway, either way it suggests Vulcan/human hybrids can successfully mate back with Vulcans, but I'm pretty sure the "Spock had a kid with Saavik" thing is totally non-canon so it doesn't count.

[Stofsk]

Here's something that always irked me;

Vulcans live notably longer than humans. Wouldn't this mean that they would be naturally advantaged in longer term careers?

I agree with this, with the proviso that just because you can be naturally advantaged towards a long term career, doesn't mean you will be willing to stick to that career. Tuvok left Starfleet for a time to do... other stuff. IIRC.

Assuming that from the day they graduate Starfleet Academy, it takes forty years to become an admiral. By this time, a human would be sixty, and possibly looking to retirement.

Forty years is a bit excessive an amount of time to expect someone to become an admiral. Depending on how you want to measure rates of advancement; even a conservative rate, say 4 years to climb every rank, would see you hit the bottom tier admiral rank in your mid-40's (assuming you graduate SFA as an ensign at 21 or 22, and take 4 years at a time between promotions). Most of the admirals we have seen look like they're in the mid-to-late 40's or 50's. Some, who are clearly approaching retirement age, look like they're in their 60's or older.

As an example, Tuvok is over a hundred and still in better physical and mental shape than those around him.

Yeah, but Tuvok may not want to be an admiral. Tuvok may not be politically minded enough to play the 'career game' in order to seek advancement. And further, we have seen Vulcan admirals before, so why promote Tuvok to admiral just because he's been around the block for a time, when there are likely Vulcans who have been around longer than he has and are already admirals?

[Gil Hamilton]

In the same way you can be half-French/half-German. It's an ethnic distinction but obviously ludicrous as a biological one.

Nonsense, the French and Germans can't breed. That would produce a creature whose love of extremely electric techno would destroy us all and I don't want to imagine such a thing.