Vulcans and Federation question

[petesampras]

In Startrek Enterprise, Vulcans are portrayed as a vastly more powerful than Humans. In the later series, they are a member of the Federation, which is a human dominated organisation. Is this fall in significance ever explained in the series?

[General Zod]

Human dominated? Doesn't seem that way to me. The Federation had an alien President in Star Trek VI (or was it IV?) after all.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Several reasons:

As equals in the Federations, they wont be witholding tech from the humans any more.

Humans were the ones that took a leadership role in bringing the founding members together when for years (decades) they had been at war or relatively hostile to eachother - the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites etc. They humans mediated it all and were the "neutral" party.

Vulcans only mate once every 7 years. Presumably humanity grew in numbers far faster than the Vulcans did. I don't think Vulcans have "litters"?

As noted in the series, the humans had developed the technology at a much faster rate than the Vulcans. It took humanity a few years to go from Warp 2 to Warp 5. It took the Vulcans about 100 years. They lack imagination and it seems are far too cautious to strive ahead.

[Uraniun235]

The Federation President appeared to be human in Star Trek 4. By Star Trek 6 there was a new President, who if I remember right was supposed to be an alien. Then in DS9 we saw a President with a lot more forehead makeup.



We know that Sarek did not approve of Spock's choice to enter Starfleet. We can speculate from there that Vulcans may tend to prefer not to join/participate in the military, and if the humans are willing to go sailing off into the deadly unknown, so much the better.

[General Zod]

We know that Sarek did not approve of Spock's choice to enter Starfleet. We can speculate from there that Vulcans may tend to prefer not to join/participate in the military, and if the humans are willing to go sailing off into the deadly unknown, so much the better.

This seems to be the case; there was that one Federation ship in DS9 with an all-Vulcan crew (not sure how they pulled that off), and any uniquely Vulcan ships they showed seemed to be exclusively science vessels.

[NetKnight]

Good points. Also, as I recall, there has been some speculation in previous threads here that the Romulan War devastated the fleets of the 'established' founding powers of the Federation, including the Vulcans, leaving the latecomer Earth Starfleet the early Federation's de facto main line fleet. One could surmise from this theory that with humans bearing the brunt of military affairs, Vulcans felt able/compelled to turn their focus inward. After all, they had the internal issues from S4 of Enterprise to deal with, and those reforms, to say nothing of a devastating war against their 'cousins', tended towards isolationism in the first place.
The evidence of Enterprise does seem to strongly suggest that non-human fleets necessarily bore the brunt of the early Romulan war. After all, IIRC, S4 Earth had 2 Warp 5 Enterprise-class ships, and a handful of smaller pre-Enterprise warships, which would be basically worthless for pretty much everything but the defense of Sol. Just look at the makeup of the coalition fleet assembled to destroy the Romulan drone to get a sense of what early war Allied military operations may well have looked like.


As for the Federation Presidency, all of the non-human presidents were members of one-off species we've never heard of elsewhere, were they not? While of course our limited knowledge of the Trek universe precludes doing more then educated speculation about the relative influence of these 'minor' (in screentime, at the very least) species, it should be noted that as a general political principle, figureheads work best when they have no power base to call their own. Remember, the President of the "Paradise Lost" arc of the 2370s seems to have been "selected" for that office, not elected by a popular majority of Federation citizens. That doesn't prove he couldn't, of course, but it can make his presidency consistent with not having major popular influence.

[spaceviking]

How many human like species seem to be in the federation, ie betaziods etc. This may somewhat skew the apparent level of human dominance, though I'm sure they are the most represented member of starfleet.

[Johonebesus]

Perhaps there was some formal agreement by which the Humans had the responsibility of building and maintaining the Starfleet. We would particularly expect to see more Andorians, since they were established in TOS as being quite aggressive. One would think they would be attracted to military service, yet they seem rarer than Vulcans. Maybe Earth was given control over the Starfleet to assuage rivalries amongst the other member states.

It is also possible that Starfleet wasn't nearly as unified as it seemed. Politically Vulcan seemed more like an allied but sovereign state than an incorporated member state in a federation. Unless Vulcan was unusual, it would seem that the Federation was a very loose organization indeed. Maybe each major member state had its own shipyard, and ships were crewed mostly with citizens of the systems where they were constructed. Exceptions might be seen in odd circumstances, like dual citizenship/residency due to parentage, so that an occasional Vulcan or Andorian could show up on an Earth ship. Haven't most of the non-human crew members seen on Enterprises been half human: Spock, Troi, the half Romulan who got caught up in the witch hunt?

[Uraniun235]

This seems to be the case; there was that one Federation ship in DS9 with an all-Vulcan crew (not sure how they pulled that off), and any uniquely Vulcan ships they showed seemed to be exclusively science vessels.

There was also the precedent of an all-Vulcan ship in TOS, which was destroyed by the giant space amoeba.

[General Zod]

This seems to be the case; there was that one Federation ship in DS9 with an all-Vulcan crew (not sure how they pulled that off), and any uniquely Vulcan ships they showed seemed to be exclusively science vessels.

There was also the precedent of an all-Vulcan ship in TOS, which was destroyed by the giant space amoeba.

Wasn't that an actual science vessel from Vulcan though, and not a Starfleet ship? (Should have said Starfleet ship rather than Federation ship earlier, but meh).

[Singular Intellect]

Human dominated? Doesn't seem that way to me. The Federation had an alien President in Star Trek VI (or was it IV?) after all.

That objection is as valid as suggesting the US is not dominated by white people because they have a black president.

[Uraniun235]

The Vulcan ship was the Intrepid, which had been sent by Starfleet to investigate the disappearance of star systems. It was also mentioned as having a crew of 400, which lines up roughly with other Constitution class starships.

[Alyeska]

There was another Vulcan ship in TNG. Geordi's mother was the Captain. It was something like 90% Vulcan crew and it drove her nuts.

[spaceviking]

Would all the vulcans on a ship get on the same Pon Far cycle? Otherwise an all Vulcan crew means a lot of return trips to Vulcan.

[bilateralrope]

Would all the vulcans on a ship get on the same Pon Far cycle? Otherwise an all Vulcan crew means a lot of return trips to Vulcan.

Or they could have their partners on the ship with them so there is no need to return to Vulcan.

[spaceviking]

Would all the vulcans on a ship get on the same Pon Far cycle? Otherwise an all Vulcan crew means a lot of return trips to Vulcan.

Or they could have their partners on the ship with them so there is no need to return to Vulcan.

Wasn't Vulcan itself an important part of Spock's Pon Far, besides being a good place to find a Vulcan mate

[Gandalf]

Wasn't Vulcan itself an important part of Spock's Pon Far, besides being a good place to find a Vulcan mate

There's precedent for Vulcans mating elsewhere.

I believe that the planet is just there for ceremonial value.

[NecronLord]

Human dominated? Doesn't seem that way to me. The Federation had an alien President in Star Trek VI (or was it IV?) after all.

The Klingons seem to think it is "Everyone knows the federation is a homo-sapiens only club" - and humans are very numerous on the council.

[Darth Wong]

How many human like species seem to be in the federation, ie betaziods etc. This may somewhat skew the apparent level of human dominance, though I'm sure they are the most represented member of starfleet.

In DS9, they use the terms "human" and "Federation" interchangeably in conversation. It's not at all unreasonable to say that the Federation is dominated by humans. The difference between them and the Klingons and Cardassians and Romulans is that they aren't a race-empire, but they are still dominated by one race.

Perhaps the Vulcans allowed the humans to monopolize military operations because of their pacifist ideals, and they hoped to take a dominant role in Federation scientific research. But they failed to realize that he who controls the military tends to control the entire society, so they ended up being relegated to a less authoritative role without having really planned it that way.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think that alot of the "races" that make up the Federation ARE humans or human derivatives. Like Betazoids, for example. They've got psychic powers, black on black pupils, and, what, they desperately need to get their hump on when they become middle aged? Other than that, completely human. Given Betazed's relative proximity to Earth, their ability to interbreed with people known as humans, and their virtually identical phenology, its reasonable to conclude they descended from man and were a very early colony.

It could be that the Federation definition of a "human" is somewhat narrow, while other races, like Klingons have a very broad definition that incompasses most of the races of the Fderation, hence they use "human", "Starfleet", "Earth" and "the Federation" somewhat interchangably..

[Junghalli]

I think that alot of the "races" that make up the Federation ARE humans or human derivatives. Like Betazoids, for example. They've got psychic powers, black on black pupils, and, what, they desperately need to get their hump on when they become middle aged? Other than that, completely human. Given Betazed's relative proximity to Earth, their ability to interbreed with people known as humans, and their virtually identical phenology, its reasonable to conclude they descended from man and were a very early colony.

You can say that of most of the species in Star Trek though. Klingons can interbreed with humans and make fertile hybrids, which means they can't be seperated from us by much more than coyotes are seperated from dogs. The same may or may not be true of Vulcans/Romulans (they can interbreed with us, I don't remember if it's ever been confirmed whether the hybrids are fertile though - even if they aren't that still makes them relatively closely related species to us).

I've long since decided that in my personal canon the Trek universe is actually full of humans transplanted by the Preservers, with varying degrees of genetic modification. It all makes a hell of a lot more sense that way.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Simon Tarses' paternal grandfather was Romulan making Simon Tarses' dad half human half Romulan... he had a kid and passed that down to Simon, making him 1/4 Romulan. This was in the episode of TNG entitled The Drumhead. That makes the hybrids fertile.

[Solauren]

Simon Tarses' paternal grandfather was Romulan making Simon Tarses' dad half human half Romulan... he had a kid and passed that down to Simon, making him 1/4 Romulan. This was in the episode of TNG entitled The Drumhead. That makes the hybrids fertile.

Given the level of genetic engineering evident in the Federation (at least), that doesn't mean squat.

I mean, in one episode, we see a Federation sponsored research station making humans that have a faster growth rate, improved mental abilities, full telepathy, telekinesis, and a rather aggressive immune system.

Making the hybrid of two semi-related species able to breed with a parent spieces shouldn't be to difficult.

Epsecially after the whole 'we manipulated evolution across billions of years on dozens of planets to bring you this message' episode.

[Alien-Carrot]

It should be noted that Saavik, Spocks wife, is half romulan half human. While the books aren't considered canon, one book (not shatners) notes that they have a son. This is 2 hybrids, although similar, having children.

[General Zod]

It should be noted that Saavik, Spocks wife, is half romulan half human. While the books aren't considered canon, one book (not shatners) notes that they have a son. This is 2 hybrids, although similar, having children.

Spock's wife? What? I think we should just stick to ignoring the books altogether on this.