A serious discussion... ST/SW

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-08-12 12:11am

Frankly, I had this guy pegged as a village idiot as soon as I saw his name. Based on my experience, someone who goes on to a board such as this one under the name "Trek representative," claiming to want to be serious but using fallacious arguments that are positively ancient, is going to have trouble and in a short time. If TR is truly sincere, then he may avoid the VI tag, but the way he is heading...

My only trouble is deciding what Trekkie template this guy fits under? Why don't you guys help me out?

Style over substance templateHello, my name is Trek Representative. I just discovered your website, and while I can see that you've put a lot of work into it, I believe your conclusions are biased and wrong. You're completely one-sided on every issue, and your whole site drips of sarcasm and contempt for Star Trek and its fans. You should rewrite the site to be more fair to Star Trek.

Of course, I have no specific examples of where you've applied a different standard of evidence or method of analysis to Star Trek as opposed to Star Wars, and I have no technical input to offer, but that's irrelevant. I believe that style is more important than substance, and since your style is sarcastic and dismissive, your conclusions must therefore be wrong.

-He's got the style over substance, but not the blatant criticism of Darth Wong and VS debate research.

Blithering idiot template
Hello, my name is Trek Representative. Where do you get these ridiculous numbers about Imperial ships travelling at millions of times the speed of light? You obviously didn't watch the films. In ANH, Han Solo says that the Millenium Falcon's top speed is "point five past lightspeed", or 1.5c. So it will take years for Imperial ships to get anywhere in Federation space, and they'll be slaughtered by ships with warp drive, which will run rings around them.

Of course, I have no explanation for how Darth Maul could travel from the galactic core to its outer rim in a few hours at 1.5c, but since I don't do math, I will never figure out why that doesn't work (it's a sure bet that I don't realize that at 1.5c, it would take more than 7 hours just to travel the width of our solar system). But hey, I'm a blithering idiot Trekkie fanboy, and I don't do math or science. So I'm right, and you're wrong. In your face, Warsie!

-he's got problems with SW speeds, but remains more civil than the example in DW's template

Backhanded compliment templateHello, my name is {insert name here}. I think your site is great, and you've obviously put a lot of work into it. I admire your writing abilities and your technical knowledge, and I agree with many of your points. However, you've made at least one serious factual error: {insert a minor nitpick or an alternate interpretation of facts, rather than an actual factual error}. You should try to correct this error as soon as possible before anyone else notices it, because it reflects badly on your entire site.

Of course, I realize that it's rude to state my disagreement with your site this way, because I have stated my position in such a manner as to imply that your position is so hopelessly wrong and indefensible that there is no possibility of debate. However, I have brilliantly defused any hostile reaction by starting my post with an insincere compliment (see?), so you can't get belligerent or I'll accuse you of being rude, and my next message will be the Style over Substance template. Naturally, I can't imagine that you will see through this oh so original tactic.

-Hmmm...he was kinda leaning in this direction but I wouldn't peg him there at this time.

What do you think?

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-12 12:16am

I do appreciate such a civil approach, Ender, and I thank you for being one of the most reasonable, but as I said this will never end. It's simply two deadlocked arguments. However, if you want an impartial view (at least the most impartial I've seen from the two universes) on ST vs SW, I'd like to direct you to http://ocean.st.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html since he lists many arguments that many here will find intriguing, and perhaps even enjoy. But if you're stuck in the same few decades of back and forth banter, you'll likely disagree with the site without further thought, so don't bother. But anyone with an open mind I readily encourage.

It may surprise you all that I started off as a Warsie. But I wasn't stuck on all the technical aspects of the series (too obvious?) I just liked the idea. One of the biggest factors of being pushed to Trek was the SW fans. You're ultimately too violent. There are certainly exceptions, but confrontation seems to be all you know.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 12:17am

Trek Representative wrote:Master of Ossus, it's fine. Let them flame me as much as they want.

Okay, you're on your own.

All I was attempting to do was have an intellectual debate on a subject that has run rampant for decades. But it appears some things will never change. No generally agreeable comparison between the two can be made. Few Warsies will ever give up this novel canoninity paradox. I think the only reason you won't is because the majority of all your technical information that supports your unlikely arguments comes from SW fans who made it up in their own way and got it marked "official" by the lazy Lucas. But more prominent than all others, either side of this debate will hold a low opinion of the other. It's quite obvious where most of you stand, and from previous encounters, Trek fans feel no differently towards you.[/quote]

There is a difference between Trek FANS, and rabid Trekkies. I am a fan of many ST series. I even liked many episodes of DS9, which stretched the patience of many trekkies beyond the breaking point. I am NOT a rabid trekkie. Again, you move over to generalizations to attack.

As most of the other threads in this forum clearly show, this is a Trek bashing site. I thought I could bring some sanity to the criticism, but it appears that is near impossible. I obviously have no place among the neanderthals of the Star Wars continuum. Those of you who actually appear intelligible, get out before they posion your minds.[/quote]

This is not a Trek-bashing site. I like ST. There are many other posters here who have no problems with ST. You must recognize that there is a difference between hatred for ST and the belief that SW would be able to crush ST. My favorite TV series of all time is Babylon 5. I know that B5 technology is far weaker than technology in almost all other sci-fi series. That does not make me stop watching B5. I like B5 for what it is, and I do not care that the ISA would lose to the Empire or the Dominion, or what have you. It does not bother me. I am after the truth. When people blatantly disregard the truth, as "rabid Trekkies" do when they claim the Federation would be able to beat up on the Empire.

Incidentally, we already know that Trek Representative is self-contradictory, ignorant of science and SI units, and a person who disregarded completely suspension of disbelief, ANY definition of canon (including the one he originally started the thread with), We may now add hypocrisy to the list. He told us we could not flame, and now he has flamed a large group of posters. Your work was cut out for you, Trek Representative, and you have failed MISERABLY. Your inability to accept official AND canon information is incredibly disturbing. That is one of the most rabid-Trekkie tactics that I have ever seen. In fact, I don't think I've seen that, before. You were the first. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-12 12:19am

Trek Representative wrote:Do you not believe that a WWIII killing a tenth of Earth's current population, with an alien intervention to help us learn more about the galaxy and ourselves, along with the ability to explore what we've been gazing at for decades, wouldn't bring at least the majority of the population together? Frankly, I'd be surprised if it didn't.

A lot of Sci-Fi writers don't. I'll use an example I made during an earlier thread here about the Federation:

In the anime series Mobile Suit Gundam , which takes place in Universal Century 0079 (AD 2159), humanity is engaged in the One Year War. The Human population is more than 11 billion (on Earth and in Lagrange Point based space colonies). Within the first 2-3 weeks of the war during the One Week Battle, 4.5 billion people are killed from nukes, poison gas, and finally a colony dropped on Earth (which obliterates Sydney). After this, a treaty is drafted and the rest of the war is a stalemate until the Earth Federation defeats the Principality of Zeon at the end of the year.

Anyway, you'd think that with half of the population being killed, something like what supposibly happens in Star Trek would happen, right?

Wrong. Just three years later in 0083 there's another war. Then again in 0087-88. And 0093. Then 0123. Then 0153.

So even after nearly after 75 years, they were still having wars, and human behavior was pretty much the same (they may have discovered that life was a little more precious, but that's it.) A similar situation (actually worse, really) and nothing happens to human behavior in the UC Gundam universe.

And another thing: this "change" didn't seem to occur until TNG came around. No one in TOS was like that. Harry Mudd is the best example, as is most of the TOS crew.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-12 12:43am

Which means that the human race miraculously became morally upstanding and whatnot in 85 years. I'd forgotten about that. After a devastating WWIII, humans remain the same for 200 years, then suddenly become the moral pillar of the galaxy? Right.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-08-12 12:48am

That site Rep posted...is by DARKSTAR! LMAO!!!!!

Trek Rep, I'd withdrawl your claim about that site making sense...if you're not DS's doppleganger.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 12:48am

Continuing on this tangent, even a world war would do little to force people to work together, particularly since it appears at times as if most major governments were destroyed during the conflict. In fact, it would likely make people become even MORE selfish and greedy, at least in the short term, because they would be trying to hoarde resources and survive!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-12 12:48am

Trek Representative wrote:http://ocean.st.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html

You actually think that that site is impartial!? Are you insane or something?

All I had to do is read part of one article and the titles of the rest to tell he was biased towards ST. He actually sounds a little like DarkStar, but with more social tact.

Impartial my ass.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-08-12 12:50am

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWscary.html

Sorry, but I HAD to post that!

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-08-12 12:51am

He actually sounds a little like DarkStar, but with more social tact.

No, it IS DARKSTAR! Read the Mike Wong responce on the "falsehood" of the Death Star's firepower.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-12 12:52am

Since Titanic's last post (I started mine before he posted), I see that it is in fact DarkStar.

Hmm... It seems that when FuckFace doesn't have anyone to tell him he's wrong, he's not such an asshole.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 12:54am

Incidentally, much of what that person wrote was pretty self-contradictory, as well. Note that he claims that "warsies" repeatedly insult their opponents. While this is undoubtedly frequently the case, the first thing I read on his site insulted people by saying that 66% of people are idiots. He is clearly hypocritical. The quotes can be found here:

http://ocean.st.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html

And here:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWscary.html

LMSx · Post by **LMSx** » 2002-08-12 12:59am

If that *is* DarkStar's page, I find it interesting how he posts that only the movies, movie novelisations and radio plays are canon and makes a huge point about it in the "EU Officiality" topic, then disregards the canon SW novelisation completely on the Death Star page.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-12 12:59am

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWawards.html

Nice that he also steals two awards from EAS without giving any credit.

God damned thief.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 01:06am

Damn, that site is hilarious! I read through his discussion on the DS, and saw that he was claiming that "warsies" inflated the DS's firepower by saying that it had a firepower greater than half the starfleet. He then takes estimates from the destruction of the planet (ie. gravitational binding) and then claims that "warsies" inflated their figures by factoring in the speed of the debris? That makes absolutely zero sense. If someone took into account an additional factor while making their calculations, I would tend to believe them more. Isn't it good to look for other factors? I also like how he claims that the firepower of the DS is unreasonable because of how much energy it really is. We SAW the DS put out that much energy. Sorry that it is higher than what is seen in ST, but it is! To argue against that is to argue against facts. Then he argues the "rabid warsies" are like creationists, ignoring his own tendencies on the site. He is clearly an idiot. But my favorite part is his "objections" section. All of those rejections are utterly stupid, with the possible exception of the collapse of the planetary shield. He UTTERLY ignores more important points so he can appear to be beating up on weak arguments.

I should also point out that whether or not the Empire is evil is a question of morality and not a logical question, the way he presents it. His one example of Imperial tyrrany is Alderaan, but he fails to realize that the people of Alderaan were killed in an attempt to save more people from dying during a long, protracted Rebellion and Civil War. They were sacrificed so that a larger number of lives could be saved. Granted, it did not work out that way, and I am not saying that it was right of the Empire to do so (far from it, I think that much of the Empire is evil), but it is an interesting double-standard, considering that in "The Ship" (DS9), it was considered completely okay to sacrifice some crewmen to save more people, later.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2002-08-12 01:07am

Trek, do you know that the creator of this website is also a thief? Look at this page and find the topic named "Asteroid Collision with Imperial Star Destroyer". He claims that Darth Wong provided the pictures he used yet he offers no proof and it's highly unlikely.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 01:09am

: Plagiarism, hypocrisy on a monumental scale, self-contradiction on an unbelievable number of threads and sub-threads, lies in such quantity as I have never seen....

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-12 06:23am

Trek fans don't associate with him either. He's a total fucktard by any standard.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-08-12 12:20pm

Which means that the human race miraculously became morally upstanding and whatnot in 85 years. I'd forgotten about that. After a devastating WWIII, humans remain the same for 200 years, then suddenly become the moral pillar of the galaxy? Right.
_________________

that was great, too bad trek representive couldn't get it through his head, and contiunes to spout the same old drivel we all have heard a thousand times before.

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » 2002-08-12 06:39pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
: Plagiarism, hypocrisy on a monumental scale, self-contradiction on an unbelievable number of threads and sub-threads, lies in such quantity as I have never seen....

Don't forget an insane amout of meglomanical ego-boosting...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-12 07:58pm

This Trek Representative is terrible. Essentially, he started a thread in which only canon material could be used, and then he refused to accept even that! He believed that numerous incidents were "writer error," or similar, and he repeatedly asked me to justify the SW films! He then insisted that real life, science, official material, and common sense could not be used to explain anything, while simultaneously disregarding canon incidents! He then ignored examples that I posted, and refused to believe things that morons should have been able to understand (including telling me that his continuing thoughts were more relevent to the debate than my calculations, logic, and really common sense). He also launched several attacks on my fellow posters and even REFUSED my assistance when he baited everyone into flaming him. BTW, everyone who flamed him, I am NOT mad at you guys. I completely understand, and I agree with you that he DESERVED to be flamed--more than anyone else I have ever seen in a single thread. I was trying to play by his rules so maybe we could try to get DarkStar to shut the hell up and stop whining all the time. It's okay, though, we can beat DumbShit anytime we want, and this guy earned his flaming. As far as I can see, he even asked for it--literally!

This aptly named "Trek Representative" is fairly representative of many ultra-rabid Trekkies (DarkStar, User099 on his worst days, etc.), and representative of some ST writers in their disregard for science. He is pretty funny. I think he should be made a Village Idiot immediately.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-13 02:20pm

you know, there are times when I wonder if we should come up with a title a little less subtle than "Village Idiot" to get the point across, because it doesn't seem to be getting through to them.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-13 03:14pm

I think we should. Perhaps DarkStar should be dubbed, "Sir Talksalot" or simply moron, or DumbShit, or something similar. I don't think Trek Representative should be named anything worse than VI, though. I think that the worse title should be reserved for repeat-offenders like DarkStar. You should have to earn that title on several threads.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-13 03:38pm

Trek Representative reminds me of Timmy. Considering that Robert Scott Anderson came by under the guise of Dark Star, I wouldn't be surprised.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-08-13 08:31pm

Ender wrote:Fair enough. Here's one for you. In ST:I, the E-E fires off a quantum torpedo and misses. This is usually taken as badtargeting. However, torpedoes are homing weapons. It should have tracked and hit the ship anyways. The fact that it didn't shows that ECM was being used by the So'noa.

I just watched Wrath of Khan. The Reliant fired aft torps at the Enterprise inside the Mutara nebula (sensor blind environment) and missed. The torp just went straight past, didn't manoeuvre at all.

It does seem like a good indication that ST torpedoes would be useless against Imperial jammers. Food for thought..