The borg and Jedi

denubis · Post by **denubis** » 2002-08-02 10:44pm

As a new member, I tried a quick search (using the terms borg and jedi) -- This may be a new topic on the board.
I pose a couple questions.
1) Given that the Jedi (not sith) mentality approaches a zen like denial of emotion, and that the borg are (in general, special cases not withstanding) not capable of emotion: what kind of aptitude would the borg show with the force?
2) How exactly would the borg assimilate a Jedi. How would they assimiliate a Sith?
3) If the borg assimiliated a Jedi, what reprucussions would there be? What about a sith? (Assuming a successful assimiliation, which would be unlikely..)

I look forward to the answers.
Loyal Imerial Citizen,
-Denubis

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-08-02 11:11pm

-considers lightsabers scenes in movies one and two-

-considers borg combat scenes in first contact-

I am doubtful the borg would have a crew left in their ship.

denubis · Post by **denubis** » 2002-08-02 11:14pm

Understood. Given these difficulties, what would the borg need to do in order to Assimiliate a Jedi (The charge the lightsaber thing just doesn't work.) What would they need to develop?

Also, if they somehow assimiliated one (ignore how) what would the effect be, would n% of the borg suddenly become amazing Jedi?

How does the borg mentaility mesh with the Jedi? What would need to change, and how would it effect the now borg/jedi powers?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-08-02 11:27pm

I dont think assimilated Jedi = Borg Jedi. I mean, the Borg have presumable assimilated the following:

1 - People who know you don't send one ship to attack enemies who have destroyed such a ship in the past.

2 - People who know you don't let strangers wander around your own ship.

3 - People who know how to run.

And yet they demonstrate none of these abilities.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-02 11:29pm

When they assimlate a Jedi, the borg would gain all the knowledge that the Jedi had, including Jedi lore and Force secrets but they DO NOT gain force abiltites. Force abilities are personal to the Jedi and just can;t be passed on like knowledge and memories. Nor can the Borg suddenly become tremendous fighters because the way they are built they are utilitarian in the sense that they have all the mobility they need, they are strong and can take alot of punishment, the Borg obvioulsy see no need for speed and agility.

denubis · Post by **denubis** » 2002-08-02 11:34pm

Welll... yea... The borg are definatly "tactically challenged."
But, would the jedi who was assimiliated still have jedi like powers?

Also, if it is simply a matter of training -- would the borg consider Jedi like Force powers (or sith, but sith and borg are so opposite that I can't actually figure out how that would work..) an "advantage?"
Since the borg are (at least in my mind, feel free to prove me wrong, ) using a lamarkian strategy of evolution (passing learned traits onto decendants/others) woudl they consider Force-fu to be a good thing?

"You want to be assimilated."
"I wan't to be assil- erp."

That would be creepy.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-03 12:25am

The Borg would have a number of problems assimilating Jedi for a number of reasons.

1. Lightsabers, outrange and outpower anything in the Borg's melee arsenal, and the Borg have very rarely used longer range weapons while fighting on the ground/in a starship.

2. Nanobots are likely rendered relatively ineffective by Jedi. Jedi can alter their blood flows to prevent pathogens from entering, they can also neutralize nanobots through healing (although this takes longer to do than the assimilation process and would probably not become relevent).

Assuming that the Borg DID manage to do all of this, they would likely have the Jedi's Force powers, but they could not transfer this to other drones without Force powers. It is even POSSIBLE but not likely that the Borg-Jedi would no longer be able to use their powers because the Collective might not be able to access them. This strikes me as being somewhat far-fetched, but it is a possibility.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-03 04:27am

Now they just can't allow the Jedi to use his force powers can they? Because that'd make him an individual, something the Borg don't tollerate in their collective.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-03 10:24am

If negative consequences are to be considered, consider this:

1) Entechment rigs, a technology used by the Ssri-Ruuk, can suck life force from beings and basically implant a soul into a vehicle. If it gets it's claws in a Jedi, it can do this from the next Sector, or farther. If the Jedi-Borg was captured and rigged up, the entire Collective could be turned into living TIE Fighters.

2) Palpatine could control/influence Mara Jade, and presumably the other Hands. If the Sith captured is under Palpatine's influence, and the Sith is hooked into the massive neural network of the Collective, Palpatine now has the Collective as his puppets.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-03 10:47am

Just curious, on Palpatine's influence thing, IIRC the ROTJ novel cited the Emperor's death as one of the reasons the Imperial force lost at Endor- his influence just went away and the entire Imperial force felt it or some such and they had a tremendous loss in morale- I assume the subsequent loss of the Executor didn't help any- ref. Timothy Zahn Hier to the Empire.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-08-03 12:25pm

I'm surprised someone Trekkie troll hasn't used the lame "Borg can adapted to everything" excuse. I guess they don't want to be flamed!!!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-08-03 12:30pm

Vympel wrote:Just curious, on Palpatine's influence thing, IIRC the ROTJ novel cited the Emperor's death as one of the reasons the Imperial force lost at Endor- his influence just went away and the entire Imperial force felt it or some such and they had a tremendous loss in morale- I assume the subsequent loss of the Executor didn't help any- ref. Timothy Zahn Hier to the Empire.

That appears so. Palpatine apparantly had complete telepathic control over most of his fleets. An impressive trick, considering the clone of Jorus C'boath could only do it to one ISD.

Romulan_nemesis · Post by **Romulan_nemesis** » 2002-08-03 06:11pm

The Borg will see it as another state of perfection. They will try to assimilate the jedi masters ato attain this ability at all costs.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-03 06:20pm

Of course Jedi masters are kinda Hard to Assimlate as stated above you kinda need them unconisuis so you gotta hit em real hard over the head or stun them except both are a dicy prospect and OR Jedi travel in twos making it even harder

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-03 09:52pm

SirNitram wrote:2) Palpatine could control/influence Mara Jade, and presumably the other Hands. If the Sith captured is under Palpatine's influence, and the Sith is hooked into the massive neural network of the Collective, Palpatine now has the Collective as his puppets.

Palpatine could directly influence his hands only after training them. After assimilation, Palpatine might not be able to touch the Sith's mind. Although the whole influencing thing might be a result of his familiarizing himself with the Hand's mind pattern.

denubis · Post by **denubis** » 2002-08-05 06:20pm

Well... In terms of borg taking down Jedi -- a small tangential question is in order. How would a jedi react to a flechette weapon, or in simpler terms, a shotgun? (To be specific, a shotgun blast, becuase the best way to react to a shotgun is to have the guy wielding said shotgun shoot it into his own foot.)

The reason I bring this up: flechettes (small, sharp, razor blades, fired shotgun style) are incredibly nasty things, with a cone of effect (kinda like a flamethrower). If you made the flechettes have lilttle nanomachines in them, borg could assimliate anything by the tried and true method of spray and pray.
(This is why we use nukes to get rid of those pesky borg. ::grins:: How would the borg react to the EMP wave produced by a nuke, since nukes in space simply produce tons and tons of gamma radiation. I could be wrong though.)

A Jedi, having been assimiliated, would grant the collective its knowledge of Jedi tips and tricks (Just hit XYZZY on your lightsaber, and you'll win the battle... Sorry..). Would that include:
1) The ability to spot/find force capable drones?
2) The knowledge to make those drones do funky stuff?

In terms of the argument that Jedi power requires individuality, I'm not sure.
From what I've seen in the movies (And I'm very rusty, so please flame gently) the Jedi power requires one to banish emotions, and simply sense the force, and manipulate it logically. It would then be adventagious for the collective (Emotions, we don't have no stinking emotions!) to have a force drone on every cube. Drones can specialize in diffrent tasks (Just becuase they have diffrent eye peices, etc.. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Now, in response to the sith and the collective. That would be an entirely diffrent problem, since the Sith rely on emotion to use their force powers, and borg and emotion don't mix.

Also, in terms of assimiliation... first you assimiliate a Jedi novice, and then work up the hiararcy. Also, to prevent undue tking, mount a borg drone on tank treads (Very heavy, and very low center of gravity. Many other issues crop up at this stage, but at least you can't use the force to trip or throw them against the wall. (not counting Yoda like niftyness).

Any Ideas?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-05 06:24pm

Borg=no mediclorians
No mediclorians=no using the force (but the force can use YOU)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-05 07:23pm

Midichlorians are a measurement of one's potential in the Force. The Borg do not appear to have such midichlorians in large numbers. In fact, despite the fact that psychics exist in ST, they do not appear to have any psychics! This leads me to believe that the Collective is incapable of using psychics, for one reason or another. Even if they were able to use psychics, there would be no way that non-Force adept Borg could use Force powers even after the assimilation of a Jedi. Only the Jedi-Drone would be able to do so. Midichlorians are physical lifeforms. They cannot be transferred to other Borg just because one individual with many of them is assimilated.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-08-08 02:49pm

Personally, I think Jedi could inflict a great deal of damage upon Borg drones within a cube. The cube itself is heavily resistant to multi-megaton energy blasts, and can repair damage from such attacks quite quickly. So a Jedi causing massive damage to the ship itself seems unlikely. Plus, the Jedi would be facing some unique and dangerous obstacles: containment fields, transporters, thousands of "troops" without fear, hell, a Jedi ain't tireless you know.

The question seems to be is how long would it take the Borg to consider a Jedi a sufficent threat to deploy KE shielding on their drones?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-08 06:45pm

(Walper)
"multi-megaton energy blasts, and can repair damage from such attacks quite quickly."

Prove these "multi-megaton" blasts, please.

"The question seems to be is how long would it take the Borg to consider a Jedi a sufficent threat to deploy KE shielding on their drones?"

About as long a time as it takes for the Romulans to deploy superlasers on their ships. In other words, neither have shown any ability to do it.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2002-08-08 09:49pm

This is actually kind of funny. I'm just dealing with this vary topic in my fanfic. Luckily none of you guys has come out with what I have written so i won't be accused of ripping it off.

Though it's not quite the same since it's not a jedi master getting assimilated.
[/i]

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-08-09 05:22am

(Walper)
"multi-megaton energy blasts, and can repair damage from such attacks quite quickly."

Prove these "multi-megaton" blasts, please.

Wong's site has carefully explained how Federation torpedoes have yields within the multimegaton range. In ST:First Contact, we plainly see a Borg cube withstand dozens of direct hits upon its hull.

In ST:TNG "Q Who", we plainly see a Borg cube repair a large percentage of it's is hull after recieving several phaser hits, which Mike Wong has also calculated at about 7 megatons per second.

"The question seems to be is how long would it take the Borg to consider a Jedi a sufficent threat to deploy KE shielding on their drones?"

About as long a time as it takes for the Romulans to deploy superlasers on their ships. In other words, neither have shown any ability to do it.

The Borg have never shown the ability to reanimate a dead drone. Yet Seven of Nine aboard Voyager was able to use a technique and bring Neelix back to life using Borg technology. Obviously they can do it, especially since Seven said they could.

My arguement for their KE shielding capabilities is based upon the idea that they have it, but have no reason which outweighs efficency to deploy it.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-08-09 05:38pm

Why the argument about KE shielding when a Jedi can simply use Force grip to kill a la Vader? The Borg are extremely dependant on their implants for survival, so crushing them will kill the Borg. Unless someone has the gall to claim that Borg can adapt to the Force.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-09 05:41pm

Or the Jedi could create little vacuums around the Borg's faces. That would kill them, also.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-08-09 05:43pm

"Wong's site has carefully explained how Federation torpedoes have yields within the multimegaton range. In ST:First Contact, we plainly see a Borg cube withstand dozens of direct hits upon its hull."

Mike has been uncommonly generous to account for an upper limit. He's also been using the TM. What makes you think I want to go that way? Please prove that the yield of a PT exceeds one megaton.

"In ST:TNG "Q Who", we plainly see a Borg cube repair a large percentage of it's is hull after recieving several phaser hits, which Mike Wong has also calculated at about 7 megatons per second."

Again, he was being generous. What makes you think I want to go that way?

"The Borg have never shown the ability to reanimate a dead drone. Yet Seven of Nine aboard Voyager was able to use a technique and bring Neelix back to life using Borg technology. Obviously they can do it, especially since Seven said they could."

Seven of Nine could do it because it was a Borg technology. This is a red herring. IIRC no personal Borg forcefield has shown to be able to repel KE. You can't claim they are able to do so until, in fact, they do.

"My arguement for their KE shielding capabilities is based upon the idea that they have it, but have no reason which outweighs efficency to deploy it."

I see. The Borg have no reason for providing KE shielding that would prevent the deaths of huge numbers of them? That sounds pretty stupid.