Star Wars sensors and Warp 1 cloaked

[Enola Straight]

Suppose we had some patrol ship in the GFFA (not neccessarilly an Imperial patrol, mind you ).

Could such a patrol detect a Romulan or Klingon cloaked ship going at warp 1...generally accepted as the velocity equal to the speed of light?

I mean, there are ways of detecting sub-light velocities in real-space, and maybe ways of tracking a ship going 1.5 million c in hyper, but what about precicely c ?

[Aaron]

A Crystal Grav Trap detects the variation in gravity caused by a cloaked ship. Why wouldn't it work on a ship going c?

[Enola Straight]

I figured, no-one in the GFFA has tech producing low warp velocities, so why look for something going that slow?

Also, can't ST cloaks conceal gravitic emissions?

[Aaron]

It's stated in the episode when Troi is a Romulan that the Federation has deployed gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone. They wouldn't be a problem if the cloak shielded against those things. As well it's stated in DS9 by the Romulan officer babysitting the cloaking device that they have to keep below a certain speed to limit emissions that leak through the cloak.

[NecronLord]

A Crystal Grav Trap detects the variation in gravity caused by a cloaked ship. Why wouldn't it work on a ship going c?

Ignoring that gravity, in reality at least, is believed to propogate at C, a mundane patrol ship will not have a CGT. They're so rare the New Republic did not own one until Thrawn attacked.

[Aaron]

Ignoring that gravity, in reality at least, is believed to propogate at C, a mundane patrol ship will not have a CGT. They're so rare the New Republic did not own one until Thrawn attacked.

I see. Thanks for the correction.

[NecronLord]

It's stated in the episode when Troi is a Romulan that the Federation has deployed gravitic sensors along the Neutral Zone.

Which is not a garunteed hit.

The Federation has littered their borders with subspace listening posts and gravitic sensors. They may even have a tachyon detection grid in operation, in which case they will know we're there.

Most likely, the FTL tacyhon grid is the one that functions with least time delay, and would tell the Federation in real time that they were there. Subspace and gravitics suffer some time delay (though subspace radio speeds are... funky) and would only alert a listening post once the Khazara was already past...

[NecronLord]

I see. Thanks for the correction.

I expect there are other gravitic sensors, mind you. They are just probably not optimal for finding cloaks. The Empire made CGTs in some numbers, it seems (the one they stole, IIRC, was from a Ubiquitorate base) and a scout ship design with one was aronud by the YV war.

[Aaron]

I had a response started then realised that there's more to this than I'm aware of. All involved please accept my apologies for opening my mouth when I shouldn't have.

[Lord Revan]

though as far as we know even warp 1 is too "fast" for ST ship to target sub light targets and since 1c (or warp 1) is far too low to travel any meaningfull distances (remember that the closest star to earth is several lightyears away(seem to remember that the distance was roughly 1 parsec but I'm not sure about it)) so they'd need to speed up to travel interstellar distances, it might work as strategy for fleeing or evaquiting a planet but I dout it could be used for tactical/stategic advantace.

and that's assuming regular SW sensors just don't "punch thru" the ST cloaks , as there seems to be some sort emissions even in a fully funtion cloak (as the Nemesis cloak was specified not to have any emissions of any kinf) though those seem to be low enough that regular ST sensors won't detect them unless they were specifily trying to detect them (thus knowing there was a cloaked ship nearby).

[NecronLord]

though as far as we know even warp 1 is too "fast" for ST ship to target sub light targets and since 1c (or warp 1) is far too low to travel any meaningfull distances (remember that the closest star to earth is several lightyears away(seem to remember that the distance was roughly 1 parsec but I'm not sure about it)) so they'd need to speed up to travel interstellar distances, it might work as strategy for fleeing or evaquiting a planet but I dout it could be used for tactical/stategic advantace.

Proxima Centauri is 4.22 light years away.


And they certainly have few battle tactics that are effective, even with the best cloaks. Shinzon, supposedly clever, closed to spitting distance of the Enterprise E to attack it while cloaked, allowing them to effectively return fire. They can sneak around, and maybe unleash some random super-weapons, but cloaking devices won't stop an invading force just smashing their supply lines and letting them burn up their fuel.

[Peptuck]

IIRC, while they have CGTs, they're rare mostly because their primary use is at major ports to detect smugglers. They're useful for catching cloaked ships, but the two-way nature of the cloak in Star Wars means that cloaks aren't common. They're not used very often because there isn't much of a use for them except as specialized gear.

Doesn't Mike theorize that the Empire would begin making more extensive useof CGTs if they knew they were up against an enemy who uses effective cloaking technology?

[NecronLord]

The Republic's lack of one for Coruscant doesn't make much in-universe sense if a CGT is not also prohibatively expensive. One surviving TIE Phantom on Coruscant with a bunch of Seismic Charges clamped to it could easily slaughter a large slice of the Republic's leaders. Reputedly, Obi-Wan recalls riding on a civilian freighter equipped with a cloak in one of the Jedi Apprentice books, though I don't have references for that.

What's more, the older, smaller and more common, 'magic crystal' cloaking devices are not, double blind, either.

[Knife]

Meh, at the time of TUDC, the Enterprise could detect the neutrino surge when the clocked BoP attacked the D7 and later their PT's tracked the emissions of the thing while clocked.

So at least by that point a 'standard' sensor package should be able to pick them up if they're looking for them. As of TNG, Picard used his little net tactic, implying that if you pump enough active scanning into the area you can pick them up too.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Republic's lack of one for Coruscant doesn't make much in-universe sense if a CGT is not also prohibatively expensive. One surviving TIE Phantom on Coruscant with a bunch of Seismic Charges clamped to it could easily slaughter a large slice of the Republic's leaders. Reputedly, Obi-Wan recalls riding on a civilian freighter equipped with a cloak in one of the Jedi Apprentice books, though I don't have references for that.

What's more, the older, smaller and more common, 'magic crystal' cloaking devices are not, double blind, either.

actually CGT arrays are fairly common - they're mentioned (IIRC) in the Far Orbit PRoject (Nebulon-B's have them as standarD) and the SWSB mentions them as a fairly standard gravitic sensor.

Moreover, there's also the numerous references to ships and fighters detecting ships by gravity (from the Vongwank in the NJO to things like tractor beams and gravity well projectors in the pre-NJO EU.) which also cannot be ignored (either they're CGTs or they're a different "kind" of gravity sensor, if such is possible.)

What is perhaps the best case is that the dedicated CGT platforms mentioned are much bigger/more refined versions (perhaps even dedicated platforms) compared ot what most starships and such will possess, ,and that its only the platforms that can actually detect a cloaked ship at any worthwhile range (standard CGTs are stated to have ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers, while the CGT platforms can detect cloaked ships a mere "thousands" of kilometers away, as per the EGW&T).

Standard CGT arrays on a ship could possibly pick up a cloaked vessel, but the difference in quality probably means that it can only do so at ranges that make them useless unless you're practically on top of the cloaked ship.

Of course, things like thermodynamics (Heat dissipation) as well as engine exhaust (things that claoking cannot stop or indefinitely block) are limiting factors on cloaking anyways, especially at FTL.)

[NecronLord]

actually CGT arrays are fairly common - they're mentioned (IIRC) in the Far Orbit PRoject (Nebulon-B's have them as standarD) and the SWSB mentions them as a fairly standard gravitic sensor.

If Neb-Bs have them as standard, why couldn't the New Republic, which had a great big hard on for the things, get one of its own?

Moreover, there's also the numerous references to ships and fighters detecting ships by gravity (from the Vongwank in the NJO to things like tractor beams and gravity well projectors in the pre-NJO EU.) which also cannot be ignored (either they're CGTs or they're a different "kind" of gravity sensor, if such is possible.)

Like I said, there's probably some other gravity sensor - indeed, I'd have a hard time believing anyone capable of such routine application of 'anti-gravity' principles as training remotes wouldn't be able to detect gravitational fields

What is perhaps the best case is that the dedicated CGT platforms mentioned are much bigger/more refined versions (perhaps even dedicated platforms) compared ot what most starships and such will possess, ,and that its only the platforms that can actually detect a cloaked ship at any worthwhile range (standard CGTs are stated to have ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers, while the CGT platforms can detect cloaked ships a mere "thousands" of kilometers away, as per the EGW&T).

Humm. That might work.

Standard CGT arrays on a ship could possibly pick up a cloaked vessel, but the difference in quality probably means that it can only do so at ranges that make them useless unless you're practically on top of the cloaked ship.

At Star Trek ranges, you could probably reliably detect a cloaked ship by throwing talcum powder out of your windows *Sighs at the Nemesis battle. Again.

Of course, things like thermodynamics (Heat dissipation) as well as engine exhaust (things that claoking cannot stop or indefinitely block) are limiting factors on cloaking anyways, especially at FTL.)

I don't know if they produce real exhaust at warp, so much as some kind of subspace trail.

Of course, without resorting to superweapons, or commando wank (Even the Romulans haven't shown any such capacity) there's not much even a cloaked flotilla can do against important targets in SW, even assuming it remains undetected.

[Lord Poe]

Also, can't ST cloaks conceal gravitic emissions?

What are "gravitic emissions"?

[Surlethe]

Also, can't ST cloaks conceal gravitic emissions?

What are "gravitic emissions"?

I assume he means "gravity". And the answer is "no", unless it somehow makes the ship massless -- gravity doesn't behave anything like EM emissions. This is more like asking if it's possible to suppress electric or magnetic fields.

[Terralthra]

Also, can't ST cloaks conceal gravitic emissions?

What are "gravitic emissions"?

I assume he means "gravity". And the answer is "no", unless it somehow makes the ship massless -- gravity doesn't behave anything like EM emissions. This is more like asking if it's possible to suppress electric or magnetic fields.

This ignores the obvious point that almost all ST universe ships have artificial gravity. They either carry around a lot of extra mass beneath the ship's subjective up, or they've somehow developed the ability to manipulate gravitation.

However, there is mention in "Face of the Enemy" of a gravitational sensor array along the Neutral Zone to detect cloaked ships, so presumably, cloaking devices do not make use of this same manipulation to mask gravity.

[Xon]

I assume he means "gravity". And the answer is "no", unless it somehow makes the ship massless -- gravity doesn't behave anything like EM emissions. This is more like asking if it's possible to suppress electric or magnetic fields.

At one stage Voyager flowed anti-gravitons along the outer hull to repell a docking claim.

[harbringer]

The fact that gravitational sensors are used shows either a) star trek ships have limited gravity control or b) their manipulation results in some signature.

Either way the sensors in the neutral zone were considered enough to "see" any ship crossing - which wouldnt make sense if a ship could sneak across simply by not being cloaked. Not to mention that the romulans would be aware of such a limitation.

[BountyHunterSAx]

I don't know much about relativity, but as an object approaches 'c', I know that time dilation, length dilation, and one other dilation occur. Is it possible that the mass of a ship going near-c in real life would be reduced, effectively masking its gravitational signal?

Like I said earlier, I don't know enough to push this argument, but I figured I'd bring it up so that someone can poke a hole in it for me.

-AHMAD

[Ghost Rider]

Given he's trying to use the warp 1 velocity to justify C, there's your problem to start. Warp does not obey many of the real notions of physics to begin with.

[harbringer]

As I understand it warp literally warps space around the ship so its actual velocity could be well below the speed of light. Im not sure how much sub space trikery is used but the vessal remains in real space for the journey and so the gravity should be visible.

[Lord Revan]

I don't know much about relativity, but as an object approaches 'c', I know that time dilation, length dilation, and one other dilation occur. Is it possible that the mass of a ship going near-c in real life would be reduced, effectively masking its gravitational signal?

Like I said earlier, I don't know enough to push this argument, but I figured I'd bring it up so that someone can poke a hole in it for me.

-AHMAD

actually the exact opposite happens and the mass will start to grow (becoming infinite at "c") hence it's impossible to get to "c" without tricks like warp or hyperdrive.

you'd need infinite energy to get to the speed of light with a object with mass, that said though Warp Drive doesn't obey normal laws of physics.