Pat Tillman Update: Multiple head shots.

[metavac]

The corpse of a murder victim is an element of a criminal act, dipshit.

One, a corpse in and of itself does not imply criminal actus reus. Two, a determination of homicide does not carry the presumption of mens rea. Therefore, the mere corpse of a homicide victim (I'm sure you didn't mean to say "murder") is not an element of a criminal act. Do the math, jackass.

They are able to determine whether a homicide is an accident or intentional murder based on... Wait for it... The autopsy!

Really? Name one ME that makes a determination whether or not a homicide is intentional or accidental.

You know, where they gather physical evidence from inside the body and determine entrance wounds, exit wounds, and the angle of those wounds?

Which they then report to CSIs to make a determine a scenario which fits the facts. Pathologists are not ballisticians, and you've yet to show me one practicing ME who is.

Of course they have experience with ballistics, you dumb git. They routinely pull bullets out of corpses and make determinations about the angle upon which those projectiles entered the body.

Or is this too complex for you?

Apparently the entire concept of forensics ballistics is too complex for you. Exactly what gave you the idea that removing bullets and simply reporting entry angles amounts to a ballistics analysis? What's next? A phlebotomist is DNA examiner because he draws blood and codes it?

Awwwe, the dumb baby can use big words, how cute! You implied that army physicians are unqualified to make any determination on whether something should be investigated as a murder.

They aren't, moron. It's not their fucking job. MEs make

It goes beyond just "determining whether or not a death is a homicide".

Really? Proof?

This coming from the Village Idiot. Keep trying, cunt.

So you admit that it's the crime scene investigators, not the MEs, who have the responsibility of gathering evidence of actus reus and mens rea. Thank you. Ya'done.

[metavac]

If an army examiner has a partial role, then you concede that the opinion of an army examiner can be worthwhile retard.

Equivocation is too new of a trick for you to use effectively, so give it up dumbass.

[brianeyci]

If an army examiner has a partial role, then you concede that the opinion of an army examiner can be worthwhile retard.

Equivocation is too new of a trick for you to use effectively, so give it up dumbass.

This from the dumbass who doesn't understand what a tautology is. You take that propositional logic course yet, or still dicking around on wikipedia or google looking up names of shit you don't understand? When are you going to give up throwing around words you don't understand the meaning of? You know there is a rule against throwing around names of logical fallacies without showing how the claim is actually a fallacy.

I see you ignore my rebuttal to your "job" claim: how I point out that the authority to declare an investigation's official results is not the same as expertise in a field, squarely putting the burden of proof on you to show that physicians are not qualified to make worthwhile remarks on a murder investigation since that was your claim. But please, continue to show the mob how stupid you are. Don't you notice that nobody ever comes to your defense in any debate? You are one thick-headed moron.

[metavac]

I see you ignore my rebuttal to your "job" claim...

I never ignore your arguments, jackass. The equivocation charge covers it all.

[Flagg]

The corpse of a murder victim is an element of a criminal act, dipshit.

One, a corpse in and of itself does not imply criminal actus reus. Two, a determination of homicide does not carry the presumption of mens rea. Therefore, the mere corpse of a homicide victim (I'm sure you didn't mean to say "murder") is not an element of a criminal act. Do the math, jackass.

It is if the ME finds the cause of death was intentional hoicide, fucktard.

They are able to determine whether a homicide is an accident or intentional murder based on... Wait for it... The autopsy!

Really? Name one ME that makes a determination whether or not a homicide is intentional or accidental.

Any ME that has ever investigated multiple stabbings, you fucking wanker.

You know, where they gather physical evidence from inside the body and determine entrance wounds, exit wounds, and the angle of those wounds?

Which they then report to CSIs to make a determine a scenario which fits the facts. Pathologists are not ballisticians, and you've yet to show me one practicing ME who is.

Never made the claim, moron. I simply said they used knowledge of ballistics to determine projectile angles on autopsy. Now, kindly provide evidence that ME's report to CSI technicians, rather than homocide detectives.

Of course they have experience with ballistics, you dumb git. They routinely pull bullets out of corpses and make determinations about the angle upon which those projectiles entered the body.

Or is this too complex for you?

Apparently the entire concept of forensics ballistics is too complex for you. Exactly what gave you the idea that removing bullets and simply reporting entry angles amounts to a ballistics analysis? What's next? A phlebotomist is DNA examiner because he draws blood and codes it?

I never made the claim, retard. I said they have ballistics knowledge. Or is that too complex for you?

Awwwe, the dumb baby can use big words, how cute! You implied that army physicians are unqualified to make any determination on whether something should be investigated as a murder.

They aren't, moron. It's not their fucking job. MEs make

It goes beyond just "determining whether or not a death is a homicide".

Really? Proof?

Already provided.

This coming from the Village Idiot. Keep trying, cunt.

So you admit that it's the crime scene investigators, not the MEs, who have the responsibility of gathering evidence of actus reus and mens rea. Thank you. Ya'done.

Wow, Latin. I'm about as impressed as your mother was when you fell out of her ass. I never claimed CSI technicians don't gather evidence, I simply stated that ME's perform the same function in concern to the body. Thank you, come again.

[metavac]

It is if the ME finds the cause of death was intentional hoicide, fucktard.

And when does an ME ever make a determination of "intentional homicide?"

Any ME that has ever investigated multiple stabbings, you fucking wanker.

Name one. And provide proof.

Never made the claim, moron. I simply said they used knowledge of ballistics to determine projectile angles on autopsy

Now you're equivocating on ballistics, idiot. You're stretching the term from forensics ballistics to possessing any knowledge of mechanics, no matter how rudimentary.

Now, kindly provide evidence that ME's report to CSI technicians, rather than homocide detectives.

I never said they report to technicians, moron.

Already provided.

Where?

I simply stated that ME's perform the same function in concern to the body. Thank you, come again.

Name me one ME that does so. Just one.

[SAMAS]

OK, first off, something fishy is going on because of all the suspicious wierdness going on around this. It's worth an investigation, for sure. But it leaves a lot of questions unanswered-- the biggest is, "why"?

My least cynical side sees two simultaneous reasons:

A: To cover up the embarrassment of having a guy like Tillman die like that.

B: So they could manufacture a "Fallen Hero" story to draw attention from the whole Abu Ghraib(sp) thing.

[General Zod]

It is if the ME finds the cause of death was intentional hoicide, fucktard.

The coroner/medical investigator may be able to provide a cause of death, but since they've been denied the authority to name suspects they can't do squat for intent. At best they can do things like suggest it was lawful death, suicide, homicide, an open verdict, etc. You can't really prove intent based on those alone without suspect interviews, which is where the actual CSI and prosecutor comes in.

[General Zod]

It is if the ME finds the cause of death was intentional hoicide, fucktard.

The coroner/medical investigator may be able to provide a cause of death, but since they've been denied the authority to name suspects they can't do squat for intent. At best they can do things like suggest it was lawful death, suicide, homicide, an open verdict, etc. You can't really prove intent based on those alone without suspect interviews, which is where the actual CSI and prosecutor comes in.

Ghetto edit: Then again it does seem that in some states the Coroner has the power to issue warrants and act as a sherriff. Retarded, but it seems that they can determine intent in some cities where there's not enough people to fill important roles. So, depends on the state it looks like.

[metavac]

Ghetto edit: Then again it does seem that in some states the Coroner has the power to issue warrants and act as a sherriff. Retarded, but it seems that they can determine intent in some cities where there's not enough people to fill important roles. So, depends on the state it looks like.

For the purposes of determining the cause of death. I don't know of any jurisdiction where coroners aren't so empowered.

[General Zod]

Ghetto edit: Then again it does seem that in some states the Coroner has the power to issue warrants and act as a sherriff. Retarded, but it seems that they can determine intent in some cities where there's not enough people to fill important roles. So, depends on the state it looks like.

For the purposes of determining the cause of death. I don't know of any jurisdiction where coroners aren't so empowered.

Georgia seems to be one of them. I'm guessing it's states where there's a relatively small population compared to places with large metropolitan areas like California or New York.

[metavac]

Georgia seems to be one of them. I'm guessing it's states where there's a relatively small population compared to places with large metropolitan areas like California or New York.

Nah, I mean I can't think of a jurisdiction where MEs or coroners can't issue warrants to enforce inquest summons. NYC chief examiners certainly can and do.

[The Dark]

Really? Name one ME that makes a determination whether or not a homicide is intentional or accidental.

Any ME that has ever investigated multiple stabbings, you fucking wanker.

Name one. And provide proof.

I can't name them personally, but Miami-Dade county classifies deaths as either "homicide," "suicide," or "accidental" (which includes caused but unintentional deaths) per Pediatrics Vol. 111 No. 4.

Harris County, Texas also differentiates between deaths caused by accident and those caused by "a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death."

A reverse example occurred in Travis County, Texas, where a medical examiner ruled deaths were accidental because of a combination of blunt force trauma and drug interactions meant that, in his opinion, there was not intent to cause harm.

The last article notes that not every medical examiner has that latitude in making their decisions, but it does exist.

[metavac]

I can't name them personally, but Miami-Dade county classifies deaths as either "homicide," "suicide," or "accidental" (which includes caused but unintentional deaths) per Pediatrics Vol. 111 No. 4.

Schaeter et. al. also explicitly note that they are comparing the ME categories ("homicide, suicide or accident") with "intent-based" classifications.

Harris County, Texas also differentiates between deaths caused by accident and those caused by "a volitional act committed by another person to cause fear, harm, or death."

Harris County ME also notes that "ntent to cause death is a common element but is not required for classification as homicide." (this distinguishes criminally negligent homicide from say murder). It further goes on to point out that the homicide classification is applied regardless of whether or not the act or intent is criminal . A death resulting from lethal force in self-defense or under the color of law is still classified as a homicide-- there are no elements of a crime, that is actus reus and mens rea.

A reverse example occurred in Travis County, Texas, where a medical examiner ruled deaths were accidental because of a combination of blunt force trauma and drug interactions meant that, in his opinion, there was not intent to cause harm. The last article notes that not every medical examiner has that latitude in making their decisions, but it does exist.

Sad to say, there is no bright line between accident and homicide. However, that's entirely unrelated to the question of whether or not MEs decide whether there was an intent to kill. The homicide classification admits no such granularity, precisely because it is not their job to establish the elements of a crime.

[Coyote]

I believe in some cases in the USA, it's not that the Coroner has Sheriff authority; it's that the Sheriff has Coroner authority. In small rural towns, it makes sense-- after all, who is likely the first person on the scene (after the caller) that can issue a definitive statement of death and whether that death deserves follow-up.

[metavac]

I believe in some cases in the USA, it's not that the Coroner has Sheriff authority; it's that the Sheriff has Coroner authority. In small rural towns, it makes sense-- after all, who is likely the first person on the scene (after the caller) that can issue a definitive statement of death and whether that death deserves follow-up.

Also, it seems that medical examiner is a title specifically reserved for forensics pathologists. Coroners apparently don't need to be.

[Azazal]

getting back tom OP, I find this intersting, from CNN/SI

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- As bullets flew above their heads, the young soldier at Pat Tillman's side started praying.

"I thought I was praying to myself, but I guess he heard me," Sgt. Bryan O'Neal recalled in an interview Saturday with The Associated Press. "He said something like, 'Hey, O'Neal, why are you praying? God can't help us now."'

Tillman's intent, O'Neal said, was to "more or less put my mind straight about what was going on at the moment."

"He said, 'I've got an idea to help get us out of this,"' said O'Neal, who was an 18-year-old Army Ranger in Tillman's unit when the former NFL player was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan in April 2004.

O'Neal said Tillman, a corporal, threw a smoke grenade to identify themselves to fellow soldiers who were firing at them. Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat [expletive] Tillman, damn it!" again and again when he was killed, O'Neal said.

A chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman's death later described this exchange to investigators conducting a criminal probe of the incident. But O'Neal strongly disputes portions of the chaplain's testimony, outlined in some 2,300 pages of transcripts released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

The chaplain told investigators that O'Neal said Tillman was harsh in his last moments, snapping, 'Would you shut your [expletive] mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,"' O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."

The chaplain's name is blacked out in the documents.

Don;t think the chaplain was tring to posin the well when it comes to Tillma do you?

[FSTargetDrone]

The chaplain told investigators that O'Neal said Tillman was harsh in his last moments, snapping, 'Would you shut your [expletive] mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,"' O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."

The chaplain's name is blacked out in the documents.

It's odd. Has anyone in the US ever even heard a fellow American use the word "sniveling," in everyday language, let alone from a 27 year-old soldier under stress? I call bullshit with what the chaplain claimed Tillman said.

[Coyote]

"Snivelling" is actually a very common word in the US Army, and has been for the 20+ years I've been in. If you are whining, bitching or moaning about anything, you are told to "quit snivelling", especially in Basic Training.

Cold weather gear-- boots, hats, coats, liners, longjohns, gloves-- are all collectively called "snivel gear".

[metavac]

Well, if the chaplain's account is true then shouldn't Tillman's last words be something of an atheist mantra? If true, it's pretty dramatic evidence that there are atheists in foxholes.

[FSTargetDrone]

"Snivelling" is actually a very common word in the US Army, and has been for the 20+ years I've been in. If you are whining, bitching or moaning about anything, you are told to "quit snivelling", especially in Basic Training.

Cold weather gear-- boots, hats, coats, liners, longjohns, gloves-- are all collectively called "snivel gear".

Really? Well I stand corrected!

I still think that the "quote" provided by this chaplain seems a bit over the top, but who knows. There's clearly a contradiction between what he says was said and what the target of Tillman's rebuke says. Would the chaplain even be anywhere near these guys when this happened? We have a first-hand account from the sergeant and what kind of first-, second- or third-hand say-so from this chaplain?

[FSTargetDrone]

Well, if the chaplain's account is true then shouldn't Tillman's last words be something of an atheist mantra? If true, it's pretty dramatic evidence that there are atheists in foxholes.

Indeed there are.

[2000AD]

Well, if the chaplain's account is true then shouldn't Tillman's last words be something of an atheist mantra? If true, it's pretty dramatic evidence that there are atheists in foxholes.

Going by what Wikipedia says about him Tillmanwas an atheist.

[Dark Flame]

This thread was buried, but I figured that this constitutes news.


CNN's story
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A retired three-star general criticized for misleading investigators probing the controversial death of Cpl. Pat Tillman could be stripped of a star and face a decrease in retirement pension, Pentagon officials told CNN.


Retired Lt. Gen. Phillip Kensinger's three-star rank could be cut to two stars, according to Army officials.

Retired Lt. Gen. Phillip Kensinger misled investigators when he said he did not know until after Tillman's 2004 memorial service that Tillman's death in Afghanistan was likely the result of "friendly fire," said acting Defense Department Inspector General Thomas Gimble.

"We didn't find that credible. We found evidence that he knew in the April time frame," Gimble said.

Three Pentagon officials have told CNN that Army Secretary Pete Geren may recommend reducing Kensinger's rank to major general.

The reduction in rank would decrease Kensinger's monthly pension by about $1,000 and reduce his current three-star rank to two stars, according to Army officials.

The Pentagon officials, who spoke anonymously to CNN because no final decision has been made, said Geren has consulted Army attorneys about the best way to take the punitive action against Kensinger. Watch more about Gen. Kensinger's role in the Tillman probe »

Should that disciplinary action come to fruition, the sources said it would prove more severe than the separate recommendation of a four-star general who is about to mete out punishment in the case.

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The developments come amid calls by the House Oversight Committee on four former White House staff members to talk about when and how the Bush administration knew that Tillman, a former pro football player, was killed by friendly fire.

Last March the acting Pentagon inspector general faulted nine Army officers -- including Kensinger -- for making critical errors in reporting the death of Tillman, who was killed while serving in Afghanistan in 2004.

Next Tuesday, Gen. William Wallace, commander of the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine command, is expected to hand down his decision on punishments.

CNN has learned that all of the officers will receive some kind of reprimand, but none will face criminal charges.


But in addition to a formal reprimand, Kensinger may also get a "Letter of Censure" from Geren, a harsher rebuke that could likely lead to the reduction in rank.

Such a punitive action would have to be approved by Defense Secretary Robert Gates, army officials say. E-mail to a friend