Pat Tillman Update: Multiple head shots.

[SirNitram]

Link

SAN FRANCISCO -

Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

Associated Press reporters Scott Lindlaw in Las Vegas and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this story.

Three bullets in the head, from close range. Couple that with the Army trying to keep a criminal investigation away, and it stinks of coverup.

[Sea Skimmer]

If you fired a three round burst from an M16 at even 10 yards, no way would all three rounds go through the head. You’d basically have to put the barrel on the head and then fire to get that result; otherwise the barrel rise between bullets would make such tight grouping impossible. If that’s what killed him then a deliberate murder becomes a real possibility.

IIRC thought, when friendly fire was first admitted, they said he was killed by a machine gun mounted on a vehicle, which is still damn unlikely to put multiple rounds through a head, but it’s at least physically possible without point blank range.

[General Zod]

If you fired a three round burst from an M16 at even 10 yards, no way would all three rounds go through the head. You’d basically have to put the barrel on the head and then fire to get that result; otherwise the barrel rise between bullets would make such tight grouping impossible. If that’s what killed him then a deliberate murder becomes a real possibility.

IIRC thought, when friendly fire was first admitted, they said he was killed by a machine gun mounted on a vehicle, which is still damn unlikely to put multiple rounds through a head, but it’s at least physically possible without point blank range.

Wouldn't the ballistics report have been enough to conclude whether the wounds were from point blank or long range on its own? You'd think gunshot wounds from a distance would leave significantly different signs than ones from up close.

[Dark Hellion]

But Pat Tillman clearly just tripped while carrying a nearly empty mag in his hand. Upon hitting the ground, the rounds discharged and killed him. See, totally believable, no cover-up here, no sir, none at all. Carry on.

[Dark Flame]

If you fired a three round burst from an M16 at even 10 yards, no way would all three rounds go through the head. You’d basically have to put the barrel on the head and then fire to get that result; otherwise the barrel rise between bullets would make such tight grouping impossible. If that’s what killed him then a deliberate murder becomes a real possibility.

IIRC thought, when friendly fire was first admitted, they said he was killed by a machine gun mounted on a vehicle, which is still damn unlikely to put multiple rounds through a head, but it’s at least physically possible without point blank range.

I thought that the point of the 3 round burst was that the first 3 bullets fired before barrel rise becomes an issue. 10 yards, with a rifle, sounds to me like it could put 3 rounds in someone's head, especially if that rifle is fired by someone with the training of an Army Ranger.

[General Zod]

I thought that the point of the 3 round burst was that the first 3 bullets fired before barrel rise becomes an issue. 10 yards, with a rifle, sounds to me like it could put 3 rounds in someone's head, especially if that rifle is fired by someone with the training of an Army Ranger.

You get recoil each time you fire a round. The burst simply means you have to pull the trigger less.

[Sea Skimmer]

Wouldn't the ballistics report have been enough to conclude whether the wounds were from point blank or long range on its own? You'd think gunshot wounds from a distance would leave significantly different signs than ones from up close.

A very close range gunshot wound, up to a couple yards, will leave powder burns. Anything from further away will not. If he was shot with a gun to his head then the medical examiner should have seen signs of that, and put it in the report, assuming anything was left of the guys head at all. However that report might have been incomplete or censored or who knows what.

[General Zod]

Wouldn't the ballistics report have been enough to conclude whether the wounds were from point blank or long range on its own? You'd think gunshot wounds from a distance would leave significantly different signs than ones from up close.

A very close range gunshot wound, up to a couple yards, will leave powder burns. Anything from further away will not. If he was shot with a gun to his head then the medical examiner should have seen signs of that, and put it in the report, assuming anything was left of the guys head at all. However that report might have been incomplete or censored or who knows what.

I was thinking more in the lines of damaged caused and the angle of entry than powder burns necessarily.

[Stravo]

It's abominable to me that years later we still don't have a fucking clue what happened to Pat Tillman. Friendly fire? Deliberate murder? Accidental discharge? Go ahead and pick whichever one you like because there's no right answer. I feel for his family that they had to fight this hard to find out what happened to their son. Makes you wonder though, due to his celebrity he's getting this kind of feedback against his coverup. How many anonymous poor bastards got reamed by the Army this way and no one has a clue.

If anyone saw the Nightline special report last week about the Army certifying a slew of combat vets as mentally disabled PRIOR to the war thus making them ineligible for Veteran benefits you know what I'm talking about. It wasn't until John Mayer in one of his concerts took up the cause of this growing number of vets that the Army began to move on this.

The treatment of the soldiers both now and those who have served in this thankless crusade is a black stain that will unfortunately only come fully to light after this clown car of an administration leaves the White House.

[FSTargetDrone]

Wouldn't the ballistics report have been enough to conclude whether the wounds were from point blank or long range on its own? You'd think gunshot wounds from a distance would leave significantly different signs than ones from up close.

A very close range gunshot wound, up to a couple yards, will leave powder burns. Anything from further away will not. If he was shot with a gun to his head then the medical examiner should have seen signs of that, and put it in the report, assuming anything was left of the guys head at all. However that report might have been incomplete or censored or who knows what.

I've been wondering about something since reading this story last night. The story states that there were "three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead." Tillman would have far more likely than not been wearing a helmet, yes? Assuming he was wearing a helmet, wouldn't some of this gunfire show up on the helmet, if nothing else as a giant hole or holes in this helmet? Every helmet I've ever seen in pictures covers the forehead, practically coming down to the level of the wearer's eyebrows, so unless he happened to be in the process of tipping back his helmet for some reason just as he was shot, wouldn't the helmet be useful in any examination?

However, weren't there stories that all of Tillman's gear was destroyed?

[the wicked prince]

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

Only takes 1 bad apple..

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

BA

[General Zod]

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

BA

BA? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bad ASSSsssss!

[chitoryu12]

Sure as hell looks like his own guys shot him. For one, his last words were insulting a "panicky" comrade. If someone is panicking, then they won't be thinking clearly and, in anger, he may have fired. Then there's the Army trying to block an investigation, and it sure smells like a cover for murder.

[metavac]

It's abominable to me that years later we still don't have a fucking clue what happened to Pat Tillman.

Sure we do. In fact, there's a IG big ass report (BIG PDF) that came out last year. It even mentions the "3 forehead woulds within an approximate 2-inch diameter." It even criticizes the third AR 15-6 investigation for failing to interview snipers attached to Serial 2 regarding the suspicious wounds. In fact, it seems the only thing AP did to obtain these documents was to go to Defenselink.

What's new are these Army physicians moonlighting as a CSIs drawing their own conclusions about how the shooting went down. You should note that Bryan O'Neal, who came under fire with Tillman that day, hotly disputes this speculation.

[Sea Skimmer]

So he was in fact shot from a vehicle, multiple mounted machine guns were involved, and three other casualties resulted. Yeah, that’s everything I need to know, it was just another screw-up. Assuming malice based purely on shot placement with this additional information is quite absurd.

[Elfdart]

At least soldiers in Vietnam waited until they were losing the war before the fraggings began.


This makes me sick just thinking about it. I wonder how many war whores want to have these fucktards sent to Guantanamo. Unlike most of the inmates down there, these scumbags actually did kill Americans, so if they don't belong down there, nobody else does either.

[Elfdart]

that came out last year. It even mentions the "3 forehead woulds within an approximate 2-inch diameter." It even criticizes the third AR 15-6 investigation for failing to interview snipers attached to Serial 2 regarding the suspicious wounds. In fact, it seems the only thing AP did to obtain these documents was to go to Defenselink.

The medical examiners' suspicions were contained in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

You are such a lying little asshole, you know that?

[metavac]

You are such a lying little asshole, you know that?

I already pointed out that the only thing new the AP uncovered are "Army physicians moonlighting as a CSIs drawing their own conclusions about how the shooting went down." Take your cut and paste games to testing, kid.

[the wicked prince]

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

BA

BA? What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Hi,

STFU.

[Howedar]

You might choose to read the rules of the forum, particularly the first rule in the "Posting Rules" section. If we don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're not communicating very well.

[brianeyci]

So metavac pulling his post a link and expect people to read a huge PDF instead of quoting it bullshit again. How unsurprising. How to argue like a metavac: find tons of links, and never really say anything concrete about them and especially make sure you paraphrase them. Make sure not to quote them directly either, and take sentence fragments from the sources instead of providing the entire context. When people accuse you of not being clear, you're entirely safe because with the metavac debating strategy, you never really say anything and thus your opponents are always wrong. Make sure to give links to huge articles instead of quoting them either, so that later on when people skim them so as not to waste time, you can accuse them of not thoroughly reading your gargantuan PDF/link/whatever by pointing out one factoid unlinked to your original claim in the source because of course, the burden is on the other party to memorize every word of that source.

Elfdart's rebuttal is to the claim that AP just went to already existant information (Defenselink) to find the Army physicians' opinions, which is clearly wrong since the AP categorically states they got the information through FOIA request for testimony, not through any existing free documentation. But how to argue like a metavac: make sure you insult people for using "cut and paste" because of course as a metavac quoting sources is "cut and pasting" and not required in a debate.

[metavac]

So metavac pulling his post a link and expect people to read a huge PDF instead of quoting it bullshit again.

I did quote it, jackass.

It even mentions the "3 forehead woulds within an approximate 2-inch diameter."

Next?

Elfdart's rebuttal is to the claim that AP just went to already existant information (Defenselink) to find the Army physicians' opinions

A strawman, since I pointed out that the testimony is precisely "[w]hat's new" in the report. You may now rejoin Nitram in the peanut gallery.

[Knife]

I thought that the point of the 3 round burst was that the first 3 bullets fired before barrel rise becomes an issue. 10 yards, with a rifle, sounds to me like it could put 3 rounds in someone's head, especially if that rifle is fired by someone with the training of an Army Ranger.

You get recoil each time you fire a round. The burst simply means you have to pull the trigger less.

Meh, the first two rounds should be pretty close if they were a well aimed shot. However, statistically, the third shot starts to drift. Nothing more sinister than just the time it takes to shoot three rounds and the three bouts of recoil on the shooter.

[brianeyci]

So metavac pulling his post a link and expect people to read a huge PDF instead of quoting it bullshit again.

I did quote it, jackass.

It even mentions the "3 forehead woulds within an approximate 2-inch diameter."

Next?

You missed the entire context of it and took a sentence fragment. That is not a quote, that is a small dismembered piece of shit from a huge source. At the very least you could have quoted a paragraph. Context and whole sentences do matter, contrary to meta-debator's fantasy world.

Elfdart's rebuttal is to the claim that AP just went to already existant information (Defenselink) to find the Army physicians' opinions

A strawman, since I pointed out that the testimony is precisely "[w]hat's new" in the report. You may now rejoin Nitram in the peanut gallery.

Again with the sentence fragments. What's your problem with quoting whole sentences dumbass? Maybe even a whole paragraph, that would be a start. You said the following,

In fact, it seems the only thing AP did to obtain these documents was to go to Defenselink.

Which is an obvious lie as Elfdart pointed out. How to argue like a metavac: never admit you're wrong, even when you're caught red handed.