It’s Official: The Crash Of The U.S. Economy Has Begun

[Admiral Valdemar]

Given what TV shows today? You could probably transmit static and still get ratings and investors throwing cash at you.

[NeoGoomba]

Good point. Besides, we're all going to need TV to tell us we're fine and that the bubble can't burst when we're huddled around the burning barrel for warmth looking through store windows.

[Admiral Valdemar]

People will need some solace.

Think of it this way. Nothing here is beyond our technical abilities to figure out and maintain some semblance or normality. Look at New Orleans. Notice how it's till very much a city that looks like it got hit by a hurricane over 18 months back and nothing happened afterwards? What happened? New Orleans could have been rebuilt by now, good as new, if we applied ourselves. That the world's only superpower hasn't done this yet, despite having the technology, money and manpower, is quite an illustrative point.

Technology is not the issue. Never was. The people that look on this and say "I see no problem. We just build nuke reactors, get people to cut back and invest money into renewables while switching to an EV as they move into the cities from suburbia" are the people who are missing the biggest problem: the human element. Factor in the psychology, sociology and politics, and what was an easy problem from the viewpoint of an engineer or would-be idealist, is not so easy in practice. In practice, world hunger and poverty shouldn't be a problem now, yet they are.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one of the most read stories today at the Beeb is this. Originally started out as a 12 billion barrel find in the North Sea, it's now a 600 million barrel one in Ghana(!). Aside from 12 billion being something that should be on front pages everywhere (largest find in 30 years by far), it was then obvious this was a false alarm.

To put that MASSIVE HUGE SUPER find in context, it's about 30 days use for the US, currently.

Whoop-de-fuckin'-doo.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

People will need some solace.

Think of it this way. Nothing here is beyond our technical abilities to figure out and maintain some semblance or normality. Look at New Orleans. Notice how it's till very much a city that looks like it got hit by a hurricane over 18 months back and nothing happened afterwards? What happened? New Orleans could have been rebuilt by now, good as new, if we applied ourselves. That the world's only superpower hasn't done this yet, despite having the technology, money and manpower, is quite an illustrative point.

Technology is not the issue. Never was. The people that look on this and say "I see no problem. We just build nuke reactors, get people to cut back and invest money into renewables while switching to an EV as they move into the cities from suburbia" are the people who are missing the biggest problem: the human element. Factor in the psychology, sociology and politics, and what was an easy problem from the viewpoint of an engineer or would-be idealist, is not so easy in practice. In practice, world hunger and poverty shouldn't be a problem now, yet they are.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one of the most read stories today at the Beeb is this. Originally started out as a 12 billion barrel find in the North Sea, it's now a 600 million barrel one in Ghana(!). Aside from 12 billion being something that should be on front pages everywhere (largest find in 30 years by far), it was then obvious this was a false alarm.

To put that MASSIVE HUGE SUPER find in context, it's about 30 days use for the US, currently.

Whoop-de-fuckin'-doo.

Want to bet that Big Oil will soon be lobbying the Antarctic Treaty Regime to allow exploratory drilling in Antarctica as a serious alternative to preparing for peak oil?

[Broomstick]

Perhaps the most relevant question would be: could you survive a severe and prolonged drop in your buying power? There are people who could actually weather a 30% drop in their real buying power and keep going, albeit at a reduced standard of living (for example, I could, if necessary).

If it weren't for flying, I could withstand more than a 30% in buying power. (Although I admit I'd probably whine quite a bit about it...)

Then again, I've paid down my debt to next to nothing, live well within my means, already take mass transit to work... in other words, acted very differently from my fellow Americans.

[brianeyci]

I don't know if people realize, but the majority of people are not as well off as most people on this board. 1500 dollar a month rent? Give me a break. Most people don't work on salary, make between ten and twenty bucks an hour maximum, and have families to support. The primary expenditure of poor people is rent. Any job over twenty bucks an hour, or any job with a salary, and count your blessings, you have a very good life.

If the economy goes to shit, and all of a sudden those Wal-Mart and fast food jobs dry up, it's not going to be easy for huge hordes of unskilled labor to survive. I don't know many people who can survive a 30% cut to their budget. Most people are in debt and two pay stubs away from homelessness.

It's not always their fault either. Ask people like LadyTevar. Capitalism is made to fuck with the poor, prevent upwards mobility and concentrate the wealth in the hands of the few who know how to manipulate the system. You can work hard and be extremely frugal, and be intelligent and moral, and still be poor as shit.

I've finally accepted however, that better to be part of the system and become one of the few who are rich than fight the power. It makes me almost sick that I'll have to become what I hate, but oh well. I just hope money doesn't get to my head.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

In a major depression, though, rent prices will fall quite a bit. The corporate buttfucking that's kept the middle class's real purchasing power lower than 30 years ago will probably be lessened as enraged consumers lose their complacency. Not to say that a lot of people won't suffer severely, but the cost of living should drop (not counting transportation, of course).

[Darth Wong]

In a major depression, though, rent prices will fall quite a bit. The corporate buttfucking that's kept the middle class's real purchasing power lower than 30 years ago will probably be lessened as enraged consumers lose their complacency. Not to say that a lot of people won't suffer severely, but the cost of living should drop (not counting transportation, of course).

But transportation costs count into the cost of food, which is the most basic living cost of all.

[brianeyci]

Food banks are stressed to the limit already. That being said, I don't think people will starve. If worst comes to worst countries will institute protectionism and price controls. If your country has good domestic food production and is a first world nation, with a liberal government that is. I wouldn't bet on that in the US given the treatment they give Mexicans, but in Canada I expect neocons to be thrown out on their asses.

My main concern is retarded student loan laws, and how I can benefit from the impending doom. If there is some way that student loans could just disappear if the economy and dollar goes to hell, I'm listening. My current strategy is to build up my credit as much as possible, so when the shit hits the fan I can max out credit cards and line of credit in an emergency (which is what credit cards really should be for after all, emergencies like medical or this.)

[AdmiralKanos]

Massive inflation would quickly destroy your debts, as long as they are fixed-interest debts. If they aren't, then you'll be screwed, and I wouldn't count on companies or governments being more generous to debtors in a severe economic downturn.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

That's true, but first worlders eat so many more times the amount of food they really need it's not even funny, and food should be provided for free to down-and-outers in soup kitchens during another huge depression like it was in the 30's.

[Broomstick]

That's true, but first worlders eat so many more times the amount of food they really need it's not even funny

It's not just how much they eat, but what they eat.

You can live very cheaply and indefiniately on something like cheap rice, vegetables (either fresh, frozen, dried, or canned), fruit, beans, and the occassional bit of meat or fish. It's just not what most first worlders are used to.

[brianeyci]

That's good to hear. When my time's up I can negotiate for a fixed interest rate of prime plus five, which is more than twice as much as a floating interest rate, but it's good to know I can still do that. And consolidate all my loans into a fixed interest rate and pay over 20 years. They'll have me by the balls for 20 years, but paying 300 bucks a month for 20 years at a fixed rate knowing the economy will be destroyed in 10 or less is a lot better than 800 bucks a month in five which I could never afford anyway.

I see the middle class being destroyed. I can access a lot of stuff middle class students can't, like getting more than half my debt just automatically written off. And a lot of government programs too. But the middle class is automatically disqualified. They even bring parent's income into the equation, which is total bullshit. But I hear you can get that cut out if you disown your parents .

[Darth Wong]

That's true, but first worlders eat so many more times the amount of food they really need it's not even funny

It's not just how much they eat, but what they eat.

You can live very cheaply and indefiniately on something like cheap rice, vegetables (either fresh, frozen, dried, or canned), fruit, beans, and the occassional bit of meat or fish. It's just not what most first worlders are used to.

Indeed. My sons are accustomed to eating whatever they want, as are most kids in this country. Think about how many kids turn up their noses at food which doesn't meet their exacting standards. One cannot imagine African kids pushing away a plateful of rice, vegetables, and shrimp and saying "I'm not hungry" because it's not one of the three different kinds of food that they actually like. Hell, one of David's friends is so goddamned picky that we've never gotten him to eat anything other than hot dogs or pizza. He won't even eat spaghetti. Never mind eggs.

My kids are actually pretty good that way, mostly because I don't tolerate that spoiled-rotten bullshit and I simply order them to eat whatever fucking food Rebecca made for them. But they're still accustomed to a king's meal on a regular basis.

[Vympel]

My Dad had a good response to us when we'd be picky about our food:

"This is not a damn restaurant."

Then he'd slap us upside the head.

[NeoGoomba]

Theres my childhood right along with Vympel, with the addition of "if you want something else, get your own job and buy your own damn food".

Then when I had money to buy food, I realized that the food my folks brought me up on was cheap, which is why I still eat it. Maybe once in awhile I'll splurge and pan up some veal or filet mignon, but for the most part its pasta, tuna, more pasta, and fruits.

[Darth Wong]

My Dad had a good response to us when we'd be picky about our food:

"This is not a damn restaurant."

Then he'd slap us upside the head.

I never bother with clever comments. If they won't eat their veggies or whatever, I affix them with a menacing stare and simply say "EAT YOUR FOOD. NOW".

[aerius]

I never bother with clever comments. If they won't eat their veggies or whatever, I affix them with a menacing stare and simply say "EAT YOUR FOOD. NOW".

My dad used to do that too, scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. I had to eat everything or I wasn't leaving the dinner table.

But it was for the best, I learned healthy eating habits which I still keep to this day, and I eat healthy balanced meals with vegetables and all the other good stuff.

[Nova Andromeda]

My Dad had a good response to us when we'd be picky about our food:

"This is not a damn restaurant."

Then he'd slap us upside the head.

I never bother with clever comments. If they won't eat their veggies or whatever, I affix them with a menacing stare and simply say "EAT YOUR FOOD. NOW".

-While I'm not a parent I'd offer a word of caution on this front. I remember clearly how my diet suffered when I was younger due to parents with little concern for what I wanted. An illustrating anecdote is when I was 3 or 4 I was told to eat my green beans at daycare. I told the lady I didn't like them and would prefer not to eat them because I knew I wouldn't like them from the smell (it was implied I preferred to go hungry). She insisted that I at least try them. I was obedient and tried them only to puke them up almost immediately. I've been told that I'm an overtaster and to this day I can't stand cellory, brockely, or coffee unless it is so dilute that it's coffee ice cream.
-The above illustration is to show that children's desires when it comes to food can be very accurate, and as I discovered later, strongly linked to their actual needs. My parents always wanted me to "eat my greens." While I was not adverse to having some I WANTED a much much larger portion of protein, fat, and carbohydrate. Things like meat, milk, ice cream, sugar, etc. However, I often just went hungry since all there was in the fridge was greens and other equally low calorie foods. In fact, my friend and I would work whole weekends doing manual labor just to ride to the store, buy ice cream, toppings, and milk, and then consume them in under an hour (normally I'd go through 1/2-1 gallon of stuff). Things were even worse when I was running cross country and burning obscene levels of energy. It was only years later that I learned my lack of access to bulk protein and energy seriously diminished my performance and as well as my muscle mass. It should also be noted that when I went to the grandparents during the summer I would gain 10-15lbs in mostly muscle since they let me eat much more of what I wanted as long as I tried what they offered. Oh, and let's not forget that literally every one of my friends parents would ask if my parents fed me.
-What's my point? Don't let stubborn lessons on obedience get in the way of actually feeding your kids. I mean do they actually NEED all those greens if they get multivitamins and fruit?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So your solution to this "impeding doom" is to invest thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in solar panels, fancy toilets, and generators? Interesting.

I am telling a family how to position themselves to be prosperous post-Peak Oil. That is ENTIRELY different advice from what should be taken by a society at whole, clear?

The difference is that society at whole refuses to take the advice offered to it, while the family at least might listen.

[Darth Wong]

While I'm not a parent I'd offer a word of caution on this front.

Based on your extensive experience, no doubt

My kids are the best eaters in their peer group; I think I will take my own counsel on what works, thank you very much Mr. Non-Parent.

I remember clearly how my diet suffered when I was younger due to parents with little concern for what I wanted. An illustrating anecdote is when I was 3 or 4 I was told to eat my green beans at daycare. I told the lady I didn't like them and would prefer not to eat them because I knew I wouldn't like them from the smell (it was implied I preferred to go hungry). She insisted that I at least try them. I was obedient and tried them only to puke them up almost immediately. I've been told that I'm an overtaster and to this day I can't stand cellory, brockely, or coffee unless it is so dilute that it's coffee ice cream.

So you are still an incredibly picky eater to this day?

The above illustration is to show that children's desires when it comes to food can be very accurate, and as I discovered later, strongly linked to their actual needs. My parents always wanted me to "eat my greens." While I was not adverse to having some I WANTED a much much larger portion of protein, fat, and carbohydrate. Things like meat, milk, ice cream, sugar, etc. However, I often just went hungry since all there was in the fridge was greens and other equally low calorie foods. In fact, my friend and I would work whole weekends doing manual labor just to ride to the store, buy ice cream, toppings, and milk, and then consume them in under an hour (normally I'd go through 1/2-1 gallon of stuff). Things were even worse when I was running cross country and burning obscene levels of energy. It was only years later that I learned my lack of access to bulk protein and energy seriously diminished my performance and as well as my muscle mass. It should also be noted that when I went to the grandparents during the summer I would gain 10-15lbs in mostly muscle since they let me eat much more of what I wanted as long as I tried what they offered. Oh, and let's not forget that literally every one of my friends parents would ask if my parents fed me.

That's not a case of parents failing to give you what you need; it's a case of parents trying to give you what you need but doing it wrong. The fact that you are STILL an incredibly picky eater even as an adult does not mean that they should have catered to this behaviour when you were a child.

What's my point? Don't let stubborn lessons on obedience get in the way of actually feeding your kids. I mean do they actually NEED all those greens if they get multivitamins and fruit?

They NEED to learn how to eat a well-balanced diet. They NEED to learn how to eat food without being so picky that they would rapidly suffer degenerative diseases without an artificial supplement cocktail to replace what they're not getting from their food.

Do you honestly think it's healthy for an adult to be such a picky eater that he is incapable of eating common foods like celery and broccoli?

[His Divine Shadow]

I could take quite a big drop in buying power. My car fortunately enough is of the kind that increases in value as long as I take care of it. I could sell it for quite alot of money and the savings in insurance would be formidable. Though I am worried how a potential oil crash could affect car values, even old ones for collection purposes. Maybe I should sell it in the years to come before it happens... If I ever have kids it's probably gonna have to go anyway, too bad for them when they grow up then, no daddys muscle car to inherit for them.

There are also quite a large savings to be made by hunting, one elk will provided meat for a year if you got a big freezer. I don't hunt at all but I could take it up if I had little money and food was expensive. We already grow most of our own vegetables in the summertime.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, there are now maybe 3-4 different bids by several companies, domestic and foreign to build more nuclear plants in Finland. One is Vattenfall, looks like the swedes want to build nuclear plants here when they can't do it at home. We could have an additional 4000MW in electricity production by 2020 if all these where to be approved.

[Mr Flibble]

Want to bet that Big Oil will soon be lobbying the Antarctic Treaty Regime to allow exploratory drilling in Antarctica as a serious alternative to preparing for peak oil?

About two years ago the Australian government paid for a massive seismic survey of the coast of the Australian Antarctic territory, so much so that that region is now better covered by (Australian owned) seismic data than the coast of Australia itself (excepting our producing oilfields). I'm pretty sure there is more behind that than pure scientific interest.

[Tiriol]

Also, there are now maybe 3-4 different bids by several companies, domestic and foreign to build more nuclear plants in Finland. One is Vattenfall, looks like the swedes want to build nuclear plants here when they can't do it at home. We could have an additional 4000MW in electricity production by 2020 if all these where to be approved.

Sadly, the public opinion seems to be against nuclear power. Many believe that nuclear plants are nothing more than Tshernobyls waiting to melt down and cause havoc and radiation and spontaenously mutated teenage ninja turtles; others oppose nuclear power on the basis that it isn't "green" enough and that we should invest only in solar and wind power; and still others oppose it just because it reminds them of the United States and since the magazines, newspapers etc. are all but screaming how we are becoming Mini-USA, many want to reject ANYTHING that might lead us down that path. Sentimental arguments trumping over the reason and logic and even basic necessity. And I won't lie - it was only about four or five years ago when I had my doubts about nuclear power. Then I took some time to study the situation and think about these things clearly and I changed my mind.