French schools 'violate Muslim rights'

[Justforfun000]

What a sticky issue. I'm honestly not sure what the best policy is on this. Here in Canada, we have laws allowing religious expression, so it's practically the opposite of France, but we also have limits. We seem to allow anything that does not cause demonstrable harm to others, and I think that's probably the best way to go. We don't seem to have any serious proablems here anyway. I'm assuming that means it works.

French schools 'violate Muslim rights'
Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:17:12

Muslims protest against France's ban on hijab
French schools violate the rights of headscarf-wearing Muslim mothers by preventing them from taking part in their children's outings.

An anti-discrimination body has reported that a group of Muslim women petitioned the French anti-discrimination authority HALDE after they were barred from accompanying their children in school trips or any other extra-curricular activities.

To justify its discriminative move, the school has invoked a 2004 French law, which bans students from wearing religious insignia, including Muslim headscarves (hijab).

In a ruling dated May 14, the HALDE stressed the ban only concerns students, and that "the refusal on principle for mothers wearing the headscarf" to join in school activities was a clear "discrimination on religious grounds."

The HALDE recommended that all schools revise their guidelines on parent participation "in order to respect the principle of non-discrimination on religious grounds."

France, which has Europe's biggest Muslim population, is one of the few countries to have passed legislation banning visible religious symbols in public schools.

The law sparked a wave of anger among Muslims worldwide.

[Dalton]

It's clothing. Why make a big fucking stink about clothing?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's clothing. Why make a big fucking stink about clothing?

Because it's a symbol of female oppression by Islam.

[Dartzap]

Thankfully, this issue is currently tucked away nicely in the psyche of the UK Muslims. When it does spring back up, it'll be bigger than ever. *sighs*

No doubt we're due some sort of outrage from some group or anouther this year. It's been remarkably quiet on the outspoken-religious-type so far.

[Darth Wong]

It's clothing. Why make a big fucking stink about clothing?

In the case of the beekeeper suit, it's clothing that conceals your identity. In the case of the hijab that shows the face, it's just people targeting Islam.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It's clothing. Why make a big fucking stink about clothing?

In the case of the beekeeper suit, it's clothing that conceals your identity. In the case of the hijab that shows the face, it's just people targeting Islam.

The laïcité is applied quite evenly to all religions in France.

[Darth Wong]

It's clothing. Why make a big fucking stink about clothing?

In the case of the beekeeper suit, it's clothing that conceals your identity. In the case of the hijab that shows the face, it's just people targeting Islam.

The laïcité is applied quite evenly to all religions in France.

And the rule about opposite-sex marriage is applied quite evenly to all sexual orientations in Texas. Your point?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In the case of the beekeeper suit, it's clothing that conceals your identity. In the case of the hijab that shows the face, it's just people targeting Islam.

The laïcité is applied quite evenly to all religions in France.

And the rule about opposite-sex marriage is applied quite evenly to all sexual orientations in Texas. Your point?

Any symbol of religion is banned in official functions in France, regardless the religion of the wearer. As the hijab is Quranically mandated... It is necessarily banned by the French state. The French has pissed off Catholic school-teachers, Sikhs, and Orthodox Jews just as much with this policy.

It doesn't specifically target Muslims, in short, and it exists to explicitly and rigidly separate church from state in a country with plenty tradition and desire to do so.

[Darth Wong]

Any symbol of religion is banned in official functions in France, regardless the religion of the wearer. As the hijab is Quranically mandated... It is necessarily banned by the French state. The French has pissed off Catholic school-teachers, Sikhs, and Orthodox Jews just as much with this policy.

Ah yes, I forgot that it's a universal prohibition on all religious symbology, unlike the specific anti-hijab measures that some provincial fucktards are trying to institute in Quebec.

[ArmorPierce]

Any symbol of religion is banned in official functions in France, regardless the religion of the wearer. As the hijab is Quranically mandated... It is necessarily banned by the French state. The French has pissed off Catholic school-teachers, Sikhs, and Orthodox Jews just as much with this policy.

It is not "Quranically mandated" No where in the Koran does it say that women must wear a hijab or hijab like adornment. If you'd like to prove me otherwise, show me where.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Those who harass believing men and believing women unjustifiably shall bear the guilt of slander and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their cloaks over them. That is more proper, so that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. God is ever forgiving and merciful. If the hypocrites and those who have the ailment in their hearts and the scandal mongers of Madinah do not desist, We will rouse you against them, and their days in that city will be numbered. Cursed be they; wherever found, they would be seized and put to death.

— Qur'an , 33:58-61


In case you don't know, a cloak happens to have a hood.

This verse has therefore been used as sufficient justification by all Muslim religious sources for the wearing of the hijab as a religious obligation.

[Hugh]

What a sticky issue.

It's only sticky because of the fundies. Some time ago, a politician suggested that Romania should take example from France and ban all religious symbols in schools. Guess who made a big ugly fuss about it. The Eastern Orthodox Christians, who are the vast majority around here. I didn't hear one word from members of other religions. Come to think of it, that's strange. I see a lot more women wearing a hijab on the street (though they don't cover their faces - I believe it's illegal in the first place) than people wearing a cross. Or even homes with crosses in them, for that matter.

Frankly, I think it's not what one's religion mandates, it's what people think. E.g. the Romanian Muslims are totally against war and terrorism. They even claim the Quran mandates tolerance and bans suicide (can anyone confirm, BTW?). On the other hand, I've been almost beaten once because someone saw me reading from a Bible, and it was visibly not an Orthodox one (it was a present).

[Edi]

Those who harass believing men and believing women unjustifiably shall bear the guilt of slander and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their cloaks over them. That is more proper, so that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. God is ever forgiving and merciful. If the hypocrites and those who have the ailment in their hearts and the scandal mongers of Madinah do not desist, We will rouse you against them, and their days in that city will be numbered. Cursed be they; wherever found, they would be seized and put to death.

— Qur'an , 33:58-61


In case you don't know, a cloak happens to have a hood.

This verse has therefore been used as sufficient justification by all Muslim religious sources for the wearing of the hijab as a religious obligation.

Cloaks have a hood, which does not automatically include a veil. It probably does in a desert environment, but if that is a literal translation, they have no fucking leg to stand on.

[Jade Falcon]

The laïcité is applied quite evenly to all religions in France.

Indeed, and that seems to be ignored by a lot of people (not anyone in this thread), in a case of trying to make France out to be discriminating against Muslims, when that is patently false, and as the Duchess points out, it is applied to all overt religious symbology.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Cloaks have a hood, which does not automatically include a veil. It probably does in a desert environment, but if that is a literal translation, they have no fucking leg to stand on.

The hijhab is the headscarf, Eddy. The veil is not demanded by Islam (except according to some Taliban style truly retarded fuckheads), and can be banned for other obvious reasons, like the fact that concealing your face in public is sign of hostile intent.

[ArmorPierce]

Those who harass believing men and believing women unjustifiably shall bear the guilt of slander and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their cloaks over them. That is more proper, so that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. God is ever forgiving and merciful. If the hypocrites and those who have the ailment in their hearts and the scandal mongers of Madinah do not desist, We will rouse you against them, and their days in that city will be numbered. Cursed be they; wherever found, they would be seized and put to death.

— Qur'an , 33:58-61


In case you don't know, a cloak happens to have a hood.

This verse has therefore been used as sufficient justification by all Muslim religious sources for the wearing of the hijab as a religious obligation.

Your translation is wrong. That verse says to put on outer garments probably referring to a shawl rather than a cloak since I don't believe that cloaks were that commonly used in Medina. Furthermore, not all cloaks got a head piece.

[ArmorPierce]

So what I'm pointing out is that the hijab is a cultural custom rather than a religious item that has been around for far longer than the religion has been around and in the region that it originated, it wasn't uncommon for men to have sorts of head covering neither.

[ArmorPierce]

just caught this part

This verse has therefore been used as sufficient justification by all Muslim religious sources for the wearing of the hijab as a religious obligation.

No it hasn't, it has been used as justification by some muslim sources even though there is no reference to covering your head or face.

For those that don't know this is what a shawl is http://www.lionking.org/~tru/faroeseMW.gif It is normally held over the shoulders and was common in the area. It doesn't have any special head piece but it can be put over the head if one so wishes, but that's kind of digging as a koran mandate to cover your head.