Anti-whaling lobby rebuffs Japan

[The Yosemite Bear]

Anyway, the Japanese plan would not have been anything like a return to the 1800s.

Only because there aren't enough whales to do whaling operations like those done in the 1800s. They were joing up with various other pro-whaling countries to get the limits dropped.

They wanted to increase quotas, not to allow total freedom. This is a slippery slope you are using.

Well, there's this one group that's been engaging in semi-legal activities to stop the Japanese whalers: http://www.seashepherd.org/

Dunno how successful they really are, but they must be having some effect, seeing as how Japan is trying to get them condemned by the International Whaling Commission.

"Semi-legal"? They used to use sabotage.

would it be ironic, and profoundly immoral to use those dolphins that the navy trained to plant explosives against the japanese?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The whales are certainly lucky that westerners have no particular taste for their meat. That's why Europeans can decimate fish stocks so badly that they have to trawl all the way across the Atlantic, just outside the international lines off the North American east coast, where they're trying to decimate our fish stocks too, and then they turn around and point fingers at the irresponsible Japanese for killing whales.

One of the main reasons that Iceland and Norway are vigorously opposed to EU membership is because of the common fishing policy. They prefer to protect their fishing stocks for the future instead of letting them get assraped by the Spanish mega-trawler Armada which is currently systematically finishing off the sustainability of European fishing runs.

[Erik von Nein]

You have evidence for the claim that this is their goal?

Well, there's this:

Japan and others are pushing for an end to a 1986 global moratorium on commercial whaling. Still, Japan kills hundreds of whales each year under a scientific program allowed by the commission, and the meat is sold as food.

As well as this:

Japan will consider walking away from the International Whaling Commission and setting up a rival organisation.

It was especially irked by the refusal of anti-whaling countries to discuss a small amount of commercial whaling by four Japanese coastal communities.

Japan has made similar statements in previous years.

So, I was wrong about them completely wanting to do away with limits, but they do desire a return to the pre-1986 bans, which is nearly as bad. And, considering they are willing to use the threat of forming their own comission (and, considering the support they have in the IWC, that's not too light of a threat) over small increases in small community takes it's not hard to see that they'd certainly like a complete drop of all whaling limits.

That's where I probably got the idea of them wanting to do away with ban.

[Aaron]

I don't understand the need for whaling at all. However, as part of a system to maintain a population, I could see it being acceptable. This isn't maintaining a species though, so how could one justify or even begin to contemplate hunting endangered whales? Aren't we over-fishing our stocks to death? It's just baffling. There has to be a point at which people realize they can't keep eating the way they do until they start farming the stock themselves.

See this thread for details on how we will be out of edible ocean fish by 2048.

[Spin Echo]

What I don't get about the Japanese is that they are pushing to increase their quotas of whaling and include endangered species no less, but yet they're having a hard time selling the meat from the number of whales they already catch. The government spent several million dollars in a promotional campaign to try to get more people to buy whale meat.

At least the Scandinavians want to eat the whales they catch.

[tim31]

I'm all for Harpooning any Japanese whaling ships that are seen in Australian territorial waters trying to harpoon whales.

And I don't mean with a metal slug.

Like this?

I still think we need to, for a season or so, send navy frigates to shadow the Japanese ships, blasting out 'Get the fuck out of here' in Whalesong over their active sonars.

After all, the seas are free passage for all no?

The RAN was actually following the whaling fleet last season, but only to intervene should the activists try to make a move. That was around the same time one of the whaling ships suffered an on-board fire.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

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[Lord Zentei]

So, I was wrong about them completely wanting to do away with limits, but they do desire a return to the pre-1986 bans, which is nearly as bad. And, considering they are willing to use the threat of forming their own comission (and, considering the support they have in the IWC, that's not too light of a threat) over small increases in small community takes it's not hard to see that they'd certainly like a complete drop of all whaling limits.

That's where I probably got the idea of them wanting to do away with ban.

Yeah. Well, I would disagree that commercial whaling with quotas is "nearly as bad" as doing away with them outright. I submit that the whole issue regarding sustainability is the size of the catch, not its nature (commercial, scientific or sustenance).

Moreso, since they offered to reduce their scientific catch by the same amount by which their commercial catch would have been (not counting the humpbacks), and at least one of the "anti-whaling" countries (the USA) allows sustenance whaling of its own.

would it be ironic, and profoundly immoral to use those dolphins that the navy trained to plant explosives against the japanese?

Yes on both counts.

[Gustav32Vasa]

At least the Scandinavians want to eat the whales they catch.

Norway and Island, NOT Sweden. Please dont speak of us together with them in whaling matter.

[Spin Echo]

At least the Scandinavians want to eat the whales they catch.

Norway and Island, NOT Sweden. Please dont speak of us together with them in whaling matter.

Unnskyld.

[Covenant]

I don't understand the need for whaling at all. However, as part of a system to maintain a population, I could see it being acceptable. This isn't maintaining a species though, so how could one justify or even begin to contemplate hunting endangered whales? Aren't we over-fishing our stocks to death? It's just baffling. There has to be a point at which people realize they can't keep eating the way they do until they start farming the stock themselves.

See this thread for details on how we will be out of edible ocean fish by 2048.

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. It's pretty obvious to me at least that both whales AND fish are a non-renewable resource if you keep whacking them at this rate. I rarely eat fish, and make it a point to eat uglyass river fish, like Catfish, rather than wierd sea fish. This is one of these moronic blindspots people have. Nobody is willing to stop eating things.

[Norseman]

There's a lot of bullshit going on when people talk about whaling, first of all... there's no such thing as The Whale. Before you got nuts hear me out: There's minke whales, there narwhales, there's blue whales, there's all kinds of different types of whales. Saying that The Whale or The Whales is threatened with extinction because some types of whale are is like saying that The Felines are threatened by extinction for the same reason.

Norway hunts the Minke Whale, the International Whaling Commission estimates that there are 175 000 of them in the Northern Hemisphere. The Norwegian quota in 2006 was 1025 animals.

Killing 1/175th of the population each year is hardly likely to exterminate the population!

There are whales that are genuinely threatened by extinction, and you know what? They are protected species and are not being hunted for that reason.

The High North Alliance has some interesting data you're unlikely to find elsewhere such as: The Whaling Argument: Explore the Green Route! There's also a Library of Articles.

By the way take a look at the members of the whaling commission there is a lot of third world countries with no history of whaling. In fact there are several countries there that have no coastline whatsoever.

Now why would they be members of the IWC? The answer of course is that environmentalist groups would "persuade" poor countries to join up in return for donations. Which is why I'm so amused by the protests about Japan bribing members states.

This is a blogpost but it amusingly describes the situation: Who's the best briber at the International Whaling Commission?

[Broomstick]

What kind of sick fuck chooses to eat whale meat, anyway?

LOTS of people throughout history have eaten whale meat, in addition to burning whale oil for light and wearing whalebone as part of their clothing. A significant number still eat whale, it being an available food in their environment. Eating whale does not make someone a "sick fuck" any more than eating horses or pigs or cows or dogs a "sick fuck".

What makes the term "sick fuck" apply is eating an endangered species.

[Broomstick]

Moreso, since they offered to reduce their scientific catch by the same amount by which their commercial catch would have been (not counting the humpbacks), and at least one of the "anti-whaling" countries (the USA) allows sustenance whaling of its own.

1) The "scientific" whaling performed by the Japanese has long been considered very thinly disguised commercial whaling. No one else doing whale science is killing whales.

2) The whaling permitted in the US is real subsistence hunting. In order to participate you have to be part of an indigenous group with a history of subsistence whale hunting. There are strict quotas. For the most part, the meat is consumed by the hunters, not sold for profit (although live whales have been sold). These are in no way big, multi-million dollar operations. As a result, the whales taken tend to be the smaller species and taken close to shore. These guys are not putting out to the open sea in floating factories. Even so, this is pretty controversial in some US circles, it's not a widely condoned practice and you don't have whale steaks being served up as exotic cuisine for bored gourmands in the big cities.

would it be ironic, and profoundly immoral to use those dolphins that the navy trained to plant explosives against the japanese?

Yes on both counts.

Wouldn't work - the Japanese eat dolphin, too. They'd just catch 'em and eat 'em before they completed the mission.

[Lord Zentei]

1) The "scientific" whaling performed by the Japanese has long been considered very thinly disguised commercial whaling. No one else doing whale science is killing whales.

Then accepting the transfer of the quotas should not be an issue.

2) The whaling permitted in the US is real subsistence hunting. In order to participate you have to be part of an indigenous group with a history of subsistence whale hunting. There are strict quotas. For the most part, the meat is consumed by the hunters, not sold for profit (although live whales have been sold). These are in no way big, multi-million dollar operations. As a result, the whales taken tend to be the smaller species and taken close to shore. These guys are not putting out to the open sea in floating factories. Even so, this is pretty controversial in some US circles, it's not a widely condoned practice and you don't have whale steaks being served up as exotic cuisine for bored gourmands in the big cities.

It is a double standard regardless: I really cannot see the moral difference between an "indigenous group" with a history of whaling doing so versus any other population doing so. It's not as though they canot switch between prey species - say, to seals or whatever. Yet, for them, "culture" is somehow an excuse, while for the Japanese, their culture is called "stupid" under the same circumstances.

In any case, I reiterate the earlier point that it is the size of the catch, not the nature of the catch that is the crux as far as sustainable hunting is concerned (and, I might add, the species of whale, since they are not all in the same situation).

[Sharp-kun]

What kind of sick fuck chooses to eat whale meat, anyway?

What kind of sick fuck chooses to eat fish meat anyway?

Whales are not endangered. Some species of whale are. If they can sustainably hunt more of a non-endangered species why shouldn't they be allowed to? Why do whales rank higher than other animals?

I personally wouldn't eat whale, but I don't really care for some animals getting knee jerk support just because they're "special".

[Broomstick]

1) The "scientific" whaling performed by the Japanese has long been considered very thinly disguised commercial whaling. No one else doing whale science is killing whales.

Then accepting the transfer of the quotas should not be an issue.

Personally, I'd rather they stop using the science excuse and just openly admit they're whaling for profit and because some people like to eat them. I'll give them points for honesty.

I can not, however, condone eating threatened species. Indeed, because sharks are being rapidly overfished I've given up eating them myself, despite a fondness for mako.

2) The whaling permitted in the US is real subsistence hunting. In order to participate you have to be part of an indigenous group with a history of subsistence whale hunting. There are strict quotas. For the most part, the meat is consumed by the hunters, not sold for profit (although live whales have been sold). These are in no way big, multi-million dollar operations. As a result, the whales taken tend to be the smaller species and taken close to shore. These guys are not putting out to the open sea in floating factories. Even so, this is pretty controversial in some US circles, it's not a widely condoned practice and you don't have whale steaks being served up as exotic cuisine for bored gourmands in the big cities.

It is a double standard regardless: I really cannot see the moral difference between an "indigenous group" with a history of whaling doing so versus any other population doing so. It's not as though they canot switch between prey species - say, to seals or whatever. Yet, for them, "culture" is somehow an excuse, while for the Japanese, their culture is called "stupid" under the same circumstances.

I'm sorry you can't distinguish between people hunting directly for their own food, small villages that simply don't have the physical resources to take large numbers of anything, much less the larger whales, using weaponry that might be modern or even high tech but is sharply limited... and multi-million dollar/pound/yen/whatever corporate endeavors that exist to extract as much wealth as quickly as possible from the sea.

The villages that are permitted whales have definite quotas of one or two whales per year. Commercial fishers are capable of taking hundreds, if not thousands, of times that number in a year per ship.

In any case, I reiterate the earlier point that it is the size of the catch, not the nature of the catch that is the crux as far as sustainable hunting is concerned (and, I might add, the species of whale, since they are not all in the same situation).

And THAT is why there is a difference between the whaling permitted indigenous Americans and what the Japanese want. Or did you somehow imagine the indigenes had carte blanche to do what they want? They, too, have limits.

[AniThyng]

What kind of sick fuck chooses to eat whale meat, anyway?

What kind of sick fuck chooses to eat fish meat anyway?

Whales are not endangered. Some species of whale are. If they can sustainably hunt more of a non-endangered species why shouldn't they be allowed to? Why do whales rank higher than other animals?

I personally wouldn't eat whale, but I don't really care for some animals getting knee jerk support just because they're "special".

Case in point: Dog. That also tends to elicit very strong reactions.

[Lord Zentei]

I'm sorry you can't distinguish between people hunting directly for their own food, small villages that simply don't have the physical resources to take large numbers of anything, much less the larger whales, using weaponry that might be modern or even high tech but is sharply limited... and multi-million dollar/pound/yen/whatever corporate endeavors that exist to extract as much wealth as quickly as possible from the sea.

The villages that are permitted whales have definite quotas of one or two whales per year. Commercial fishers are capable of taking hundreds, if not thousands, of times that number in a year per ship.

"Capable of" does not equate to what they would have been permitted.

Incidentally, the native americans would have been permitted nine hundred whales over the next five years (bowhead and gray whales). That's a far cry from "one or two per year".

In any case, I reiterate the earlier point that it is the size of the catch, not the nature of the catch that is the crux as far as sustainable hunting is concerned (and, I might add, the species of whale, since they are not all in the same situation).

And THAT is why there is a difference between the whaling permitted indigenous Americans and what the Japanese want. Or did you somehow imagine the indigenes had carte blanche to do what they want? They, too, have limits.

Don't be silly. Of course I don't think any such thing, nor did I make any such claim.

"What the Japanese want" vis-a-vis the deal that was rejected was not, as you suggest, a huge increase. It seems you are insinuating that any whaling by the Japanese would inevitably become enormously greater than that of the native Americans -- despite the proposed quotas being very restrictive -- simply by dint of their whaling being conducted by more advanced methods than those of the "subsistance hunters".

[Broomstick]

Incidentally, the native americans would have been permitted nine hundred whales over the next five years (bowhead and gray whales). That's a far cry from "one or two per year".

I didn't say ALL the aborigines totaled up to 1 or 2 a year - it's more like 1 or 3 per village or similar group which, world wide, could easily add up to a couple hundred. And even then, they're limited to specific whale species. These are hunting levels that there is reason to believe have been sustained for millenia without adversely affecting those particular whale populations. In this case humans function as any other predator in the environment.

"What the Japanese want" vis-a-vis the deal that was rejected was not, as you suggest, a huge increase.

I didn't suggest it was an increase at all. I merely stated that I wish they would drop the "science" bullshit and just fucking admit they were whaling because they want the meat for eating. They can keep the same damn quota for all I care.

IF it could be demonstrated that an increase in taking whales would not endanger the hunted populations I would most likely be indifferent to such an increase - but I can't condone hunting that threatens the survival of a species, not even subsistence hunting.

It seems you are insinuating that any whaling by the Japanese would inevitably become enormously greater than that of the native Americans -- despite the proposed quotas being very restrictive -- simply by dint of their whaling being conducted by more advanced methods than those of the "subsistance hunters".

Nope, I suspect the profit motive would lead people to cheat and try to exceed the quotas. I don't believe the quotas are or will be strictly enforced simply because no one is willing to exert the force required to do so.

[Lord Zentei]

Incidentally, the native americans would have been permitted nine hundred whales over the next five years (bowhead and gray whales). That's a far cry from "one or two per year".

I didn't say ALL the aborigines totaled up to 1 or 2 a year - it's more like 1 or 3 per village or similar group which, world wide, could easily add up to a couple hundred. And even then, they're limited to specific whale species. These are hunting levels that there is reason to believe have been sustained for millenia without adversely affecting those particular whale populations. In this case humans function as any other predator in the environment.

Fair enough. Though you did claim that the commercial whalers can take "hundreds, if not thousands" times the number of whales the indigenous whalers can. That did suggest you were understating the number they hunted by quite a margin.

"What the Japanese want" vis-a-vis the deal that was rejected was not, as you suggest, a huge increase.

I didn't suggest it was an increase at all. I merely stated that I wish they would drop the "science" bullshit and just fucking admit they were whaling because they want the meat for eating. They can keep the same damn quota for all I care.

Well, that's reasonable.

IF it could be demonstrated that an increase in taking whales would not endanger the hunted populations I would most likely be indifferent to such an increase - but I can't condone hunting that threatens the survival of a species, not even subsistence hunting.

That too is reasonable. As of today, there are estimated to be around 30,000-40,000 humpbacks of which Japan wanted to take 50 next season, and 8000 bowheads, of which the natives are permitted to take just over 50 per year.

It seems you are insinuating that any whaling by the Japanese would inevitably become enormously greater than that of the native Americans -- despite the proposed quotas being very restrictive -- simply by dint of their whaling being conducted by more advanced methods than those of the "subsistance hunters".

Nope, I suspect the profit motive would lead people to cheat and try to exceed the quotas. I don't believe the quotas are or will be strictly enforced simply because no one is willing to exert the force required to do so.

That seems rather less reasonable, IMHO.

[Sea Skimmer]

The whales are certainly lucky that westerners have no particular taste for their meat. That's why Europeans can decimate fish stocks so badly that they have to trawl all the way across the Atlantic, just outside the international lines off the North American east coast, where they're trying to decimate our fish stocks too, and then they turn around and point fingers at the irresponsible Japanese for killing whales.

Well what’s stupid about the whole situation is that the Japanese actually don’t have much of a tradition of eating whale meat dispite being an island nation. Most of the demand comes from the immediate post WW2 period when starvation forced them to eat anything possible, and relatively small numbers of people took a long term liking to it. I do believe one episode of Cowboy Beepob makes fun of this.