Hugo Chavez to shut down opposition TV, rallies ensue

[Glocksman]

Oh, then you wouldn't complain if Bush & Co. took CNN of the air because they didn't like their take on the administration. Nor would you complain if Comedy Central went off too because the Administration doesn't like John Stuart's and Stephen Colbert's merciless mocking.

Bush's sycophants got Bill Maher, Ashley Banfield and Phil Donahue fired. They got the Dixie Chicks blacklisted, too. Michael Powell and the rest of the FCC just happened to start fining Infinity Broadcasting (Howard Stern's old company) millions of dollars for "indecency", effectively kicking him off the air, when Stern announced he was going to support John Kerry in 2004.

The significance of what's being said, perhaps? Political speech is the most important form of free speech.

Sex is politics. -Gore Vidal

Is there a point to this beyond "lol, shrubby did it too, lol" as though that made it OK?

Not that getting a number of hosts and commentators blacklistied is equivalent to shutting down the only opposition television station entirely.

Unless Elfdart can prove he did, the 'shrubby did it too' excuse doesn't even apply, as it doesn't take a marketing genius to realize pissing off your core audience of country music fans was career suicide for the Dixie Chicks.
And strangely enough, I thought Donahue lost his last show because of bad ratings, not 'Bush's sycophants'. If they were truly that powerful, wouldn't Keith Olbermann have been seeking new employment years ago?

[Elfdart]

Is there a point to this beyond "lol, shrubby did it too, lol" as though that made it OK?

Not that getting a number of hosts and commentators blacklistied is equivalent to shutting down the only opposition television station entirely.

It certainly isn't comparable. None of the media figures who got shitcanned, blacklisted, etc were accused of supporting a coup against the United States government, now were they?

Unless Elfdart can prove he did, the 'shrubby did it too' excuse doesn't even apply, as it doesn't take a marketing genius to realize pissing off your core audience of country music fans was career suicide for the Dixie Chicks.

When broadcasters have to renew licenses and get government approval for mergers, they don't have to be told to make so-and-so shut up. That's why Opie and Anthony are in hot water: XM and Sirius are trying to merge but need approval from the government. The network didn't need to be told to suspend them for crude jokes about Kindasleazy Rice and Laura Bush.

And strangely enough, I thought Donahue lost his last show because of bad ratings, not 'Bush's sycophants'. If they were truly that powerful, wouldn't Keith Olbermann have been seeking new employment years ago?

Donahue had the highest rating of any show on MSNBC, but was cancelled anyway:

Jeff Cohen

When Donahue was terminated three weeks before the Iraq invasion, it was MSNBC's most watched program. Canceling your top-rated show doesn't happen often, but it happened to Donahue. Who knows what will happen to Olbermann?

With Donahue, management cared less about building up audience than tamping down dissent. While independent outlets and blogs were soaring in audience by questioning the rush to war, our bosses imposed straightjackets on us that prevented similar growth.

In the last months of Donahue, management gave us strict orders: if we booked a guest who was antiwar, we needed two who were pro-war. If we booked two guests on the left, we needed three on the right. When a producer proposed booking Michael Moore, she was told she'd need three rightwingers for ideological balance.

and

The day after Donahue was terminated, an internal NBC memo leaked out; it said that Phil Donahue represents "a difficult public face for NBC in a time of war." Why? Because he insisted on presenting administration critics. The memo worried that Donahue would become a "home for the liberal antiwar agenda at the same time that our competitors are waving the flag at every opportunity."

NBC's solution then? Dump Phil, stifle dissent, brandish the flag.

Bill Maher's show also had good ratings before he was dumped by ABC, and the Dixie Chicks' CD was on the Billboard Top 10 (moving UP the chart when their singer said she was embarassed to be from the same state as Numbnuts).

They were kicked off the airwaves because they opposed the Bush Junta and other war whores and no, they weren't advocating the armed overthrow of the government.

[Lord Zentei]

Is there a point to this beyond "lol, shrubby did it too, lol" as though that made it OK?

Not that getting a number of hosts and commentators blacklistied is equivalent to shutting down the only opposition television station entirely.

It certainly isn't comparable. None of the media figures who got shitcanned, blacklisted, etc were accused of supporting a coup against the United States government, now were they?

Indeed. Even shrub wouldn't be so crass as to make that bullshit accusation. As Adrian Laguna pointed out, and you failed to respond to:

It didn't really have a hand in the coup, all it did was engage in dishonest reporting that implicated some of Chavez's supporters on an overpass shooting opposition marchers. The actual shooters were in the high-rises, not the overpass. The evidence suggests the shooters were attacking both the opposition and pro-Chavez marches, the men in the overpass were merely trying to defend themselves. I do not know how by any stretch of the imagination you can call that supporting a coup.

Though you seem to have missed the point: you are using the behaviour of shrubby to excuse Hugo's antics; railing about such and such being pulled off the air in the US. As if that made Hugo's behaviour OK. Classic Tu Quoque fallacy.

Way to change the fucking subject of the thread, jackhole.

[Adrian Laguna]

It certainly isn't comparable. None of the media figures who got shitcanned, blacklisted, etc were accused of supporting a coup against the United States government, now were they?

An accusation that is pure bullshit. I dare you to give any proof that RCTV planed incited or otherwise materially aided the coup against the government.

[K. A. Pital]

Excuse me, but didn't one of the managers of RCTV admit to participating in the coup, or? I'm not sure if that's so.

[Elfdart]

Indeed. Even shrub wouldn't be so crass as to make that bullshit accusation.

That would be kind of hard since there never was a coup against Dubya.

As Adrian Laguna pointed out, and you failed to respond to:

Just dishonest reporting about who was shooting whom -while army officers were trying to abduct Chavez. If several Army officers were in the middle of overthrowing Bush and a TV network was aiding and abetting by running bullshit newscasts of "Bush's supporters open fire on peaceful crowd!", at best they are accessories after the fact and that station would deserve to be taken off the air. And rightfully so. Free speech doesn't include goading someone who is in the middle of committing a crime to continue. Last time I checked, treason was a serious crime.

Though you seem to have missed the point: you are using the behaviour of shrubby to excuse Hugo's antics; railing about such and such being pulled off the air in the US. As if that made Hugo's behaviour OK. Classic Tu Quoque fallacy.

If you had bothered to read, asshole I pointed out that if anything, what Chavez did is much more justifiable if that station really was broadcasting pro-overthrow agitprop while the coup was going on.

Way to change the fucking subject of the thread, jackhole.

Anytime.

[Adrian Laguna]

Excuse me, but didn't one of the managers of RCTV admit to participating in the coup, or? I'm not sure if that's so.

I can't tell you for sure, but as far as I know that's not true.

Just dishonest reporting about who was shooting whom -while army officers were trying to abduct Chavez. If several Army officers were in the middle of overthrowing Bush and a TV network was aiding and abetting by running bullshit newscasts of "Bush's supporters open fire on peaceful crowd!", at best they are accessories after the fact and that station would deserve to be taken off the air. And rightfully so. Free speech doesn't include goading someone who is in the middle of committing a crime to continue. Last time I checked, treason was a serious crime.

Congratulations, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. The whole boogaboo about who was gunning down peaceful protesters in the streets was in the morning and afternoon. The coup was in the evening.

You can bet your ass that when Chavez was overthrown it was all over the news. If you're complaining about them not reporting the events happening the very moment Chavez was informed he was no longer President, then that's bullshit because nobody was. The coup was very swift and efficient, by the time anybody knew what was happening Chavez was in custody and the military ready to start releasing official statements.

If you had bothered to read, asshole I pointed out that if anything, what Chavez did is much more justifiable if that station really was broadcasting pro-overthrow agitprop while the coup was going on.

But they weren't, as I said above. The fact of the matter is that I know people who were there and saw it all, my father was at the march and saw people get shot. Even that's not much of an advantage because you can research this over the internet, which you obviously haven't even bothered to do.

[wolveraptor]

Sex is politics. -Gore Vidal

A schnazzy quote, but one that demonstrates nothing on its own.

[K. A. Pital]

I can't tell you for sure, but as far as I know that's not true

Never trust wikipedia, but there you go.

The government claims were supported at the time by the official statement of Andres Izarra, a former Production Manager of RCTV who later became Chavez's Minister of Communications.

And

RCTV's participation was so extensive that its production manager, Andrés Izarra, who opposed the coup, immediately resigned so as not to become an accomplice.

I don't know if we can trust Izarra, but why would a production manager resign for no reason?

Also the false report about "Chavez troops shooting the crowds" was used by the military as justification for it's actions, wasn't it?

[Lord Zentei]

I can't tell you for sure, but as far as I know that's not true

Never trust wikipedia, but there you go.

Which article is this? Linka?

Also the false report about "Chavez troops shooting the crowds" was used by the military as justification for it's actions, wasn't it?

This does not automatically implicate the TV station (nor would they have held back without it). As for why he would resign: political reasons? That the TV station was rooting for the coup doesn't mean they were conspirators.

Nor, incidentally does it justify going beyond nailing the editorial staff when said TV station is the only not-pro-government national TV station.

[K. A. Pital]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCTV#2002_ ... 7.C3.A9tat

Nor, incidentally does it justify going beyond nailing the editorial staff when said TV station is the only not-pro-government national TV station.

I agree, although I don't believe RCTV is the only one. How about Venevision?

[Adrian Laguna]

The government claims were supported at the time by the official statement of Andres Izarra, a former Production Manager of RCTV who later became Chavez's Minister of Communications.

And

RCTV's participation was so extensive that its production manager, Andrés Izarra, who opposed the coup, immediately resigned so as not to become an accomplice.

I don't know if we can trust Izarra, but why would a production manager resign for no reason?

That he became Chavez's anything would suggest Izarra is not a particularly trustworthy source when it comes to talking about parties opposed to Chavez.

Also the false report about "Chavez troops shooting the crowds" was used by the military as justification for it's actions, wasn't it?

I believe that the real shooters (likely just hired thugs) were placed by opposition leaders and told to shoot on their own marchers to engineer justification, and possibly to shoot on both marches to try to spark a confrontation. This is supported by the fact that the first broadcast of opposition leaders and supporting military leaders condemning the acts. They had a certain journalist who had left the country early on the morning of April 11th, before the acts even happened. Another broadcast was subsequently released that did not contain the jouranlist, indicating the noticed the fuck-up and tryed to fix it hoping nobody would notice.

This, however, does not prove that RCTV was in on it. The coupists really didn't have to do anything to get RCTV to spin whatever footage they got into making Chavez look bad. If it was planned before hand then it's likely the coup would have happened even if RCTV had randomly burned down on April 10th. Especially because it was not the only station twisting the facts.

The above is word of mouth from my father, but even if he wasn't blood kin I would say that man is one of the most trust worthy sources I know. The guy has no tolerance for bullshit, and is very good at smelling it even from a distance.

Nor, incidentally does it justify going beyond nailing the editorial staff when said TV station is the only not-pro-government national TV station.

I agree, although I don't believe RCTV is the only one. How about Venevision?

Venevision was one of the stations which engaged in dishonest reporting on April 11th. They, like RCTV, also partially defied Chavez's "cadena" (hijacking every local TV station so you're forced to see his face making a speech, unless you have cable) by splitting the screen. I would argue their involvement in the coup was the same as RCTV's.

Nowadays Venevision saw the writing on the wall and started to kiss Chavez's ass. They didn't even report the marches in protest of RCTV's shutdown.

[K. A. Pital]

That he became Chavez's anything would suggest Izarra is not a particularly trustworthy source when it comes to talking about parties opposed to Chavez.

This argument is viable, I agree. People who defect from their previous political allegiance can't be particulary trustworthy. On the other hand, sometimes they can give valuable insider information.

[Macunaima]

Some parts of the RCTV are still up and running: El Observador, brought to you by YouTube.

[Jadeite]

As far as I know, Venezuela has been mostly trying to import military aircraft, and what they've been trying to import has been Russian. It makes sense that they're trying to get rid of whatever NATO stuff they might have, though. Russia will sell them the replacement parts they need to keep their aircraft maintained. America sure as hell won't. Not with the current US-Venezuela relations, anyway.

Besides the fact that US/Venezuelan relations are pretty chilly, I bet part of this is also because aircraft and equipment bought from the US tends to involve US training of the personnel who will fly and maintain them, and who could be considered "American sympathizers".