Cindy Sheehan Quits, Blames Democrats

[Glocksman]

On the one hand, it's good that Coyote can see when the evidence is stacking up against him. On the other hand, it's still disturbing that despite having jumped off the Bush bandwagon, he still has a lot of Republitard in him. His diatribes against Cindy Sheehan stank of the same "normal America vs crazy anti-American hippie/commie/flowerchild freak" mentality that Karl Rove has taken advantage of all throughout his political career.

That mentality does exist though, and it predates Rove.
IMHO, it came into wide use with Nixon's 1968 and 1972 campaigns, especially his 'silent majority' bit during the 72 race, where he succeeded in painting McGovern as a far left flower child who was a creature of his party's extremist wing that'd surrender to the Russians as soon as Brezhnev said 'boo'.
Since then, every Repub has tried it out on the Democrats with varying degrees of success.

If I were a Democrat, I'd be looking at some political ju-jitsu and try to do the same thing to the Repubs WRT their extremist wing.

[Coyote]

On the one hand, it's good that Coyote can see when the evidence is stacking up against him.

Actually, it was my claim that Ann Coulter had been discredited. In book sales, she remains popular. As I mentioned to Elfy, there's no quantifiable 'evidence' that Sheehan's antics changed anyone's minds over and above the numerous scandals & bungles of the Administration. You yourself said it was the length of time the war dragged on-- no credit to Sheehan.

On the other hand, it's still disturbing that despite having jumped off the Bush bandwagon, he still has a lot of Republitard in him.

I began to wonder about the flavor of the Kool-Aide as the Iraq War started, but when it at first appeared successful I ignored it. Then the lack of authority in the postwar looting phase got me suspicious again. By the time Katrina hit I knew the Adminstration reeked of almonds. So yeah, I'm in the recent convert phase since returning from Iraq in 2005.

The difference is, IMO, I'm not going to partake of the other Kool-Aide, either. Sheehan's done nothing praiseworthy; for example it's well known I'm pro-gun, but I also don't appreciate other pro-gun rights people who play into the stereotype of the wife-beating redneck who wants to "go shewt mahsef somma dem ho-mos". Being identified with that type is not helpful. The anti-Iraq-war/anti-Bush movement has facts & evidence on it's side, and the jesters trying to relive Woodstock dilute this by pouring fuel on the fires of the critics by being that very stereotype.

... His diatribes against Cindy Sheehan stank of the same "normal America vs crazy anti-American hippie/commie/flowerchild freak" mentality that Karl Rove has taken advantage of all throughout his political career.

Actually, I've always thought that placard waving, bullhorn-shouting tie-dye types were whackaloons, even before Bush or Rove or anyone else rode that to the bank. My thoughts on Sheehan are not new or formed from neocon charicatures, they existed well before the phrase 'neocon' had even been coined.

The time is coming soon where, undoubtedly, someone like Time or Newsweek will conduct a survey to ask "what made you change your mind about Iraq/Bush/whatever" and I'll be interested in seeing how much of it was actually a result of the protest marches and stuff like that, even where Sheehan herself wasn't involved. If it turns out that protest marches played an instrumental part in changing attitudes, not only will I gladly revisit this topic and concede, I'll go out and participate in a march myself. But I have a suspicious feeling that placards & chants played a minor role in it and that far more compelling issues were the real moneymaker.

[Darth Wong]

You yourself said it was the length of time the war dragged on-- no credit to Sheehan.

Indeed. But the point I was making is that this is not an indictment of Sheehan or her methods, as you claim it to be. There were no methods that anyone could have employed in order to change peoples' minds. The fact is that no matter how you put it, it was simply impossible to articulate an anti-Bush, anti-war platform at that time in the nation's history and not be labeled a "shrill", "anti-American" hippie fanatic. People judged the message based on its conclusion, not based on the method used to get there. The most carefully reasoned anti-war arguments were lumped into the same boat as the most poorly articulated rants.

[Death from the Sea]

I see people saying that Sheehan did alot of good.... what did she accomplish? as far as I can tell, she did nothing but ruin herself....

[K. A. Pital]

The most carefully reasoned anti-war arguments were lumped into the same boat as the most poorly articulated rants.

Indeed. The meek "you know, this war is wrong for A, B and C" wasn't even heard. It took a person whose relatives died there to actually get some media attention. And even then it didn't help.

It's a false assumption that there were a lot of reasonable people who wanted to become anti-war but just waited for the moment.

There were those who already realized that they've been mistaken, those who knew this from the start and the Bush cheer squad. Only the opinion of the latter mattered.

[Edi]

This board is a fairly liberal place by any measure, and even here it was a fucking uphill slog against all sorts of abuse when you tried to voice reasoned arguments in opposition to the war a few years ago, though that has since changed. Out there with the idiot hordes, little has changed when the apologist fucktards come out of the woodwork, because so many of those who were duped back then simply ignore it and keep their mouths shut. Almost looks like they are wishing it would all go away so they don't need to admit to their earlier mistakes.

A few months ago, an old American friend of mine whom I had last seen 18 years ago came for a visit Finland and I went to dinner with him and his wife. All sorts of topics came up, including the Iraq situation and how it has contributed to foreigners viewing Americans and, liberla though he was, he could not admit that the US had fucked up with the war and how the American people were not responsible for it despite twice electing the current Commander-of-Chimps to the office of POTUS. I decided to bite my tongue, but I was tempted to let them know my true opinion of THAT line of argument.

[Darth Wong]

I see people saying that Sheehan did alot of good.... what did she accomplish? as far as I can tell, she did nothing but ruin herself....

For the umpteenth fucking time, her inability to sway the American People was the fault of the American People, not her. People tried every method from reasoned argument to 60s-style protests and they all had the same effect, because the American People chose to stick their collective fingers in their ears. No one has responded to this point. Coyote has not even acknowledged that it exists, preferring to pretend that I was falsely saying she made an enormous impact when I never said anything of the sort.

[Invictus ChiKen]

For the umpteenth fucking time, her inability to sway the American People was the fault of the American People, not her. People tried every method from reasoned argument to 60s-style protests and they all had the same effect, because the American People chose to stick their collective fingers in their ears. No one has responded to this point. Coyote has not even acknowledged that it exists, preferring to pretend that I was falsely saying she made an enormous impact when I never said anything of the sort.

The reason they blame her is simple. No one, but NO one wants to own up to the fact they could have done alot more. I admit it, I could have doen alot more.

Honestly if everyone that opposed the war did half of what she did things would have changed. They didn't so now instead of taking responsibility they blame someone else so they can feel good about themselves.

[Death from the Sea]

actually DW, my question wasn't aimed at you... the bolded part is where my question comes from... although there are several others that are saying things that infer the same statement, I think anyway...

I have a question. Why are criticisms of Cindy Sheehan either violent or patronizing?

Kristinn Taylor and Coyote both assumed that she was manipulated by leftists (as in, too stupid to make her own decisions). Sea Skimmer and Lonestar both simply said that she was crazy. Why can't anyone ever simply disagree with her?

Christ, I don't agree with everything she's ever said, and I don't think she's a saint. But, I have a hell of a lot of respect for anyone who puts everything on the line for a good cause. She's done a lot more good than any of us, and at the very least she's earned respect for the sheer amount of petty bullshit she's stood up to. The only "offensive" thing she ever said is what many of us have been saying to ourselves and to each other on this message board: the war is wrong and we should pull out. She just had the will to take it public and endure the slings and arrows of those who spin dissent as weakness and treason.

She wants a rest? She's earned it. I'm not criticizing her for that, considering that my only real dissent has been from the safety of my computer.

I am glad that Ms. Sheehan is stepping down for her own sake, because she has apparently lost alot while protesting. Plus even though it has been a while since I have seen her on the news, I will be honest, I was very sick of hearing about her when she started camping out in Crawford near Bush's ranch, with the endless media coverage, but that is more the media's fault because they couldn't find anything new to cover.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Lo! I have returned from the Den of Lions for another day, now to deal with the overzealous kittens...

18, you're funny. You keep going on abut how "you don't care" and "it doesn't matter" if I'm a "conservative" or a "neocon" or whatever, but as soon as you realize I disagree with you about Cindy Sheehan, you're like a screeching banshee: "Neocon! SHREEEEEK! Conservative! SHREEEEK!" Next you'll be holding your fingers up like a cross and doing the stage-hiss thing.

Blah, blah, blah. I'm not the one tossing out neocon talking points retard. If you dont want to look like one, dont act like one. If you're so angry about it then stop saying stupid shit i've heard from a billion other (if slightly less eloquent) Far Right talk radio "personalities" and "blogs" over the years. But you know what else i dont care about, i dont give a fuck how offended you are about me calling your bullshit. Dont want to be called one? Fine i can understand that, who wants to be associated with them. Try not acting like one. Or like i said, maybe you ARE one and you're trying some retarded attempt at "stealth". LOLZ I ar ninja!!!

I really DONT care. If you are one, fuck you, you people are destroying the country. If you're not but you just believe their shit, fuck you, get your own opinions.

You clearly haven't paid attention to a thing I posted here, only the things that conveniently allow yourself to do the point'n'shriek. Anyone who isn't worshipping at the altar of Cindy Sheehan is an eeeeeevil neocon conservative Bushite Republidrone.

Again, dont want to be called one? Dont act like one.

I don't respect Sheehan and I think her chosen means of protest, like some sixties march, doesn't work. Not in modern America. The Right has made sure that anyone who meets them on the field of battle like that is seen as just a pot-smoking layabout, with no serious or coherent message.

So you agree the Right is made up of lying fuckers who distort facts and use Appeal to Motive fallacies? Good, we've found common ground.

Sheehan choses a form of communication that is guaranteed to be tuned out. That is not 'heroic', that is shooting oneself in the foot.

Better than being a "heroic" bitch who plays at politics like it's a fucking high school debate team. She chose a POSITION not a form of communication, that was doomed to fail. Because people were fixated on sucking Bush off back at the beginning of the war. If she had done the same things but had been pro-war, i fucking KNOW the Right would have been the first to enshrine her. The only thing she did wrong was dare to speak out against an unjust war.

But, hey, I'm just a Republican Borg drone or something, eh? And I am known for my constant, unwavering support all the shrieking loony Rightists in the USA like Coulter, Limbaugh, etc. the same way you mindlessly cover for Sheehan.

You know what, i dont give a damn what you THINK you are, you're a fucking Republiclone because you ACT LIKE ONE. You have not said one original thing this whole debate. Not one. You just repeated the shit they said in a way that betrays more education and ability to use coherent sentence structure than normally seen amongst Right Wing bloggers and minions. All that does is tell me you're either honestly with these people or to stupid to think for yourself. You're constant attempts to throw my own political opinions, which are no secret, in my face do nothing but show you to be a fucking coward with no position of his own. If you ever get a fucking clue and have an original thought on the subject, feel free to let us know.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The reason they blame her is simple. No one, but NO one wants to own up to the fact they could have done alot more. I admit it, I could have doen alot more.

Honestly if everyone that opposed the war did half of what she did things would have changed. They didn't so now instead of taking responsibility they blame someone else so they can feel good about themselves.

Damn straight. People dont want to admit that, yes it's possible, our system FAILED. A complete sociopath was elected because of this system, and the climate the Right has set up where anyone who speaks out against the government is tarred and feathered as a "loony placard holding hippie", as if protesting something unjust is supposed to be bad now. No one wants to admit that we, as a people, failed to act when we could have, so we make up scapegoats, phantom enemies, and false reasons for why we failed instead of looking in the mirror.

[Coyote]

Goddamn, 18, I had to duck from the flying spittle. Is that from "Conspiracy Weekly" or do you get some talking points emailed to you?

[Invictus ChiKen]

Goddamn, 18, I had to duck from the flying spittle. Is that from "Conspiracy Weekly" or do you get some talking points emailed to you?

Quack, quack, quack.

[Coyote]

Goddamn, 18, I had to duck from the flying spittle. Is that from "Conspiracy Weekly" or do you get some talking points emailed to you?

Quack, quack, quack.

Squeee!

[Invictus ChiKen]

You sir. Are dethpicable!

LOL. Okay so now we know what you do in your spare time I still hold that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck. It bust be a duck!

Or in this case a neocon.

[Coyote]

Apparantly, that is all you and your redneck buddy are capable of thinking of, so I guess we'll just have to expect no more of you. That's right-- because I won't crawl on my hands and knees naked for seven miles to masturbate in the shadow of Cindy Sheehan, I must be a Bushite neocon. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

[Coyote]

verdammt double post!

[Invictus ChiKen]

So just because I'm from a small southern town I am a redneck?

[Coyote]

So just because I'm from a small southern town I am a redneck?

I dunno, are you? Just because I think Sheehan wasted her time makes me a neocon?

[Invictus ChiKen]

Well it's more to do with the fact you sound like an unending series of neocon talking points really...

[Anguirus]

I see people saying that Sheehan did alot of good.... what did she accomplish? as far as I can tell, she did nothing but ruin herself....

She got the message out. The very fact that she got as much coverage as she did, never mind whether it was positive or not, showed people that not everyone was marching in lockstep over the war. Which has always been true, but the people in power cultivated that image, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Cindy Sheehan may not have saved any lives, but I consider her shaking things up a very good thing.

[Elfdart]

I see people saying that Sheehan did alot of good.... what did she accomplish? as far as I can tell, she did nothing but ruin herself....

What did Rosa Parks accomplish by herself?

Sheehan got an anti-war message in the media when being anti-war got you fired(Phil Donahue, Bill Maher, Ashley Banfield, Robert Scheer) -and still does (just ask Rosie O'Donnell)- and barred from the airwaves. The media did its damndest to keep anti-war views off radio, TV, and out of print. In fact, the only time one would hear anti-war opinions would be in news stories like this:

Yesterday, [insert name of celebrity] said the war in Iraq was wrong. Why does [he/she] hate America so much?

Because of her doggedness, a slow news month and most importantly, the war whores showing their true colors as the semen-crusted losers they really are, Cindy Sheehan managed to get in few words edgewise against the war. She succeeded because she wasn't a Damn Dirty Hippie or movie star or pop singer, but a middle-aged church lady who lost a son.

Of course that didn't stop war whores from smearing her anyway.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Apparantly, that is all you and your redneck buddy are capable of thinking of, so I guess we'll just have to expect no more of you. That's right-- because I won't crawl on my hands and knees naked for seven miles to masturbate in the shadow of Cindy Sheehan, I must be a Bushite neocon. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

How on Earth you think i'm a redneck i'll never know. And no it's not the same thing as me saying you're a Neocon by Proxy because you sound like one, because i've said nothing LIKE a redneck.

I dont know where you get off saying i worship Cindy Sheehan. I'd love to see where i said that. All i said is that i respect her. You dont have to respect her or even like her, but i dont appreciate you throwing around insults and claims at her without evidence. And what per say do you mean exactly by "hippie"? What is supposed to be so bad about being a hippie anyway, as if that meant anything at all. It is, again, a common Conservitive tactic to call someone a "liberal extremist", a "hippie" or "communist/socialist" when they have no actual argument.

Look this is probably my last post on the subject. I have no problem discussing the issue all day, i got time to burn. But i'm not going to stand here screaming at your Wall of Ignorance all day, while taking shit with your constant red herrings, one liners and Appeals to Motive. As if i should be ashamed i'm unappologetically angry.

If everyone in this country were unappologetically angry, if half the peopel who voted for Bush would be, then the world would be a better place. They'd drag that piece of shit out of his palace and show him the Green Zone first hand, show him what he did, the death and destruction he caused. But they arent. If Cindy Sheehan's critics can do nothing more than point out, with an air of anger and sarcasm, that she holds a sign and openly states her disgust at Bush's incompetence then they truly are an intellectually as well as morally bankrupt bunch. I think they've proven that in this thread.

Your constant insenuations that i somehow "worship" this woman are not only unfounded, but not even insulting. If the worse i can be accused of is showing pride in a person who speaks her mind and openly derides a man who deserves nothing but my contempt then i will gladly accept that "insult". But i dont worship her. I simply find that i agree with her stance. But i'm done arguing with Neocon spambots who just cut and paste sound bites and insults from Right Wing playbooks and then scream bloody murder when they're "mistaken" (as if) for being a neocon lapdog. If you arent, then i'm sorry they've indoctrinated you so completely. If you are, my stance on those useless fuckers is no secret so i dont think i need to explain my feelings.

Now if you excuse me, i've got to go huga tree and shake hands with fruits cause i'm a dirty hippie leftist pinko socialist and thats what we do when we're not watching Michael Moore movie marathons.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Umm 18 he's calling me the Redneck.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Actually i believe "You and your redneck buddy" was meant to refer to you and, generally, anyone else who was against his position.