More Shep weapon wankery

[Vympel]

In that case then, let me lend some tank-fu and say that the M60A3 would've been outclassed against late Cold War Soviet tanks (ie. the T-64B, T-80B, T-72B and T-80U), with only the M60A3TTS having an FCS advantage due to a thermal imager (that was, until the M1A2SEP, completely superior to the TI used on the M1 series ...)

Stay tuned for a completely gratuitous T-72B picture.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I love the way I asked Shep for an example of a foreign policy setback suffered by the US as a result of not having B1 bombers, and he replied that they didn't have enough bombers

Massively larger air force = much more political influence + pressure to get some use out of the hugely expensive investment = more likely to resort to blowing stuff up = win, from Shep's point of view.

I think Shep just enjoys the image of bombers doing carpet bombing runs with nukes. Pure carnage.

[Darth Raptor]

I thought the idea of US/USSR competition destroying the USSR was more about other projects, like the space program etc.

The Soviet Union's collapse was completely political and entirely self-inflicted. Going back and researching that period ('cause I was too young to clearly remember it), I was amazed at how external factors had almost nothing to do with the USSR's dissolution. So no, Reagon did not in fact glower them into submission.

[Vympel]

It was a long time coming. Reagan just had the good fortune to be in power when thing's came to a head. Conservatives have been living off that Reagan bullshit ever since, they've certainly done nothing noteworthy since him.

[Stark]

The Soviet Union's collapse was completely political and entirely self-inflicted. Going back and researching that period ('cause I was too young to clearly remember it), I was amazed at how external factors had almost nothing to do with the USSR's dissolution. So no, Reagon did not in fact glower them into submission.

I'm aware of this: I was noting that I'd never heard the 'lol bombers lol missiles' story, only the 'it was our awesome space program' one. The USSR was in trouble way before Reagan showed up.

[PainRack]

More powerful air Force > Soviets are forced to spend what little remains in their Treasury attempting to counter > USSR collapses quite abit sooner as a result

That the Soviets were spent into oblivion by the US (particularly as a result of the Reagan build-up) is one of the enduring myths of the Cold War. And it's just that, a myth. Soviet defence spending was flat in the relevant period. They did not react at all to Reagan's arms buildup by splurging more money. It's just not so.

No no no. Don't you get it? The Soviets wanted to disarm but they couldn't, because of the American build up! So they were forced to keep researching tanks, stealth submarines armed with SAMs and thought-controlled interceptors! Not to mention sharks fitted with freaking lasers!

And that's why they're such a threat to the world. Because they absolutely refuse to disarm and kept researching and building more weapons!

[PainRack]

I thought the idea of US/USSR competition destroying the USSR was more about other projects, like the space program etc.

The Soviet Union's collapse was completely political and entirely self-inflicted. Going back and researching that period ('cause I was too young to clearly remember it), I was amazed at how external factors had almost nothing to do with the USSR's dissolution. So no, Reagon did not in fact glower them into submission.

What about the point that glasnot and other political reforms was forced because of the ineveitable comparisons with the West?

[Darth Raptor]

What about the point that glasnot and other political reforms was forced because of the ineveitable comparisons with the West?

That's debatable. One could just as easily make the claim that glasnost was a return to a more pure, pre-Stalin strain of democratic socialism. Although you're right to point out that as much as they tried, the USSR did not exist in a perfectly isolated bubble, the average Soviet citizen's knowledge of life in the West was still mostly limited to what they were told by the authorities.

[thejester]

And then Jimmah completely fucked up the execution of his own doctrine in April of 1980. I won't go and blame Desert One on him; because we had serious problems with how we were going to plan and execute that doctrine; but his response to the failure of Desert One was to do nothing at all; there was no plan B which was "okay, the special forces guys have failed, we're going to invade and kick Iran's ass now."

It's the same reaction that pissed off a lot of Americans 13 years later when Clinton decided to withdraw US troops after the battle of Mogadishu instead of going and maiming wholesale the leaders and forces stupid enough to attack US troops.

Did you actually read the doctrine? Iran is not an 'outside force' and in 1980 they weren't going to control the Persian Gulf. More to the point, how was the United States going to invade Iran in 1980? The RDF was a joke and public opinion was screaming 'no more Vietnams.' Even if Jimmy had wanted to, he couldn't have.

[Elfdart]

Especially considering that just a few years earlier, a number of enlisted men in the Army were killing their own officers.