1 in 4 young adult American Muslims support suicide bombings

[fgalkin]

I have no idea what ethical system I'm using.

So, you admit to having no idea what you're talking about.

I'm approaching this from the position that torture is wrong and that if it's unacceptable to torture terrorists, then it's unacceptable to torture convicted criminals. I don't see how brutalizing people for any amount of time is an effective way of making them decent members of society.

Now, see, this is where you don't get it. WE'RE ALREADY TORTURING OUR CRIMINALS by putting them into an environment where they are abused and brutalized, and by isolating them from their friends and loved ones for decades. Would you consider being put into Soviet gulags to be "torture?" Because our prisons, at their worst, are not much better.

That part is not disputed by anyone here save you. What we're discussing here is whether short-term brutality is better than long-term one.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Flagg]

I have no idea what ethical system I'm using.

So, you admit to having no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, when it comes to categorizing ethical systems, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm approaching this from the position that torture is wrong and that if it's unacceptable to torture terrorists, then it's unacceptable to torture convicted criminals. I don't see how brutalizing people for any amount of time is an effective way of making them decent members of society.

Now, see, this is where you don't get it. WE'RE ALREADY TORTURING OUR CRIMINALS by putting them into an environment where they are abused and brutalized, and by isolating them from their friends and loved ones for decades. Would you consider being put into Soviet gulags to be "torture?" Because our prisons, at their worst, are not much better.

That part is not disputed by anyone here save you. What we're discussing here is whether short-term brutality is better than long-term one.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

And that's where I got mixed up on this. I was approaching this from the idea that we were talking about corporal punishment as being more ideal than a reformed prison environment, rather than our current system. So I conceed that an agony booth wouldn't be any worse than what we have now, despite its barbarity.

[Gil Hamilton]

Incidently, to those who think that corporal punishment would necessarily involve brutality and turning people into psycho monsters, I'd like to offer a counter example in the city/state of Singapore. They, in fact, use corporal punishment for many offenses, even minor ones. For example, recall a while ago that American tourist who was caught graphetting in Singapore and was sentenced to be caned (which caused an international dispute when the US intervened on his behalf of his ass, but I recall he got a few strokes anyway).

Singapore's legal system can be argued as very harsh, but also it stands as an example of a modern society which uses corporal punishment without horribly disastrous results. Admittedly, you hear some pretty gruesome depictions of caning from Singapore and that does leave scars. Flogging does as well, though I'm certain the damage caused by flogging can be reduced by the type of lash used.

Yeah, after a flogging or caning you are going to have trouble sitting down and laying for a couple weeks. Even so, I still think that it's better to give someone a half dozen lashes for alot of offenses and then turning them loose under the watchful eye of a probation officer is preferable to sending them to jail, even for a few months.

Singapore's theory on it is interesting. There is no culture or group that can glorify being caned. You can't build a culture around it or brag about it. Caning is humiliating and people who face it sincerely fear it. There is no prison culture or glory to it. They also view the stripes caning produces as a lesson for criminals to take away from the experience, along with that criminals can't really sit down for days afterwards. While punishment isn't a deterrent all the time or even often, but it certainly teaches a lesson for sure.

[jegs2]

Singapore's theory on it is interesting. There is no culture or group that can glorify being caned. You can't build a culture around it or brag about it. Caning is humiliating and people who face it sincerely fear it. There is no prison culture or glory to it. They also view the stripes caning produces as a lesson for criminals to take away from the experience, along with that criminals can't really sit down for days afterwards. While punishment isn't a deterrent all the time or even often, but it certainly teaches a lesson for sure.

I'm with you. Stupidity should be painful.

[Darth Wong]

The intellectual hurdle to get over here is the notion that we must continue with the prison system as-is. If one accepts that it fundamentally is not working, then alternatives become more acceptable.

[PainRack]

Incidently, to those who think that corporal punishment would necessarily involve brutality and turning people into psycho monsters, I'd like to offer a counter example in the city/state of Singapore. They, in fact, use corporal punishment for many offenses, even minor ones. For example, recall a while ago that American tourist who was caught graphetting in Singapore and was sentenced to be caned (which caused an international dispute when the US intervened on his behalf of his ass, but I recall he got a few strokes anyway).

There's a story behind that......... Let's simplify it as public mischief doesn't get caning, but vandalism does, and the lawyer or the mother has to be the most incompetent fool ever.

Yeah, after a flogging or caning you are going to have trouble sitting down and laying for a couple weeks. Even so, I still think that it's better to give someone a half dozen lashes for alot of offenses and then turning them loose under the watchful eye of a probation officer is preferable to sending them to jail, even for a few months.

Considering that caning is only applicable for violent offences(with vandalism being the sole exception), this benefit doesn't really accrue.

Its arguable whether the benefits of corporeal punishment has actually acted as a deterence, considering how effective Singapore law enforcement has been.