Political crisis in Ukraine

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Political crisis in Ukraine

Post by Vympel »

Link
Ukraine leaders spar over troops

Ukraine's president has met his rival, PM Viktor Yanukovych, as a bitter power struggle between the two men sent the country deeper into political crisis.

The PM said earlier President Viktor Yushchenko's bid to take control of 40,000 interior ministry troops meant a "use of force scenario" had begun.

The two leaders have been locked in their power struggle for months.

The EU has urged both parties to settle the deepening crisis though negotiation and not resort to violence.

They held three hours of talks, described by the president's spokeswoman as "constructive".

Irina Vannikova said the talks, which also included opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, parliament speaker Olexander Moroz and Security Council head Ivan Plyushch, would resume at midday (0900 GMT) on Saturday.

The row over control of the interior ministry special troops comes a day after riot police - acting in defiance of the president - seized the offices of sacked prosecutor general Svyatoslav Piskun.

They were acting on orders issued by Interior Minister Vasyl Tsushko - an ally of Mr Yanukovych - after President Yushchenko sacked Mr Piskun.

Long-running row

The crisis has been deepening since April, when Mr Yushchenko dissolved parliament and called a snap election. Mr Yanukovych and his governing coalition had initially rejected the move but later agreed in principle with the president to hold early elections.

The president originally said the vote would be held in May, but later moved the date back to 24 June after thousands of protesters from both sides took to the streets.

Speaking to a cabinet meeting, the prime minister denounced Mr Yushchenko's attempt to wrest control of the 40,000-strong force.

"Taking such decisions without consulting the government is inadmissible," he said.

"I think this seriously aggravates the situation."

Mr Yanukovych said the presidential decree had violated constitutional provisions placing the troops under the government's control. Mr Yushchenko is head of the army.

"What does all this mean?" he asked.

"This means that the 'use of force scenario', which we have been discussing constantly, has begun."

'Junta'

Interior Minister Mr Tsushko said he would ensure order, but accused the president and his supporters of driving Ukraine towards civil war.

"It is a part of the president's entourage, whom I call the junta, which is pushing us towards civil war," he told Ukrainian TV.

"This is terrible, because we all want a peaceful life."

The BBC's Steven Eke says the language is ominous, but it remains to be seen whether it is more about posturing, than any real possibility of unrest.

Until now, our correspondent says, the political crisis has been played out in the courts and largely unproductive parliamentary wrangling.

The European Union issued an appeal "to all those with political responsibility to distance themselves from action which could result in any further escalation of the dispute, and in particular the use of armed security forces".

'Attempted coup'

Mr Yushchenko had dismissed Mr Piskun for refusing to give up his seat in parliament, as required by law.

But the prosecutor general said he was sacked because he had resisted a presidential order to take action against three Constitutional Court judges.

The judges had refused to step down after being dismissed by President Yushchenko earlier in April.

Mr Tsushko described the sacking as "an attempted coup".

Mr Yanukovych and his supporters had opposed Mr Yushchenko's call for elections when he dissolved parliament in April.

The president had accused the prime minister of trying to usurp his power by illegally luring pro-Western lawmakers over to his coalition to increase his parliamentary majority.

The pair have been bitter rivals since Mr Yushchenko successfully overturned a disputed presidential election result in 2004, after mobilising thousands of supporters in central Kiev to protest against Mr Yanukovych's claim of victory.
Ahh, the glories of the "orange revolution". So the President is head of the army, and now he's trying to take over the Interior Ministry troops. Hmm.

Methinks this could get ugly.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

For us in Russia this is just another re-run of 1993. Me thinks, the result can be the same.

The crisis has been going on for months though.

It started with Yushenko trying to disband the Parliament, which was then thought to be unconstitutional and placed into the Constitutional Court of Ukraine - which eventually ceased operating after several judges have been sacked by Yuschenko, on the grounds that "the decision to disband and re-elect the parliament has been already decided on consensus" or some other bullshit.

We Russians knew it would eventually come to this, for us it's nothing but a bad deja vu. I pity the Ukrainians though, their country is being thrown around from thug to thug.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Wait, what? A Prime Minister AND a President?
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Darth Raptor
Red Mage
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2003-12-18 03:39am

Post by Darth Raptor »

General Schatten wrote:Wait, what? A Prime Minister AND a President?
Most modern republics have that setup, Schatten. The US is actually in the minority with having the head of state and chief executive being the same person. Usually the premier is the leader of the ruling party of parliament. So if we lived under such a system, our premier would be either Harry Reed or Nancy Pelosi (having a bicameral legislature complicates things like that).
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Hm so the Orange Revolution was bullshit. I felt terrible for his pockmarked face, but I saw a documentary about the bloodless revolution and how it was all a grassroots movement spreading through the EU and I couldn't help but smell a stinker.

One of the disadvantages of introducing a new system into a foreign country is the traditions and precendents don't exist and people will look for ways to abuse it. It's inconceivable that the Governor General would oppose the Prime Minister in Westminister because the GG is the ceremonial head of the army and the PM has the will of the people. Different kinds of government work for countries with different histories. So how long has Ukraine been like this, and why isn't one of President/Prime Minister just a figurehead? I'm not a big fan of spiltting powers between two people so the government can tear itself apart post-election. I would think that if the PM has control of riot police and the President has control of the army in a former Soviet republic, the person with riot police has the short hand. If the opposition is able to hold Yuschenko off with an inferior force, maybe that means there are still cool heads.
User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Post by Bounty »

Armed forces disobey orders, march on Kiev

Breaking news, so this will be updated and expanded shortly:
BBC wrote:Several thousand interior ministry troops supporting Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko are moving towards the capital, Kiev, the ministry says.

The troops are obeying a commander loyal to Mr Yushchenko and defying orders from the ministry, it said.

The move comes as the president is locked in a power struggle with Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

The two are holding a second round of crisis talks in Kiev. Discussions on Friday ended with no agreement.
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Post by Kane Starkiller »

First of all it was Yanukovich who first sent police officers loyal to him to try and counter Yuschenko's decision. Only after that did Yuschenko decide to sent his own dogs of war.
Vympel wrote:Ahh, the glories of the "orange revolution". So the President is head of the army, and now he's trying to take over the Interior Ministry troops. Hmm.
Umm have you read the article you just posted in it's entirety? Let me quote more relevant parts:
Mr Yushchenko had dismissed Mr Piskun for refusing to give up his seat in parliament, as required by law.
State prosecutor AND member of the parliament? How nice.
Stas Bush wrote:It started with Yushenko trying to disband the Parliament, which was then thought to be unconstitutional and placed into the Constitutional Court of Ukraine - which eventually ceased operating after several judges have been sacked by Yuschenko, on the grounds that "the decision to disband and re-elect the parliament has been already decided on consensus" or some other bullshit.
No it started by Yanukovich trying to get support in the parliament to change the constitution to drastically reduce presidential powers. The guy was willing to toy with constitution just to deal with the political opposition and now he cries about that same constitution.
Yuschenko saw the writing on the wall and disbanded the parliament before they deal with him indirectly through constitution.
He already called for new elections and they will be held in late June IIRC and then we'll see if Yuschenko will respect the will of the people if the same parliament is elected.
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Post by Kane Starkiller »

And really. What the fuck is a guy who tried to rig the elections still doing in office?
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
User avatar
Mange
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4181
Joined: 2004-03-26 01:31pm
Location: Somewhere in the GFFA

Post by Mange »

Kane Starkiller wrote:And really. What the fuck is a guy who tried to rig the elections still doing in office?
Indeed. That is mindboggling. Kick him out of there.
User avatar
Chris OFarrell
Durandal's Bitch
Posts: 5724
Joined: 2002-08-02 07:57pm
Contact:

Post by Chris OFarrell »

It's a shame to see so much public hope for change for the better utterly betrayed by the person they had put their faith in.

But not in the slightest bit a surprising outcome.
Image
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

The question remains--will Russia intervene?

The Ukrainian is uniquely suited for division along ethnic lines as the Russian population is concentrated in a geographically unified region.

I'd love to know what the status of the Black Sea Fleet in Sebastopol is--and what the autonomous parliament of the Crimean is doing.

I've always thought that the Ukraine is the biggest chance for a civil war in a major industrial country out there, and if Yuschenko removes the Prime Minister and Government which serve to strongly represent the interests of the ethnic Russian population, they could well secede.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Chris OFarrell wrote:It's a shame to see so much public hope for change for the better utterly betrayed by the person they had put their faith in.
So the people vote for Yuschenko, elections results are rigged, population hits the streets, in new elections Yuschenko wins but Yanukovich (the same one in which favor the elections were rigged) stays in power and now tries to eliminate his powers through constitution change when he couldn't eliminate him through elections. Yuschenko fights back and he is "utterly betraying" the same people who gathered in the streets to support him?
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
User avatar
Kane Starkiller
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1510
Joined: 2005-01-21 01:39pm

Post by Kane Starkiller »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Ukrainian is uniquely suited for division along ethnic lines as the Russian population is concentrated in a geographically unified region.
According to this map which is admittedly from wikipedia Russians only have majority in Crimean peninsula.
But if the forces of evil should rise again, to cast a shadow on the heart of the city.
Call me. -Batman
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Kane Starkiller wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Ukrainian is uniquely suited for division along ethnic lines as the Russian population is concentrated in a geographically unified region.
According to this map which is admittedly from wikipedia Russians only have majority in Crimean peninsula.

The census figures don't tell the true story, because of the long-standing Russification policy in the region under the old Tsarist Empire. A large number of people who were nominally ethnically Ukrainian (and Ukrainian ethnicity is largely a constructed concept, anyway) nonetheless strongly identify with the Russian state for historical reasons, both in the Crimea and in the Donbass.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Update: the troops loyal to the rival leaders are facing off.
CNN wrote: Rival troops face off in Ukraine

POSTED: 7:40 p.m. EDT, May 26, 2007

• President summons soldiers, but Interior Ministry troops block their way
• Showdown grows out of power struggle between president, prime minister
• President tries to fire chief prosecutor, take control of Interior forces
• Prime minister heads parliament, which president dissolved in April

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- Ukraine's president summoned thousands of troops to the capital Saturday, but forces loyal to the nation's prime minister stopped them outside Kiev, escalating the two leaders' ongoing power struggle.

Tensions have grown since President Viktor Yushchenko ordered parliament disbanded in April, claiming Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych and his supporters were trying to usurp presidential power. This week, the president moved to fire the nation's chief prosecutor and take control of Interior Ministry troops, adding to the acrimony.

The ministry's 32,000 troops answer to the interior minister, a Yanukovych loyalist. Ivan Plyushch, the head of the national security council, said the president had ordered the troops to Kiev to forestall violence, though some feared it would have the opposite effect.

"Moving the Interior troops into the city is necessary to guarantee a calm life for the city, to prevent provocations," Plyushch was quoted on the presidential Web site.

The statement did not specify how many troops have been sent, but Nikolai Mishakin, deputy commander of the Interior troops, said on Ukrainian television that nearly 3,500 officers had been prevented from entering Kiev by forces loyal to Yanukovych. Mishakin promised his troops would not resort to violence since none of them had firearms.

AP Television News showed footage of several convoys of troops stopped on their way to Kiev from central and western provinces. Dozens of officers got out of the buses and waited patiently in a forest by a highway -- some lying on grass, others drinking water, smoking, chatting and appearing relaxed.

Yuri Ivakin, a senior official in the Kiev city administration loyal to Yanukovych, stopped two buses outside the capital. He told the AP that he would try to turn troops back to their bases. Ukrainian television later reported that the officers left the buses and marched toward Kiev.

The Western-leaning Yushchenko came to office in 2005 after the Orange Revolution protests and surviving poisoning that marred his face. His agenda, however, has been complicated by fighting among his supporters and the ongoing disputes with Russia-leaning Yanukovych.

As parties loyal to both sides warned Saturday of possible violence, Yanukovych and Yushchenko met again to try to defuse the crisis. Earlier meetings ended without visible progress.

Several hundred flag-waving supporters of both leaders held competing rallies in front of the presidential office, where Yushchenko and Yanukovych were meeting. A thin line of police separated the two camps of protesters.

Yushchenko dissolved parliament on April 2, but Yanukovych's supporters in parliament have defied the order, calling it unconstitutional.

Both leaders have agreed to respect the Constitutional Court's decision on the dissolution order, but the court has been deliberating on the matter for weeks. The hearings were complicated by Yushchenko's orders to fire several of its judges, including the chief judge.

Then, on Thursday, Yushchenko fired longtime foe Prosecutor General Svyatoslav Piskun -- a Yanukovych ally -- saying Piskun could not serve as the country's chief prosecutor while acting as a member of parliament.

Security officers were sent to oust Piskun, but riot police loyal to Yanukovych immediately moved to protect him, standing guard outside his office.

Piskun appealed to a Kiev district court and late Friday said the court ruled to reinstate him. The ruling could not be immediately confirmed, and a Yushchenko aide said Saturday that Piskun was lying.

Tensions further grew when Yushchenko claimed command of Interior Ministry troops -- an order rejected by the ministry headed by Vasyl Tsushko, a Yanukovych loyalist.

Yanukovych's allies called for calm and restraint, but warned they would not back down in the dispute. Tsushko promised not to use force, but his deputy, Mikhaylo Korniyenko, said the ministry would fend off any attempts to take it forcefully. "Let them try. We have what we need to respond," Korniyenko said.

Piskun lamented that "cannon fodder was being sent to Kiev," adding that he would not hesitate to fire officials who violate the law.

"As long as I'm prosecutor-general in this country, there will be no scenario involving force," he said.

Analysts said Yushchenko's move to send troops to Kiev was an attempt to pressure Yanukovych to agree on an early date for new parliamentary elections, rather than a sign he was preparing for violent confrontation.

"I think these maneuvers with security forces are meant to give the president a chance to maneuver at talks," said Vadim Karasyov, head of the Kiev-based Institute on Global Strategies.

Ukraine has suffered chronic political turmoil since Yushchenko came to office in 2005 after the Orange Revolution protests. The demonstrations broke out after Yanukovych was counted as winner of a fraud-plagued presidential ballot. The Supreme Court annulled that vote and Yushchenko won a rerun.

In the course of the race, Yushchenko was poisoned with dioxin, and the mystery of who did it, and why, has never been solved.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

So, Interior Ministry troops loyal to the Yanukovych government have stopped 3,500 troops from the western and central provinces (those which support Yuschenko) from entering the capitol? It sounds like Yuschenko must be afraid of the eastern and southern units mutinying if they're ordered to march on the capitol against Yanukovych. The Ukraine frankly sounds like it's an itchy trigger finger away from a civil war.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

That was my perception also. However, it seems that they have managed to head off the possibility of the situation spiraling out of control, at least for now:
CNN wrote: Crisis calmed: Ukraine to hold early election

POSTED: 10:03 p.m. EDT, May 26, 2007

• NEW: President, prime minister defuse political crisis
• NEW: September election slated for parliament, which president dissolved
• Rival troops had faced each other inside, outside capital city
• Nation still awaits ruling on constitutionality of president's actions

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- Ukraine's president and prime minister on Sunday agreed to hold an early parliamentary election on September 30, defusing a months-long political crisis that had threatened to escalate into violence.

"We found a decision, which is a compromise," President Viktor Yushchenko was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.

The two had reached a similar agreement in early May, but never ironed out the details and the crisis escalated.

Tensions between Yushchenko, who has sought to lead Ukraine into the European Union and NATO, and his rival, Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, who seeks to preserve Ukraine's close ties with Russia, have been building since the president ordered parliament disbanded in April and called new elections.

But the political struggle threatened to turn into a physical confrontation this week when Yushchenko ordered the dismissal of the nation's chief prosecutor, loyal to the prime minister, who refused to leave his office. Riot police surrounded the prosecutor's offices, preventing his eviction.

Yushchenko summoned thousands of troops to the capital Saturday, but forces loyal to Yanukovych stopped them outside Kiev.

The Interior Ministry's 32,000 troops answer to the interior minister, a Yanukovych loyalist. Ivan Plyushch, the head of the national security council, said the president had ordered the troops to Kiev to forestall violence, though some feared it would have the opposite effect.

"Moving the Interior troops into the city is necessary to guarantee a calm life for the city, to prevent provocations," Plyushch was quoted on the presidential Web site.

The statement did not specify how many troops have been sent, but Nikolai Mishakin, deputy commander of the Interior troops, said on Ukrainian television that nearly 3,500 officers had been prevented from entering Kiev by forces loyal to Yanukovych. Mishakin promised his troops would not resort to violence since none of them had firearms.

AP Television News showed footage of several convoys of troops stopped on their way to Kiev from central and western provinces. Dozens of officers got out of the buses and waited patiently in a forest by a highway -- some lying on grass, others drinking water, smoking, chatting and appearing relaxed.

Yuri Ivakin, a senior official in the Kiev city administration loyal to Yanukovych, stopped two buses outside the capital. He told the AP that he would try to turn troops back to their bases. Ukrainian television later reported that the officers left the buses and marched toward Kiev.

The Western-leaning Yushchenko came to office in 2005 after the Orange Revolution protests and surviving poisoning that marred his face. His agenda, however, has been complicated by fighting among his supporters and the ongoing disputes with Russia-leaning Yanukovych.

As parties loyal to both sides warned Saturday of possible violence, Yanukovych and Yushchenko met again and emerged after midnight with the agreement to hold early elections.

Several hundred flag-waving supporters of both leaders held competing rallies in front of the presidential office, where Yushchenko and Yanukovych were meeting. A thin line of police separated the two camps of demonstrators.

Dissolution of parliament sets off crisis

Yushchenko dissolved parliament on April 2, but Yanukovych's supporters in parliament have defied the order, calling it unconstitutional.

Both leaders have agreed to respect the Constitutional Court's decision on the dissolution order, but the court has been deliberating on the matter for weeks. The hearings were complicated by Yushchenko's orders to fire several of its judges, including the chief judge.

Then, on Thursday, Yushchenko fired longtime foe Prosecutor General Svyatoslav Piskun -- a Yanukovych ally -- saying Piskun could not serve as the country's chief prosecutor while acting as a member of parliament.

Security officers were sent to oust Piskun, but riot police loyal to Yanukovych immediately moved to protect him, standing guard outside his office.

Piskun appealed to a Kiev district court and late Friday said the court ruled to reinstate him. The ruling could not be immediately confirmed, and a Yushchenko aide said Saturday that Piskun was lying.

Tensions further grew when Yushchenko claimed command of Interior Ministry troops -- an order rejected by the ministry headed by Vasyl Tsushko, a Yanukovych loyalist.

Yanukovych's allies called for calm and restraint, but warned they would not back down in the dispute. Tsushko promised not to use force, but his deputy, Mikhaylo Korniyenko, said the ministry would fend off any attempts to take it forcefully. "Let them try. We have what we need to respond," Korniyenko said.

Piskun lamented that "cannon fodder was being sent to Kiev," adding that he would not hesitate to fire officials who violate the law.

"As long as I'm prosecutor-general in this country, there will be no scenario involving force," he said.

Analysts said Yushchenko's move to send troops to Kiev was an attempt to pressure Yanukovych to agree on an early date for new parliamentary elections, rather than a sign he was preparing for violent confrontation.

"I think these maneuvers with security forces are meant to give the president a chance to maneuver at talks," said Vadim Karasyov, head of the Kiev-based Institute on Global Strategies.

Ukraine has suffered chronic political turmoil since Yushchenko came to office in 2005 after the Orange Revolution protests. The demonstrations broke out after Yanukovych was counted as winner of a fraud-plagued presidential ballot. The Supreme Court annulled that vote and Yushchenko won a rerun.

In the course of the race, Yushchenko was poisoned with dioxin, and the mystery of who did it, and why, has never been solved.
It remains to be seen whether this compromise will hold (since they had made a similar descision previously), and whether the parliamentary elections will change the balance of power enough to prevent a repetition of the crisis.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I'm placing my bets more on a situation that the eastern half of Ukraine secede much like.. one other former Soviet Republic for which I keep forgetting the name...
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm placing my bets more on a situation that the eastern half of Ukraine secede much like.. one other former Soviet Republic for which I keep forgetting the name...
Moldova/Transdneistria? :?
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The question remains--will Russia intervene?

The Ukrainian is uniquely suited for division along ethnic lines as the Russian population is concentrated in a geographically unified region.

I'd love to know what the status of the Black Sea Fleet in Sebastopol is--and what the autonomous parliament of the Crimean is doing.

I've always thought that the Ukraine is the biggest chance for a civil war in a major industrial country out there, and if Yuschenko removes the Prime Minister and Government which serve to strongly represent the interests of the ethnic Russian population, they could well secede.

The last thing Russia is going to want is war with a nation which can still field a 250,000 man active duty military and which could make hundreds of additional miles of border unstable. They won’t intervene unless a civil war breaks out first. The Black Sea Fleet has very few operational ships these days
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Let me put it in the simplest possible terms. Ukraine now is fucked up. So genuinely fucked up that Russia IMHO has no wish to involve itself in the clusterfuck any longer. And Russians and Ukrainians are basically the same nation. The Eastern half of Ukraine is more russophilic, the Western half is more nationalistic. That's probably the only difference.

And both sides of this civil conflict are equally repugnant to me anyway. I can't support bandits, neither can I support ultranationalists.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

No it started by Yanukovich trying to get support in the parliament to change the constitution to drastically reduce presidential powers.
It was Yushenko who transformed Ukraine from a presidential republic to a parliamentary one. He doesn't have any rights to brag about "reducing presidential powers" as he was the initiator of the transition from presidential to parliamentary republic and thought to undo his own law initiative when he saw it was dangerous to him.

Sorry, if he doesn't like the Parliament, I guess he should've thought twice before initiating the parliamentary reform - which granted it the rights to defy the President. And he can't backtrack either, the Parliament has become too powerful and if he fucks with it, he risks civil war. That is not to mention his own dropping popularity.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Is there any actual SUPPORT for secession in eastern Ukraine?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20814
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Post by K. A. Pital »

Is there any actual SUPPORT for secession in eastern Ukraine?
Yes, when Yushekno was elected, several regional governments (Donetsk, for example) threatened to run a secession referenda. The threat is rather real. It's also because the most of Ukraine's industrial power is in the East - the most important industrial manufacturing companies.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Post by Vympel »

Including Kharkov :)

What a lovely prize that would be for the Russian MIC.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
Post Reply