Agent Smith vs Mace Windu

[Omega-13]

So your assuming Neo was slowing down the bullets,
so tell me,

Why is it, that everything else slowed down aswell?

everything was frozen, did he slow down the entire matrix?

doesn't fit,
what does fit, is a super advanced handgun, ,for a super advanced combat unit, the Agents

[Ghost Rider]

Ummm what you did was literally okay

A. Neo slowing down the HANDGUN

or

B. Some unknown, unmention Super Handgun

What does Occam's Razor tell us, again?

[Omega-13]

Ummm what you did was literally okay

A. Neo slowing down the HANDGUN

or

B. Some unknown, unmention Super Handgun

What does Occam's Razor tell us, again?

no, he slowed down everything then
the agent, the air around the bullet, ,the bullet itself, the handgun, you name it, he slowed down the entire damn place,
we never saw him do that before,
and its all assumption,

the advanced handgun fits the scenario

[Darth Wong]

So your assuming Neo was slowing down the bullets, so tell me, Why is it, that everything else slowed down as well?

It didn't. In case you didn't notice, the sunlight did not drop to one thousandth of its normal intensity.

everything was frozen, did he slow down the entire matrix?

Obviously not; there is a localized slowdown.

This also doesn't fit what does fit, is a super advanced handgun, ,for a super advanced combat unit, the Agents

Yeah sure, so why can't he kill Neo with this super-advanced 60,000 rpm handgun, when a minigun with a small fraction of that firing rate can easily overwhelm an agent?

[Omega-13]

It didn't. In case you didn't notice, the sunlight did not drop to one thousandth of its normal intensity.

why would it not? If the area around neo was slowed down, thats the light our eyes would see, and if its slowed down, it would drop, this doesn't help my point, but think about it for a moment

Yeah sure, so why can't he kill Neo with this super-advanced 60,000 rpm handgun, when a minigun with a small fraction of that firing rate can easily overwhelm an agent?

Well we all know Neo can out perform an agent, this is a classic example, he didn't even know his own potential, much like you say he , without knowing slowed down the area, well i'm saying the opposite, he without knowing, increased to a speed we can't even realize.

[Darth Wong]

It didn't. In case you didn't notice, the sunlight did not drop to one thousandth of its normal intensity.

why would it not? If the area around neo was slowed down, thats the light our eyes would see, and if its slowed down, it would drop, this doesn't help my point, but think about it for a moment

I have, but I suspect you haven't. Light intensity is defined by the number and energy of photons hitting our eyes per second. Think about that.

Yeah sure, so why can't he kill Neo with this super-advanced 60,000 rpm handgun, when a minigun with a small fraction of that firing rate can easily overwhelm an agent?

Well we all know Neo can out perform an agent, this is a classic example, he didn't even know his own potential, much like you say he , without knowing slowed down the area, well i'm saying the opposite, he without knowing, increased to a speed we can't even realize.

Since your hypothesis is more difficult to reconcile with observation than mine (particularly with regard to light intensity and the need for a 60,000rpm handgun as standard equipment for Agents even though it looks like a perfectly normal handgun and you still haven't explained how you would build a handgun to achieve this), it is clearly inferior.

[Omega-13]

ok last response before i hit the sack

1. Miscommunication, i'm saying, if the camera angle is inside the slowed down part, which it was obviously, had to be,
then the light coming through the slowed down part would hit our eyees slower, from the outter 'wall' of the area


2. The agents would need fast advanced handguns to counter people like another potential 'the one' if you remember, there was one before Neo

Also, I'd like to point out, i don't know how to build a handgun that shoots 60,000 rpm, but explain to me how you build a hyper matter reactor,

can't explain everything, just do your best to explain what you see,
we saw the deathstar blow up a planet, ,i won't ask you to tell me how the inner workings of the reactor work, cause i know you wont know

night

[Darth Wong]

ok last response before i hit the sack

1. Miscommunication, i'm saying, if the camera angle is inside the slowed down part, which it was obviously, had to be, then the light coming through the slowed down part would hit our eyees slower, from the outter 'wall' of the area

You're still missing the point; the camera won't be seeing as many photons per second if it's dramatically sped up. There might have been some acceleration (perhaps we could imagine that it's compensated for by light-enhancement?), but it's not enough. And if you look at background objects, I would be curious to know if they are accelerated to match the bullets; let's get some timed screenshots in which we can see something like a bird or similar object of known behaviour in the background while he's doing his bullet-speed thing.

2. The agents would need fast advanced handguns to counter people like another potential 'the one' if you remember, there was one before Neo

Circular logic; we know they're 60,000 rpm handguns because you would need them against people who can dodge 60,000rpm handguns ... and we know they can dodge 60,000rpm handguns because ... they got shot at by 60,000rpm handguns.

Also, I'd like to point out, i don't know how to build a handgun that shoots 60,000 rpm, but explain to me how you build a hyper matter reactor,

I can't, but I have evidence that a hypermatter reactor exists. You don't have any evidence of a 60,000rpm handgun. Worse yet, you have a handgun which happens to look and act precisely like a real, modern handgun.

can't explain everything, just do your best to explain what you see, we saw the deathstar blow up a planet, ,i won't ask you to tell me how the inner workings of the reactor work, cause i know you wont know

Except that you're not dealing with observation; you're dealing with one of two possible interpretations of an observation, and saying it must be correct even though the other one works just as well, and presents fewer problems.

In any given situation, you should always select the interpretation which gives rise to the fewest problems. If there were some way to explain Alderaan and the Death Star without invoking the hypermatter reactor or simply throwing physics to the wind completely to the wind, that would be superior. Unfortunately, there isn't, and besides, we have official literature describing it. In this case, we do have an alternate explanation which does not require these silly super-handguns, and we certainly don't have anyone talking or publishing information on these super-handguns, so why cling to them?

[Lord of the Farce]

The thing with the Agents in The Matrix is that while they can bend the rules to help them hunt down the rebels, they can only bend the rules so far. They can't ignore being 'killed' (even if it is harder than normal to do it), and besides the scenes where the perception of time goes all out of whack, they never showed any ability to accelerate the internal mechanics of their weapons.

Also, there is the matter of the Jedi's history of someone trying to sneak up and shoot point-blank (Obi-Wan takes out Zam at the bar), verses the Agent's (Agent, meet Trinity's bullet).

[Darth Wong]

By the way, Omega-13's math is shit.

He says that with a muzzle velocity of 1000 ft/s and bullets spaced 10 ft apart, the bullets are 1 millisecond apart.

Try putting that into your own calculator and see what you get: a 1000 ft/s bullet travels 10 feet in 0.01 seconds, not 0.001 seconds. Not that this matters since a handgun can't do that anyway, but I just thought I'd point it out.

By the way, a Jedi can move his whole body 1 metre in 0.04 seconds, and it takes 0.03 seconds for a 1000 ft/s shot to cover 30 feet, which means that a Jedi (in the TPM era before the shroud of the Dark Side fell) could have easily done much better than Neo in that situation. He could have gotten his whole body out of the way before the shot reached him. Assuming he's even fully tangible for the bullet to hurt him in the first place.

Omega-13, you can squirm, do bad math, and invent ridiculous super-handguns all you like, but you still lose.

[DocHorror]

Okay I haven't read all of this thread (and may be I should have) but, I didn't get the impression that Neo slowed anything down. I figured that he was just moving so fast that from his perception everything else was slowed down, therefore he could react to what ever was coming his way - eg Bullets, punches, etc...

Like when Neo shoots the agent on the roof and the agent ducks and twists out of the way (faster than the eye can see). I though Neo was just doing the same thing as the agents but better than them.

And he managed to get them with the helicopter chain gun because they couldn't twist out of the way like they did on the roof...

Am I right or horribly wrong...

[Darth Wong]

Okay I haven't read all of this thread (and may be I should have) but, I didn't get the impression that Neo slowed anything down. I figured that he was just moving so fast that from his perception everything else was slowed down, therefore he could react to what ever was coming his way - eg Bullets, punches, etc...

Except that you can't fire a handgun that quickly. Its physical mechanism won't load the next bullet into the chamber that fast. And we saw Neo slowing things down in a localized area later on, so it's canon that he can do it, although not as dramatically as he did at the end.

Like when Neo shoots the agent on the roof and the agent ducks and twists out of the way (faster than the eye can see). I though Neo was just doing the same thing as the agents but better than them.

Worse than them, actually. He got hit. He hadn't yet achieved the godlike status he would have at the end.

And he managed to get them with the helicopter chain gun because they couldn't twist out of the way like they did on the roof...

Right, which I take to mean that they can twist, but not run (Smith had a few seconds to run, but instead resigned himself to getting perforated). Definitely inferior to a Jedi at full power.

[DocHorror]

Worse than them, actually. He got hit. He hadn't yet achieved the godlike status he would have at the end.

Oops, ok I meant that by the end of the film he could do things better than the agents...

Except that you can't fire a handgun that quickly. Its physical mechanism won't load the next bullet into the chamber that fast. And we saw Neo slowing things down in a localized area later on, so it's canon that he can do it, although not as dramatically as he did at the end.

Wouldn't that just be a goof on the part of the director/SFX guy? Though I can readily agree that since guns don't work that way Neo had to have slowed the bullets as they entered his immediate vicinity.

[Omega-13]

fuck,
well, I didn't mean to do the bad math, to helpl my arguement, it was an honest mistake,

I conceed

[Moonstone Spider]

As pointed out before, these bolts were fired from a vast distance away, the Jedi still had a lot of time to position themselves. Show a jedi blocking 3 blaster bolts in 3 milliseconds, and that these blaster bolts are moving at bullet speed since they often don't, and you'll have something.

You're still not getting it; they react instinctively, BEFORE it happens. It's not a matter of reacting in 3 milliseconds; they react BEFORE the trigger is pulled. Enough sheer firepower can bring down a Jedi, especially if his use of the Force is clouded. But one combatant upon which the Jedi can focus his thoughts? Smith would be ripped to shreds.

Ah, so you fall back on the old reliable no-limits fallacy to claim that projectile speed doesn't matter at all, nor apparently do you think rate of fire matters. Funny how that didn't happen to Jango, he fought Obi-Wan to a standstill and killed at least one jedi just by shooting fast, fast enough that the Jedi couldn't block all the shots and died by the fourth one. Of course those shots weren't nearly as rapid as Agent Smith can dish out the bullets.

In the time that Smith stared stupidly at Neo waiting for him to fire that minigun, Windu could have knocked him clear out the other side of that chopper with a Force push.

I think not. If you examine the scene more closely you'll find the rotors on the helicopter are moving with astounding slowness, only a revolution a second or so, indicating that the scene was taking place in near-bullet time (Or else, as you claim, Neo or the Agents decided for no apparent reason to slow down the rotors) Unfortunately I cannot make any exact calculations of how fast time was really passing because I don't have information on rotor speed for that helicopter when hovering, nor do I have a DVD to dump it from. Suffice to say the amount of time actually passed was far less than your claiming.

Well you and all your cronies appeared to run away (although as I said some probably simply didn't read the thread, I like to give others the benefit of the doubt) and did nothing to rebut my proof, which is as close to total victory as you can get around here, particularly over Star Wars.

Oh, for fuck's sake. If you're going to start in with this fucking idiotic "last man standing is the winner" argument, then we might as well stop right now, because anyone who thinks an argument is won by simply outlasting your opponent is a fucking moron. The winner of an argument is determined by who makes the most logical points with accurate data, not by who loses interest last.[/quote]Sure, you and all your buddies lost interest in less than 3 posts by myself. I seem to recall you crowing more than once over how the likes of Gothmog ran away during debates, and talking about Trekkies running away from an Imperial Smackdown. If the thread had been 5 pages long you might have a leg to stand on, but all Warsies got bored in only 1 page? I smell something, it's apparently your favorite word.

All right, I'll call your little bluff, asshole. The one thing I hate worse than someone who plays games in a debate is someone who outright lies about the facts,

In that case I can only wonder how you've kept from comitting suicide.

and by claiming that you've inspected this scene and seen no Force-speed, you're lying. I digitized the sequence, did an inverse-telecine with VirtualDub to convert back to the original theatrical frame rate, and dumped to image sequence. Read 'em and weep, bullshitter:

Time: 0 seconds. This is before they start.

Time: 0.04 seconds. They initiate Force-speed. Notice how they've become transclucent. You can actually see the door right through Qui-Gon.

Time: 0.08 seconds. It's hard to see because they're translucent in Force-speed, but judging by Obi-Wan's saber, he's covered roughly 1 metre. To accelerate from standing start to cover 1 metre in 0.04 seconds requires acceleration of 1250 m/s^2, or more than one hundred fucking G's at a minimum. Even if the location of his sabre is misleading and he only covered 1/2 metre in that time, he would still need to accelerate at more than 60 G's.

Time: 0.12 seconds. Obi-Wan has covered another metre, which indicates that he's topped out at around 20-30 m/s (45-68 mph). That's fucking automobile highway speed, pal. And we're not just talking about moving his arm or bending his hips; we're talking about accelerating his entire body.

Time: 0.21 seconds. Notice how Qui-Gon is quite obviously transclucent in this scene; he is only visible as a shadow. Obi-Wan is almost completely invisible; if it weren't for his sabre, you wouldn't even know he's there. Now we know the ANH novelization wasn't exaggerating when it said he could become wraith-like.

Sorry, but you can only lie for so long before someone comes along and calls your bluff. Not only can Jedi Knights move at fucking highway speed and accelerate at 100 G's or more, but they can become wraith-like and partially transparent. Deal with it.

First I'd like to thank you for finally backing up your claims. I was starting to get annoyed with you for simply attacking me personally and not supplying evidence.

Then I'd like to tear apart this sad excuse for evidence you've provided. Let's talk about your notion of meters. Obi Wan's lightsaber is 52 pixels long. It seems reasonable to assume that a lightsaber is 1 meter long, it looks close to half the height of the humans, which average around 90 pixels in these images when they aren't crouching. Of course it probably isn't exactly a meter but it can't be off by more than a few centimeters so the figure will be close to accurate. Should an exact figure be available these calculations can be revised.

In a superimposition of your last image over your first, we find that the distance travelled by the bottom of Obi-Wan's Lightsaber is 113 Pixels, or about 2.17 meters. The last frame took place (according to you) 0.21 seconds after the first. So tell me, when you do the calculations what results? Highway speeds of 68mph? Hardly, we have Jedi moving roughly 11 meters a second, or about a third of your heavily inflated figures. It gives us a speed of close to 25mph. And holy crap, that's on par with an running Athlete giving your Jedi speed equal to a moderately fit normal human being, and nothing more. With Olympic athletes like Carl Lewis hitting speeds of 28mph or more, your Jedis can't even match a top-fitness human, much less an automobile.

So the question becomes, how exactly did you do your scaling Mr. Wong? Did you just make up your figures? Perhaps you are working on the assumption that Obi-Wan is 2 feet tall and his Lightsaber is around 10 inches long? Your hypocrisy is incredible Mr. Wong, you lie about your proof, then accuse me of lying and grandstand about how you hate liars? You don't bother to so much as look at the scale your images, then accuse me of not paying attention to the scene? It's almost enough to make me want to swear back at you, but I like to think of myself as a Gentlespider. Nice Imperial Smackdown Wile E. Coyote.

What point? The point where you try to pretend that in AOTC, after the Jedi have lost much of their control over the Force, they're not as formidable? That is obvious, and your refusal to admit that is nothing more than deception on your part.

Well you've been completely unable to refute that allegation, you have one quote which must be taken out-of-context to support your theory while I have multiple quotes that work in-context as well as the Novelization to back me up. Show me some real proof and, as I said before, I will admit defeat. Oh, and try to be honest this time, other people watch the movies and books and will catch it when you lie, just like I did this time.

It is not an ad-hominem attack to say that your totally false claims about TPM are "bullshit". Do you even realize what "ad-hominem" means? Or do you, like so many other ignorant morons, think it's a convenient way to dismiss any argument which is rude?

Oh yes, I'm quite familiar with the definition of Ad-Hominem. It's where you replace any real argument, for instance facts and figures, with personal attacks. Saying "He says so right here, moron!" is not an ad-hominem. Saying "Your argument is bullshit" and not providing evidence is an ad-hominem. Which catagory does your argument fit in? Nonetheless, you've finally started supplying actual proof so I withdraw my complaints.

Provide evidence or shut up.

Fuck you, asshole. You have lied outright about the evidence; it is quite obvious that you didn't even bother looking at the scene before claiming to have examined it carefully. Your Darkstyle-style misrepresentation of evidence will avail you nothing, as anyone with a copy of the movie can see that you're lying.[/quote]Geeze, I ask for evidence and you say "Fuck you Asshole." What a skilled debater you are. Of course given what we now know the evidence really says, it's easy to see why you are so reluctant to provide real proof. I was actually expecting to see some sort of super-speed come out of this, seeing your own proof that Jedi are only on par with well trained humans is a pleasant bonus.

Well if you actually had proof I'd be the first person to congradulate you and admit I'm wrong.

If you were an honest debater, you wouldn't pretend to have studied the scene and found no evidence of Force-speed when it's quite obvious you haven't even looked at it. If you were an honest debater, I wouldn't have to go through the bother of digitizing it and then throwing the proof in your face, as I just did. So put up or shut up: admit you were lying, and admit you were wrong.[/quote]I'll leave the admission of guilt to you, I'm not the retard who tried to claim they were going 68mph when they were doing around 25.

Nice Darkstar-style grandstanding. Too bad you're still nothing but a pompous bullshitter. Time to admit you lied about watching the scene and finding no evidence of Force speed.

Sure, I'll admit I was wrong. Jedi are very fast, fast enough to match a normal human being at the peak of fitness though I would hardly call it superspeed, and it's hardly on par with Matrix beings of course. So, are you willing to admit you made up your figures or will you swear at me and pretend it's an argument some more?

[Darth Wong]

In the time that Smith stared stupidly at Neo waiting for him to fire that minigun, Windu could have knocked him clear out the other side of that chopper with a Force push.

I think not. If you examine the scene more closely you'll find the rotors on the helicopter are moving with astounding slowness, only a revolution a second or so, indicating that the scene was taking place in near-bullet time

Except that rotor speed is measured in the hundreds of revolutions per minute, not thousands. I believe a Huey, for example, does about 300 rpm, or 5 revolutions per second. That means the time is only slowed down by a factor of 5. No "bullet time" here, pal. Thanks for providing the backbreaker evidence against your own claims. I normally can't count on my opponents being that stupid.

Sure, you and all your buddies lost interest in less than 3 posts by myself. I seem to recall you crowing more than once over how the likes of Gothmog ran away during debates, and talking about Trekkies running away from an Imperial Smackdown.

On a subject which they took seriously? Yes. I was not particularly interested in Matrix vs SW until you decided to crow that you were the victorious grandmaster over me. Goad someone and he'll react, dumb-ass.

Then I'd like to tear apart this sad excuse for evidence you've provided. Let's talk about your notion of meters. Obi Wan's lightsaber is 52 pixels long. It seems reasonable to assume that a lightsaber is 1 meter long, it looks close to half the height of the humans, which average around 90 pixels in these images when they aren't crouching. Of course it probably isn't exactly a meter but it can't be off by more than a few centimeters so the figure will be close to accurate. Should an exact figure be available these calculations can be revised.

I used 90-pixel height of Qui-Gon as a benchmark too. They go invisible but don't start running yet in the next frame, and then in the frame after that, they've moved roughly 50 pixels. That's slightly more than half of Qui-Gon's height, and Qui-Gon is tall.

In a superimposition of your last image over your first, we find that the distance travelled by the bottom of Obi-Wan's Lightsaber is 113 Pixels, or about 2.17 meters. The last frame took place (according to you) 0.21 seconds after the first. So tell me, when you do the calculations what results? Highway speeds of 68mph? Hardly, we have Jedi moving roughly 11 meters a second, or about a third of your heavily inflated figures. It gives us a speed of close to 25mph. And holy crap, that's on par with an running Athlete giving your Jedi speed equal to a moderately fit normal human being, and nothing more. With Olympic athletes like Carl Lewis hitting speeds of 28mph or more, your Jedis can't even match a top-fitness human, much less an automobile.

Wrong, idiot. They burn 0.04 seconds going transparent, then they move roughly 40-50 pixels in the next 0.04 seconds, which is roughly highway speed. Moreover, Obi-Wan starts with his lightsabre held in front of him, so it will naturally sweep backward as his arm carries through while he runs. It's not going to reach out farther AHEAD of him when he runs, so it's obviously possible that the last frame shows the lightsabre in a farther-back position.

But the larger point is that you cannot explain the movement of 1 metre between 0.04 seconds and 0.08 seconds, and you are interpreting the figures stupidly by A) ignoring the startup delay and B) ignoring the need for acceleration.

So the question becomes, how exactly did you do your scaling Mr. Wong?

More honestly than you.

Did you just make up your figures? Perhaps you are working on the assumption that Obi-Wan is 2 feet tall and his Lightsaber is around 10 inches long? Your hypocrisy is incredible Mr. Wong, you lie about your proof, then accuse me of lying and grandstand about how you hate liars?

Anyone can scale from frame 2 to frame 3 and see what I'm talking about. Your refusal to accept reality is not my problem, and even if your deliberately distorted scaling were correct, and they only moved 0.5 metres in 0.04 seconds, they would still need 30-50 G's of acceleration to cover that distance. No human can generate that kind of acceleration, idiot. Not even a fucking Formula One race car does 0-30 mph in 0.04 seconds, and that's if we accept your distorted scaling.

You don't bother to so much as look at the scale your images, then accuse me of not paying attention to the scene? It's almost enough to make me want to swear back at you, but I like to think of myself as a Gentlespider. Nice Imperial Smackdown Wile E. Coyote.

Sorry, but lies, ignorance of the concept of acceleration, and self-righteousness do not constitute a valid rebuttal, fucktard.

Well you've been completely unable to refute that allegation, you have one quote which must be taken out-of-context to support your theory while I have multiple quotes that work in-context as well as the Novelization to back me up. Show me some real proof and, as I said before, I will admit defeat. Oh, and try to be honest this time, other people watch the movies and books and will catch it when you lie, just like I did this time.

Anyone can see the movement from frame 2 to frame 3 to see how you've bullshitted your way to glory.

It is not an ad-hominem attack to say that your totally false claims about TPM are "bullshit". Do you even realize what "ad-hominem" means? Or do you, like so many other ignorant morons, think it's a convenient way to dismiss any argument which is rude?

Oh yes, I'm quite familiar with the definition of Ad-Hominem. It's where you replace any real argument, for instance facts and figures, with personal attacks. Saying "He says so right here, moron!" is not an ad-hominem. Saying "Your argument is bullshit" and not providing evidence is an ad-hominem. Which catagory does your argument fit in? Nonetheless, you've finally started supplying actual proof so I withdraw my complaints.

Your definition is wrong, idiot. If you say "your claims are bullshit", you are saying that someone's statement of fact is wrong. This is not an ad-hominem fallacy.

I'll leave the admission of guilt to you, I'm not the retard who tried to claim they were going 68mph when they were doing around 25.

No, you're the retard who deliberately scaled velocity using the wrong set of frames (including a frame where they hadn't started moving yet), thus underscaling the figures dramatically, and who thinks that a typical Olympic athlete can accelerate from 0 to 30 mph in 0.04 seconds when even a fucking race car can't do that. I had no idea people of such stupidity could keep their lips moving.

Sure, I'll admit I was wrong. Jedi are very fast, fast enough to match a normal human being at the peak of fitness though I would hardly call it superspeed, and it's hardly on par with Matrix beings of course. So, are you willing to admit you made up your figures or will you swear at me and pretend it's an argument some more?

More strawman fallacies. Every one of your "points" has been destroyed, and your pathetic attempt to pretend that swear-words invalidate those rebuttals is nothing more than self-righteous bullshit. I defy you to find me a human who can duplicate the movement from frame 2 to frame 3 in 0.04 seconds, idiot. For that matter, I defy you to find a race car that can accelerate from 0 to 30 mph in 0.04 seconds, never mind 0-50 mph.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I find it interesting that people choose to pick arguements with the people who RUN the message board. But those people aren't exactly the brightest bulb in the celing fan.

[Darth Wong]

It gets worse than that; I was being ridiculously over-conservative in the acceleration estimates that he derided as "inflated". In reality, to cover 0.5 metres in 0.04 seconds, you'd need to accelerate at 62.5 G's.

So who takes the cake for stupidity? The guy on my Hate Mail page who said that 72,000 G's would suck in all of the light in the universe, Timothy Jones who said that watts and joules are interchangeable, Darkstar who thinks that "gigawatts per second" are pretty much the same concept as kilowatt-hours and who doesn't understand the concept of a zoom lens, or "Moonstone Spider", who thinks that "a normal human being at the peak of fitness" can accelerate from 0 to 30mph in 0.04 seconds?

[Darth Servo]

So who takes the cake for stupidity? The guy on my Hate Mail page who said that 72,000 G's would suck in all of the light in the universe, Timothy Jones who said that watts and joules are interchangeable, Darkstar who thinks that "gigawatts per second" are pretty much the same concept as kilowatt-hours and who doesn't understand the concept of a zoom lens, or "Moonstone Spider", who thinks that "a normal human being at the peak of fitness" can accelerate from 0 to 30mph in 0.04 seconds?

Makes you wish stupidity was a crime.

[Omega-13]

You know,

hand to hand is still unsettled,

where the JEDI can use TK, ,but how much is that going to actually hurt and stop Smith?

[Ghost Rider]

Is Agent Smith as durable as a TF Droid?

If he's vulnerable to human level hits, he's screwed if Windu goes TK on him.

[Omega-13]

Is Agent Smith as durable as a TF Droid?

If he's vulnerable to human level hits, he's screwed if Windu goes TK on him.

Do you mean a super battle droid? my dog is more durable than a TF droid.

Agents have a high degree of a durability,
Morpheaus although very strong in the matrix, was easily defeated by the agent,
Neo who is even stronger and faster, didn't hurt the Agent, stunned him sure, but thats it.

[Darth Wong]

Don't be silly. A Tradefed battledroid may get carved up pretty easily by lightsabres or blown to bits by clonetrooper blaster rifles, but with an armoured body, he's basically bulletproof. Your dog isn't bulletproof, and neither is Agent Smith. Smith would be mangled by Jedi TK.

[Moonstone Spider]

Except that rotor speed is measured in the hundreds of revolutions per minute, not thousands. I believe a Huey, for example, does about 300 rpm, or 5 revolutions per second. That means the time is only slowed down by a factor of 5. No "bullet time" here, pal. Thanks for providing the backbreaker evidence against your own claims. I normally can't count on my opponents being that stupid.

Which means at most they had perhaps 0.3 seconds at most, although rotor speeds vary and I don't know the specs on that aircraft. Since no Jedi has ever done a force-push that quickly, your point is beaten.

I used 90-pixel height of the people as a benchmark. So what?

So then we can both agree that from frame 0 to frame 5 they moved only about 2.2 meters.

Wrong, idiot. They don't start moving until the second frame; they burn 0.04 seconds going transparent (oh no, it takes them a whole 0.04 seconds to do something amazing like become mostly intangible). Then they move roughly 50 pixels in the next 0.04 seconds, which is highway speed. Moreover, Obi-Wan starts with his lightsabre held in front of him, so it will naturally sweep backward as his arm carries through while he runs. It's not going to reach out farther AHEAD of him when he runs, so it's obviously possible that the last frame shows the lightsabre in a farther-back position. The point is that you cannot explain the movement of 1 metre between 0.04 seconds and 0.08 seconds, and you are interpreting the figures stupidly by A) ignoring the 0.04 second delay to go translucent and B) deliberately ignoring the 1 metre movement from frame 2 to frame 3 in order to pretend that Obi-Wan's sabre location in the last frame (where you can't see his body at all) should be used.

Doesn't wash, for your claims to be true this would indicate that from frame 3 to frame 5 they somehow only covered .1 meters despite covering a meter per frame earlier. Since we can't see their bodies we have no idea what their positions are and your supposition of arm positions is an effort to cover that up. Obi-Wan's arm is not outstretched in frame 0, it's at his waist almost vertical with his lightsaber held pointed outwards, so it will snap forwards as he runs if he leads on his left leg. The position of his robes are too ambiguous to let us know which leg he leads on but your notion that his lightsaber snapped back is merely an attempt to cover how the figures don't add up unless you ignore everyting but frames 2 and 3. That would explain why, in your first explanation, you just talked about translucency instead of wondering why obi-wan's lightsaber had moved only a few inches between frames.

You would have us believe that somehow the Jedi covered 2 meters in rougly 1/10th seconds and then only .2 meters in the next tenth. This means that at first they travelled at your absurdly expanded rate of 68mph, then immediately slowed down to about 6mph, the speed of an average human walking. Simple inertia would have made them cover more distance even if they had stopped running altogether, and it's absurd to think they decided to force-decelerate themselves and slow back down at that point. The only reasonable explanation for the absurd variance in speeds in the set of frames is that Obi-Wan swung his arm forward as he started moving, adding his torso and hand momentum together and producing a far higher figure than his body was really moving. That is why I went from first frame to last, rather than, as you did, concentrating only on two frames and glossing over the rest with comments on how the characters went transparent instead of comments on their speed.

More honestly than you.

Well that certainly explains how come you want to ignore overall speed and concentrate on just two frames where arm movement can give you a higher-than-true speed.

Anyone can scale from frame 2 to frame 3 and see what I'm talking about. Your refusal to accept reality is not my problem.

And anybody who looks past frame 3 and wonders why the Jedi lightsabers suddenly move only at a tenth the speed you're claiming can see who's really massaging the data.

Anyone can see the movement from frame 2 to frame 3 to see how you've bullshitted your way to glory.

I don't see any particular glory here, merely an attempt on both our parts to see the truth. You harp on frame 2 to frame 3, but I look at the whole scene, it's easy to see who's trying to misrepresent the evidence.

It is not an ad-hominem attack to say that your totally false claims about TPM are "bullshit". Do you even realize what "ad-hominem" means? Or do you, like so many other ignorant morons, think it's a convenient way to dismiss any argument which is rude?

Oh yes, I'm quite familiar with the definition of Ad-Hominem. It's where you replace any real argument, for instance facts and figures, with personal attacks. Saying "He says so right here, moron!" is not an ad-hominem. Saying "Your argument is bullshit" and not providing evidence is an ad-hominem. Which catagory does your argument fit in? Nonetheless, you've finally started supplying actual proof so I withdraw my complaints.

Your definition is wrong, idiot. If you say "your claims are bullshit", you are saying that someone's statement of fact is wrong. This is not an ad-hominem fallacy.[/quote]It is if you provide no proof that my claims are wrong. I'll drop this subject now since I've already withdrawn my statements.

No, you're the retard who deliberately scaled velocity using the wrong set of frames (including a frame where they hadn't started moving yet) and who carefully selected the frames in order to reduce the figure by ignoring the fact that peoples' arms move when the run. I had no idea people of such stupidity could keep their lips moving.

Oh please, I'll admit adding in the first frame was a clear mistake on my part but you are the one using arm movement to gain unrealistically fast speeds. There is no reasonable explanation for them to be going 10 times more slowly after frame 3 as before, but arm movement (which you've lied about by claiming Obi-Wans arm was outstretched when it is clearly hanging at his side) provides a perfectly rational explanation for his lightsaber to be faster between frames 2 and 3 than his body.

More strawman fallacies. Every one of your "points" has been destroyed, and your pathetic attempt to pretend that swear-words invalidate those rebuttals is nothing more than self-righteous bullshit. I defy you to find me a human who can duplicate the movement from frame 2 to frame 3 in 0.04 seconds, idiot.

Ah? And where have I said that your crude language invalidates your statments? I simply haven't let you replace proof with profanity as you want to. I haven't even suggested you shouldn't swear, I've merely repeatedly asked for you to prove your points, which of course you have responded to by swearing at me. As for the rest of your argument, sure, any professional baseball player can move their arm at speeds in excess of 100 mph, far faster than Obi-Wans arm was here. Since Obi-Wan is invisible for most of your proof it's obviously going to be difficult find a human who can look like he did, unless perhaps I go after David Copperfield or Lance Burton. At any rate this is a real strawman on your part as their exact movement doesn't matter a bit, it's how fast they are moving that actually is being debated. Nice Try. As for your claim that you've rebutted me, all you've done is try to insist that only frame 2 and 3 matter and that the rest of the clip is irrelavent.

So for my last bit of evidence here let's consider arm positions. You've already started lying, trying to claim that Obi-Wan's arm was outstretched, but it's possible to tell, even when Obi-Wan is completely invisible, where his arm and body are to each other from the lightsaber. You can simply pick up a stick and hold it in your hand like a lightsaber, and notice that if your hand is behind you, the stick (Or in Obi-Wan's case the lightsaber) will naturally point towards the ground with the back end higher. If your hand is ahead of your body, the lightsaber will point upwards. While there is some room for wrist twisting, unless you want to rotate your entire arm in an mildly painful way you can't get more than a few degrees of movement. In any case, if the arm is in fact behind or ahead the back (Hand) end of the lightsaber will be noticably higher than if his arm is straight down at his sides.

In the first image we can clearly see that the Lightsaber is at an angle of 5 degrees and the back end is higher than the front. This suggests his arm is slightly behind him but 5 degrees is well within the range of motion for a wrist, it could just be hand position. At any case his hand is clearly not ahead of his body.

By the last frame we can see that the lightsaber's angle is several times greater, and now the lightsaber points towards the ceiling and it's back end is far above the back end when his hand was at the start. In addition the base of the lightsaber is at about 100 pixels from the top, the same height as Obi-Wan's shoulder (95 pixels) when he is visible. This indicates that in frame 5 Obi-Wan's arm is stretched almost full-extension in front of himself, and thus we can easily trim the length of his arm (30 pixels) from our estimate of total distance travelled in the entire sequence. That gives us a total distance of 83 pixels, that's right considerably less than the height of the characters. Allowing for the 50-pixel meter that gives us a total-distance crossed of 1.66 meters total, or about 9 meters a second. In addition, if we look at his excessive speed frames, by 4 when Obi-Wan is visible again we can quite clearly see that his arm is outstretched, and the angle of the lightsaber indicates that Obi-wan's arm is also outstretched, proving that his vast speed is not movement but his arm extending as he takes his first step. In order for Mike Wong's speed to be true and for them to have crossed several meters, Quai-Gonn and Obi-Wan would have to be vastly taller than Michael Jordan. In reality they did not even reach two meters by the end of the sequence, much less by the third frame, proving that their total "Force Speed" is only about on par with an average track runner, possibly high-school level. Once Arm-Movement is taken into consideration they aren't even exceptional athletes anymore.

[drifter god]

i just have one thing to point out, now i havent read all of this yet, i think i will, but from what i see so far, is what always happens, you people get so bent on your side of the arguement that the arguement loses its seriousness, we dont need to fight about this, and if your proven wrong, just accept it, feel enlightend or something, you dont need to drag out your wrong points when we could discuse something better.